When was the last time you checked? What did you check? And what the fuck does this have to do with what I said?

A couple years ago this happened at Brown University. Two kids got drunk, had fun, and because the girl was drunk it didn't matter if the guy was. He was kicked out (or left after immense pressure) and his life was ruined. What a load of crock.

Now I don't know what happened. I think most of you don't either. But I think I'll wait before I just randomly throw out a nasty word like rape out there.

-Rudey

Being drunk isn't a defense to a crime though. It may go towards showing the intent, but it's not a defense.

Which in this sort of situation makes the water a little murky

Society tends to put the burden on the males, because they commit higher proportions of the rapes.

I wasn't trying to make it a defense. I'm saying if both people are impaired and both make the decision, then I don't understand why only one person is punished or if any even should be.

-Rudey

I had to delete a few recent posts in this thread. Please play nice or I'm going to have to take out a big ol' lock. ;)

I think Rudey brings up a good point. We all jumped the gun immediately to blame the guy. Our first thoughts were "OMG THE JERK".

But I agree with kddani - being drunk *and both individuals were* does not excuse a crime. If we all agree that some sort of crime was committed.

Its like if you're drunk and you shoot somebody. Guess what....when you get sober the next day - you still shot somebody! I'm not saying we should throw the book at this guy and he should get 20 years either.

The only reason I mentioned someone beating him up is b/c :

a.) I would like to see two men beat the living crap out of each other. I find it entertaining - especially when one of the guys deserves it.

b.) I would like to hear James story of beating the guy up *it just would have been beautifully written*

c.) If it were me in the story- my guy friends would have already taken care of this. The moment I even mentioned something like that happening I would have a car full of boys on the way to take care of this guy. Whether I would want them too or not.

Likewise, the legal standard for mental capability to 'consent' (used in the legal sense here) does not change based on gender. That would be horrifically unconstitutional (see: Italy's "no rape in jeans" law for an example).

Unfortunately, the 'spirit' of the law argument tends to carry the day here - practice is slightly different than principle.

THANK YOU.

Update:

She called her friend, the one that left her there and told her the story.

Her friend was really pissed about it and called her boyfriend and read him the riot act. The BF is an officer in that fraternity.

The BF said that the brother she had been with was bragging and telling everyone what a freak she was in bed. In other words, a very different story than her experience.

So as of now, the BF said that he was going to try and get a written apology from the guy to be read in front of chapter as well as delivered to my friend.

We shall see if the guy actually does that. I would be surprised.

In defense of her friend, the girl that left her, she is a real "frat rat." I don't know if you know the type, but its the kind of girl that hangs out with one specific fraternity chapter, often dating one of its members, and thinks the rest must be saints because they tolerate and are nice to her.

So she figured that my friend must be safe with these guys because they were all from that fraternity chapter.

Anyway, thats where we are ao far. What do you think?

Granted we're all hearing this second-hand so we have no idea what has actually been said by the guy but if this is the attitude he has, then I definitely believe that a written apology is in order. And I still stand by my belief that he needs to see a counselor (even if it's just one session) and present an educational to his entire chapter about Rape. If he can change even just a few guys' attitudes about it, then it would help. It's going to be difficult because his fraternity brothers are more likely going to believe him over a "drunk chick" that many of them may not know personally. (I know that's not always the case, but I'm just being realistic.)

I hope your friend is doing okay as she continues to process what happened.

well i was on the fence about whether or not he should be charged with rape. now i'm definately in support of him going to prison. a$$hole!

shelley j
sigma k

Rage is hardly a reason to put someone away lol.

james,
you know where i'm coming from on this. we've discussed it.

shelley j
sigma k

I think the written apology is pointless. Most likely it won't be sincere. He obviously thinks he was studdly duddly. It won't change what happened to her or that night. I like ISUKappa's idea of some type of programming about aquaintance rape and alcohol use, counseling, and let him do community service at a rape crisis center,or shelter for abused women. Jail time hasn't worked for those there already I doubt it would do a thing for him.

maybe yall are right, but it doesn't seem like much will make this guy be remorseful about what he did. how bout he gets raped, and i don't mean by a woman. maybe that will make him sorry for doing that to her.

shelley j
sigma k

James, I think that the guy is a jerk and that you should kick his ass.

Yep, maybe - then again, we don't really need to "follow the legal system" or "promote rehabilitation rather than humiliation" do we?

And no one's even addressed the point that Rudey raised . . .

Rob, are you referring to this?
If what James posted is true about the guy going around telling how "freaky" this girl was in bed, then, in my opinion, he is admitting he was coherent as to what was going on and couldn't have been as drunk or messed up. If he is completely lying about the entire incident (meaning he was as drunk or messed up) then not only is he disrespecting this girl, he's also doing more harm to himself by saying what he's saying. I'll admit, I'll never fully understand how guys work, but why not just say "I was completely trashed and I don't really know what happened" and leave it at that.

