RUGreek,

I understand that you find me being highly offended by your comments amusing. To address you not being the only who authored that muslim women are being oppressed by the headscarf, I am only addressing what YOU said, and not what the BBC or other European publications wrote about. You did not separate muslim women from certain countries that actually do oppress their women by making them wear the hijab (like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran) from other muslim countries like Egypt, Eastern Africa, Malaysia, Indonesia as well as western Africa. That's your bad. You overgeneralised muslim women everywhere with your comment. In case you misunderstand me some more, I did see that you were making an analogy (a fucked up one at that). You went further to insult all muslim brothers by stating that they oppress their women, when in fact, that is incorrect. I will let you do your own research on that. you also said :

again, you generalized and did not make specific WHO you were talking about exactly. I am assuming in European countries, "free" (and I use this word loosely) and democratic countries. You suggest that women are not free-thinking people and insult their intelligence as well as make them out to be the type of people the wear their religious garb to spite others. I find this comment bigotted (feel free to be amused here).

Again, who is oppressing who here? These countries, while liberating those who did not wear the hijab out of choice, are actually OPPRESSING those who do by denying them basic rights to education.

BTW, in all the schools, lectures, conference about Islam that I have attended over the years, I have been taught to respect fellow Christians and Jews, and I have never made a deragatory comments (as you have, even though you think you did not) like you have about either religions. We share more than you would like to believe.
Hon, I grew up in both worlds..and at least I know the truth. I still would not insult all free practicing muslims out there (and there are many) with comments like all hijabis are oppressed by fanatics. I have a mother who is a hijabi, sisters who are hijabis, friends, and acquantances (from differeny parts of the world) who are all hijabis..and your comment really does make it personally, whether I would like to or not.


I will call you out on your insulting remarks...and you can be amused all you want...


BTW, I did not imply that you were a Christian but instead giving you a comparison to another religion for reference. But that point has been lost on you.


Peace

You are trying to pick a fight..and digress from the offensive comments that RUGreek posted...and frankly, it's not working :-)

Nice try though.

The only thing amusing me now is that you are looking for an argument rather than a discussion. Nobody here (including myself) was trying to offend you or your people. I don't understand why you are picking a fight, but maybe you've been a victimized recently and looking for a scapegoat. Enough lecturing, the problem now is that you want to twist my words and make them fit your irrational propositions...

I think you should use common sense when posting. I was speaking indirectly of the oppressed muslim women. If you couldn't understand that, that is your bad. Nobody else was confused by reading it.

No, i think you are the one that is incorrect. One, I said extremists and fundamentalists oppress women. That does not mean all. My analogy is straight and to the point. Sorry you fail to see the simplicity of its message, but that goes back to my common sense remark.

Again, I said extremists and fundamentalists, are you seriously not understanding the specific who in this post? And where have I even suggested let alone said that women are not free-thinking people? Do you read before you type on here?

How does the prevention of wearing a headscarf deny a person the right to education? You yourself say that those who choose not to wear it are being liberated. If that's the case, then the only thing being denied is a religious issue. School should be a place for the free exchange of ideas and thoughts without the intimidation or pressure of any religious group. I think the headscarf ban is trying to balance those interests and not oppress muslim women. I think its important to understand the reasons and justifications behind this new law before attacking it on personal grounds.

I respect that and glad to hear those values are being taught at Islamic-sponsored events. Unfortunately, there is also a large population of islamics that promote the hate and destruction of the fellow christian and jewish cultures. I know you believe I have made here a negative comment about you or your religion. In reality, I've only attacked the people that are giving your religion a bad name and face. I hope someday you will come to understand where I am coming from.

Forgive me if I don't automatically believe you when you imply you grew up in a muslim country. Growing up in both worlds has a fuzzy meaning to it. I asked if you grew up in a muslim country. Some people would say a muslim family or local community counts as a "world." Did you live in one of the middle eastern muslim country's?

If that was the message you wanted me to ponder, you chose the wrong way to bring it out. After running through a post trying to insult me and my opinions the last thing you should expect is that I would switch gears and try to compare this headscarf issue with the fact that nuns wear them too. It's off topic and off point with regards to this discussion. The fact that you find the law against headscarves oppressive is a consequence of its effect on the repressed. Which is better, to repress those that do not want to wear it or force all to wear it against their wishes?

You talked earlier of choice, but you also know that many of these women are being forced to wear the headscarves without a choice. This law gives them the opportunity to attend school without feeling repressed or different.

How would you feel if you were forced to wear one when you did not want to?

No I corrected you because you had trouble reading.

Anyway, back to head scarves: Even if you're not forced to wear it physically, often there can be an emotional hold over you. I would venture to guess that if that emotional hold was lifted, many less women would wear it. Yes many women wear it by choice, but many are physically forced to and many are "pressured" to.

The strangest thing I ever saw with a hijab was in south beach, Florida. I'm on the beach and there are gorgeous topless women near us. I look next to me and I see a Muslim woman. I say to myself, wow how strange because the weather is extremely hot and she's not just wearing a hijab but a full covering of the body. But then there is her husband and son in bathing suit and the husband himself is gazing quite intently at the topless women. That is an example of the emotional hold. The law in America provides freedom for this woman not to wear it, but she's somehow locked into it while her husband gazes at naked women.