Sincere or not, I think a letter of apology is helpful -- it makes the guy put into concrete words what happened and it can help alleviate the guilt felt by the girl (if she feels any). I know I would have appreciated a written letter of apology.

Okay, so question for the men: If an incident like this occurred in your chapter house and you know what really happened (let's say the guy had been drinking but wasn't wasted, he knew what he was doing, the girl was incoherent and could not give consent at all), how would you deal with it? What would you like to see be done about it? What would help to lessen the chances of something like this happening again?

It's not up to you to restrict his freedom of speech.

You haven't addressed the fact that he may have been in the same physical state as her and both took on a risk to make decisions they wouldn't normally take when they put that liquor to their lips.

-Rudey

While I def agree with most of this point, and there's really little to no doubt the kid is a piece of crap (assuming the story is correct as told..), these arguments have little to do with the legal basis for rape.

I was playing devil's advocate here - garbage like "HE SHOULD BE RAPED TOO!" ignore a fundamental flaw in logic: if he was intoxicated as well, then by legal standard he was most likely 'raped' as well. Now, we can argue until we're blue in the face that the ramifications of this are different for males vs. females, but it is pretty weak to drop the things that alphaiota did.

It's a slippery slope, and that was my point - the kid's (douche-like) actions nonwithstanding.

I agree, and I disagree. A letter of apology seems like appeasement, while I generally prefer active methods of attempting to 'solve' the issue. I guess I would prefer some action to be taken that requires the dude to learn/improve, whether that be some sort of ridiculous "sensitivity training" or more likely some sort of 'scared straight' class. Who knows, but I greatly prefer active solutions to writing a letter.

It's hard to say - usually if it were 'that bad' then someone would pull the guy aside and say something, generally the president or VP of risk management. Essentially, we have both a reputation and legal standing to maintain, and if a guy is putting either at risk, he'd be facing some consequences, whether social, legal, or judicial. Honestly, though, I'd hope that it would never come to that; hopefully preventative measures would lessen that risk. I'd hope.

I wouldn't say anything nor would I like to see something done about it, if you did it'd be inviting a hell storm. In my view it wasnt rape, the girl knew what she was doing even before (even if you actually think she was incoherent) it all went down. I mean c'mon....she LEFT with the GUY. Thats screaming...I wanna fuck you or do some other crazy sexual act. Chicks don't leave a party/club with you to go home and just talk.....especially drunk chicks. To lessen the chances of something like that happening with the guy again...I'd talk to him about it.

Does the legal definition say anything about who instigates the act? Just curious if even though the guy was just as messed up but he was still the instigator if that would have any affect on the charge. I understand what you're saying completely otherwise.
The letter of apology would be in addition to counseling and/or educational training. Solely for the woman's benefit that the guy acknowledges what happened probably shouldn't have. Likewise, I think the friend that left her alone in that situation should have to write her one, too.

See, and it's this kind of attitude that creates these situations in the first place. She left with this guy because her friend left her. That does not automatically mean she agrees to do the nasty, especially when she's blacking out to the point where she can't remember most of the things that occurred past a certain point in the night. I've kissed a lot of guys when I was drunk, that didn't mean I wanted to sleep with them.

Yea, but how many times have you left and went home with the first time you met them and actually just sat there kissing and did nothing else while you were drunk?

Correction according to James' friend version she didn't leave just with the guy, she left with the guy AND a designated driver.The minute she got in that car she had no control of where they would take her Even if she had said "Hey take me home", the designated driver still took her to the guy's place. . Because she was in and out of consciousness, she has no idea if she just had sex with one or two guys.

Cashmoney your analogy that her alleged actions were "screaming I wanna fuck you" that still doesn't get the guy off of the hook. It's as if you're also saying that if a woman wears a provacative outfit anywhere that gives any guy the right to rape her because she is wearing that type of outfit that gave him "the signals" that it was okay.

Quite a few, which I guess makes me a bitch and a tease.

Thats a bit extreme....but when a girl wears really provocative stuff, wtf do you think she's doing? She isnt stupid...she knows that guys will be swarming on her like flies on shit. Besides....who said anything about rape here? Rape is totally different from having drunk sex when you're really wasted and then feeling shitty a few weeks later.

And I bet they kicked you out once they figured out you werent coming up off the ass. I know I would've. ;)

nice, i'm a bitch and a tease too! this is exciting news! :D

Actually, in the legal definition, Rape is intercourse of any kind where one party does not give consent. I think any lawyer would agree that blacking out would constitute an inability to give consent. That doesn't mean all acts of drunk sex are rape. Lord knows I've done it plenty of times while I was drunk, but in all of those times, save one, I was a consenting adult.

Personally I'd like to see him have the living-sh*t kicked out of him.... but in reality we would probibly try to ensure his personal safety while we waited for the cops (that we would call) to take the sack of shit away - while filling out the paperwork to revoke his membership.

How do you lessen the chances of something like this happening? Simple - don't recruit pieces of shit who think that this is "cool"...

Couple of times actually... along with quite a few members of the chapter... I guess were old-fashioned with that whole make sure our guests get home safe and sound, whether they're drunk or sober - guess it comes from trying to recruit gentlemen.

Time-out. Say it was one of your best friends as well as chapter members. Would your response be the same? I am not criticising you, I am just wondering if it was less abstract if you think you would have the same response.

I wouldn't be in a fraternity if I thought the brothers would turn me in to the cops if I did something questionable. Who in their right mind would? :rolleyes:

PErsonally.

I mostly go with alphagam-alums viewpoint. As a teen-ager I would have thought it as rape, a literal intepretation. As I have seen more of the world, I know there are more gray areas.

Opinions of the issue have been divided in half. Most of the guys I have spoken to and lesser part of the girls view it like alphagam-alum. It was a bad situation that doesn't merit a label such as rape.

The majority of the girls and a minority of the guys view it as just plain rape.

Interesting split.

ETA: I know there are a lot of gray areas and it was definitely a very bad situation that could have been avoided one way or another. But I really feel that both the guy and the girl need to understand what happened really probabaly shouldn't have and why. Especially since you say this guy is now going around bragging about the incident. Maybe your friend doesn't think it is a really big deal, I don't know what her personal feelings are, but we really need to educate people to keep them from having the attitude that cashmoney described because it's really only increasing problems. I know a lot of people do have that attitude, both male and female and since so many people already have the opinion that more rape occurs in Fraternity houses, anything we can do to counteract that opinion is worth it.

edited because I didn't feel comfortable with that much personal information out there.

For those that wonder if she would have just had sex with him anyway, assuming she was less drunk. . . . Well, we will never know because that wasn't the situation.

Although she doesn't make a habit of one night stands.

By all accounts the guy was drinking, but not seriously drunk.

To me it seems that he views himself as a bit of a cocksman. She got to the party really wasted and he attached himself to her right away, and hung out with her all-night. Classic strategy. Something i never had the attention span for.

Target of opportunity. Its not exactly noble, but its not exactly uncommon. And if that were the extent of it, oh well.

However, I think as a matter of respect he should have refrained from having sex with a girl that messed up.

Certainly I have desisted with girls much less visibly impaired than that. (somewhat to my regret :p)

I think this is a failure in a social situation and not something that requires legal intervention.

I think its a lesson for her on trust and vulnerability. And should be a lesson for him on respect and manners.

His subsequent bragging is immature, and also misplaced.

If it doesn't speak well of you to brag about having sex with an ugly girl, it certainly doesn't speak well of you to brag about carnal knowledge off a girl thats passed out.

It has about much status as bragging about copping a feel from your mom. Maybe you enjoyed it, but telling anyone is stupid and liable to gross us out.

Since her friend and her fraternity boyfriend brought it up, I think she deserves an apology. Now that its been mentioned it would be even more rude for him to refuse to do it.

ITs been a few days and no apology has happened yet, and her friend as well as her friend's BF have not brought it up.

This isn't nearly my area of 'expertise', and it would definitely vary from state to state, and I'm 100% sure the judicial review is light to non-existent - that said, "instigation" is a slippery slope, and I think you'll find it hard to express instigation in this sort of way. There's the omnipresent specter of "but I was drunk too!" in this - and the requirement that the rules be the same across the board.

Again - I was just playing devil's advocate, as this thread has evoked massive emotion from some people, even while we don't know the specifics of the situation beyond the sparse info James has given us to promote discussion. I get that, it's a hot-button issue, and one I wish people wouldn't have to have experience with, but it's a bit over the top. There are so many different sides to this, it's hard to even know where to start, so I'm just trying to fill in a few of the blanks.


That's fair enough - I'm all for things that help the victim, even if only via some sort of token gesture (sometimes that's all it takes to start the wheels in motion). I guess that it's hard to draw the line between what should involve education or etc, and what should constitute jail time - that's definitely way beyond me to decide.

ETA: (remove pointless paragraph that james just addressed)

FWIW, even though I believe it to be rape in the definition of the terms, I don't feel the guy should be prosecuted or given jail time. I feel education is more proper channel of dealing with him, especially given the attitude and personality James has told us this guy has. Hopefully, if enough of his brothers feel what he did was reprehensible, it would serve to possibly change his actions.

i probably shouldn't even be replying to this, but i think it's wrong for you to say that my post was weak. i obviously wasn't serious. and if you took it seriously, then you're pretty weak. i'm angry about what james posted concerning his response to the whole situation.
i'm done with this thread. not worth it for me to read this crap and get angry. so i'm signing off this thread for good. peace!

shelley j
sigma k

ps - james, in the future, don't ask for my opinion on these types of threads since they obviously are going to be bashed and disrespected.