Whether or not certain religions and cultures want to dress a certain way is up to them. It is the unofficial hold combined with how it only dictates how women should dress, that bothers me.

-Rudey

I think going back to your previous would help you see why your bigotted comments might offend someone. Here is a fine example of you devaluing the symbolism of the Hijab. Now, reading your other posts..I see that you said that you were only talking about those countries that do oppress their women and muslim men who bla bla bla..but dear, your initial statement does not state that you were talking about a select few. 90% of your following posts were superficialand only attempting to paint me as having a faulty logic, having irrational conclusions and lacking no COMMON SENSE...when in fact, that you are the one who did not make yourself clear and painted yourself as an ignorant bigot.

again ignorant comment



in school only? you mean that muslim women wear the hijab just to school .....to scare catholic and jewish groups . Really, honestly..you are talking about me being irrational here ...but just have a look at the comments you throw around.




RUGreek, trust, I am quite vocal about women's issues ..especially when it comes to Islam. Your comment would be seen as ignorant, if not derogatory or bigotted by other muslims. You give way too much credit to fundamentalists and Extremist, and play into the fact that it represents such a large portion of our population. I would suggest that you stop reading propoganda and go "edumucate" yourself before you run at the mouth. BTW, there is no such thing as "islamics"..lol..you just bought into another one of those CNN creations. I have not been "victimized" for my religious affiliations, again an attempt to belittle me and make your opinions much more superior than mine, and its really not working. And before you make yourself sound more ignorant than you already are....I did grow up in two muslim countries...and two secular countries. Like I said, I am a bit of both worlds..quite literally.

I am not surprised that you still consider my posts bigotted, but you have a right to that opinion of course. I tried my best to explain things clearly and slowly for you, but you still choose to write back with immature statements.

My posts connect perfectly with the news article's regarding the headscarf ban. The reasons they decided to ban them are the same reasons I stated. You obviously do not agree with them, but still do not offer a different point of view. Instead, you would prefer to attack my statements so that you don't have to come up with a better explanation.

I even explained why you were wrong with interpreting my post, and you don't even have the guts to reply to them but instead go back to my original post and just call it "an ignorant comment." Well at least I know how to reply to someone, which is more than I can say about you right now:)

The headscarf ban only applies in school to the teachers, therefore you should limit your attacks to that area. Nobody is banning them outside of school, so don't get your panties in a bunch... You can still do whatever you want on the streets.


Again, would you like to tell me which middle easter muslim country you lived in and for what period of time in your life? You seem to be avoiding to answer anything I say clearly. Now it sounds like you lived in 4 separate countries, so which ones are they?

lol@RUGreek.

Your posts are bigotted. But you know, you can believe that they dont have the right to offend anyone...if it helps you sleep better at night.

I will limit my attacks to the original topic, only if you limit your derogatory comment, 'k.


as to the countries I resided in are confidential information. You can PM if you like to find them out, but I choose not to post that personal information, 'k.

I understand and can respect that if you don't want to disclose.

I sleep fine at night, the last thing on my mind (and hopefully on yours) is the random threads that people post on an internet chat board...

Hey, at least I got you laughing, so we are both amused at this ridiculous bickering ;)

Attack me if you like, but I can't walk on eggshells with everyone when they are oversensitive to greek chat comments. So I can't promise that things I say won't offend you in the future, but I can warn you to ask questions before ranting and making a fool out of yourself again.

http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/wink/thumb.gif mkay?

off topic, if you're in bed with a guy, does talking dirty offend you too?

(ok, maybe that was pressing some buttons, but I still think you need to chill out)

Let's look at it this way:

How do you know that the girls under 18, especially very young girls, are wearing hijabs out of CHOICE? I don't think an 8 year old can tell her parents that she doesn't want to wear one because she just plain doesn't want to all the time. If her parents say that all women in the family must wear a hijab, then she probably has to wear it until she's out of the house. I know that I wasn't allowed to quit piano when I was 8. My grandmother picked out my clothes every morning until I was 10! And the clothes she picked were awful, because she wouldn't let me wear skirts and dresses to school except for picture day, days when the school went to Mass, and Remembrance Day and Thinking Day, when I wore my Brownie or Girl Guide uniform.

Anyways...http://www.soundvision.com/Info/news/hijab/disc.asp


Hijab Battles
Around the World
by Pamela Taylor

Tayyibah, St. Paul Minnesota. Fatima, Creil, France. Samira, Algiers, Algeria. What do these women have in common? They are all Muslim, and they've all had a run-in with the law.

Their crimes, you ask? Wearing Hijab, or the Islamic head scarf. Worldwide there seems to be a growing consensus that a few yards of cloth on a woman's head, especially if it covers part or all of her face, is a threat to education, women's rights, public security and even to freedom of religion itself.



Another link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3708444.stm


A 15-year-old French Muslim girl has beaten the ban on Islamic headscarves in schools by shaving her head.