I would look at two scenarios. There is one where a greek system exists, and then loses recognition. Most GLOs will maintain chapters at these schools, unless the climate and/or chapter dramatically deteriorates.

Then there are schools that prohibit GLOs, have none, and then the interest to start a system emerges. In this scenario we have schools like Amherst, Brandeis, Georgetown, Harvard, and Princeton that now have greek systems. All of these schools, except for Brandeis, had greek systems at one time. Of these schools, all had banned social GLOs and had none before GLOs began to reemerge. There has also been the possible emergence of a single Delta Psi chapter at Williams, as well as unsuccessful colonization efforts at Fordham, Notre Dame and (maybe) West Point over the last 15 years. GLOs are willing to roll the dice on these schools because they are prestigious. These schools produce far more alumni who pad "famous alumni" lists. When alumni from top tier schools get involved with their GLOs at the national level, they are (on average) more effective than other leaders from lesser schools. This makes an entire GLO better.

So, in the case where an underground greek system is emerging, the caliber of the school is evaluated. Janerz222 can let us know if her chapter provided Theta with grades, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way.

As far as other schools go, my fraternity currently has our Massachusetts Beta chapter at Brandeis. They are a great bunch of guys. Brandeis University's charter prohibits fraternities. The greek system is about 15 years old. We've been chartered there for 11 years. Aside from the ability to check grades and a mutually supportive relationship with the school, there is little difference between being chartered at Brandeis or Brown.

Student membership requirements are not an issue at this caliber of schools. The students are extremely busy with other activities on campus, as well as studying. Many of the students at these schools live their collegiate lives on campus, and don't have the time to make the effort to associate with students at other schools. These schools also have few, if any, part time students.

GPA is just not a big issue at these types of schools. The students who go there already have great time management skills. Some lose their focus and fail out, but not at the same rate of lesser schools. I don't know what our Brandeis chapter's GPA is. It could be 0.8. I do know that most of their brothers go onto grad school, so they must be doing something right in the classroom.

With regard to risk management issues, they face similar issues that chapters at other elite schools face. Risk management issues are not enforceable at Brandeis, except that the school likes to let the Waltham police know where partys will be. Schools like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Stanford, Swarthmore, and W&L (and others) basically look the other way. Having greek system recognition at elite private schools is no guarantee for risk management compliance. These schools have alumni who make tons of money, donate tons of money, and like to have a few beers when they visit campus. Hazing at these schools, when it occurs, is not questioned by the administrations if specific incidents are not known.

It comes down to a basic cost/benefit analysis. Its worth chartering at Princeton and other top tier schools.

Would you happen to know what groups tried to colonize at these schools?

Frankly, I would be quite surprised - in a good way mind you - if any of the service academies were to allow GLOs. Not so much Notre Dame or Fordham.

Wow--you just summed up W&L. Good job, Russ. I'm actually impressed because very few people seem able to understand the situation here.

Way to show support of your fellow Greeks - by accusing them of throwing out their chapter standards.

And as far as alums from top tier schools being more effective leaders on a national level and making the GLO "better" - well, we just saw an alum from a top tier school basically saying she wouldn't give a shit if her school's whole system croaked. Would you pick her for an alum position over someone who went to Western Illinois simply because she went to Brown? (Munchkin, this is not picking on you - just using a very apropos example) Maybe this is true of fraternities, but it's not true of sororities.

Well, chances are the Ivy alum won't go out for a major alum position.

I think people care if the system croaks and I think they would be supportive, but I don't know alumni of too many schools that think that greek life is the end all, be all of their undergraduate experience.

Truthfully, I don't know what it's like to tail-gate, I don't know how it feels being with all your alumni in the same stadium and using the same cheer, and I also don't know what it's like to be in a huge 200 man chapter and have so much of my student life center around being Greek. Thus my experience and loyalty, as it is for many others, is to the school.

Regarding grades at the chapter, I have a feeling that people won't push them as much at a school like Princeton. It's not saying that the standard should be thrown out, but perhaps GPA plays less of a role on this campus and perhaps there already is a standard - entrace into the school. But then again, I'm not in a sorority and I don't know if these are things you girls do at every chapter across the nation.

-Rudey

Oh Rudey, I completely understand what you and Munchkin are saying. I think it's the same concept of feeling more for your chapter than the sorority/fraternity as a whole. I was just pointing out the fallacy that solely because someone comes from a school with higher admission standards, they will improve the GLO as a whole. That's kind of like if someone gets a high school coaching position simply because they played at Penn State instead of, say, Clarion. Just because Penn State is in the Big 10 doesn't mean the person will know their ass from their elbow as far as motivating and directing kids.

My chapter usually has the #1, #2 or #3 GPA in Pi Phi every term and we usually battle it out with the chapters at Stanford and Yale for that. I'm trying to remember if the Princeton chapter's grades are listed in the Arrow. I feel like they are maybe.

Anyway, the above shows that chapters at the elite Universities usually have better grades anyway. Maybe that's grad inflation, but who knows?

Thanks for putting words in mouth. I'm not suggesting that GLOs at schools like Princeton are throwing out chapter standards. I do believe that GPA and membership rules are superfluous because, as Rudey pointed out, the school's admissions office (as well as the campus culture) has already taken care of these concerns. These standards are implicit, and don't need oversight.

I have VERY direct involvement with Santa Clara and our TRULY REMARKABLE VOLUNTEER Panhellenic Advisor is a member of Delta Delta Delta! She's really been an integral part of our being able to build a cooperative and thriving greek community in Santa Clara!!!

I don't think P-ton is going to be very impressed by your English and Grammatical skills, Earp.

I go to Snobby Catholic U. :cool:

An Ivy alumna is quite involved with my sorority in both our local alumnae association and internationally. :)

That's why I said, "chances are."

In my experience, which comes from not only being a collegiate at an Ivy chapter, but having helped out with another, there is not nearly as much alumnae involvement than at other schools.

But, what do I know?

EXACTLY.

We used to laugh at the national requirement that stated that the minimum to rush was 2.0, and to stay in was a 1.5. Anyone who had a 1.5 GPA would have more to worry about than getting kicked out of their sorority--by that point, they would have been KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL.

Basically, my alma mater's academic standards were (and still are) higher than the national organization's.

Wait.... do some colleges not have an automatic rule? As in, at some places, you're not kicked out of school if you GPA gets too low? Or am I misinterpreting your remark?

Yes, we had a rule about that. But, our threshhold was higher than that of our national organization, and I think NPC for that matter. Therefore, the organization's standards were lower than our own.

We have an automatic rule too. I just wasn't aware some colleges didn't have it.

I don't know the specifics of our automatic rule.... We've never had anyone have a problem with it.

Hm GP you read my email to them. Oh yes made a copy on it here. Maybe just a snide innuendo for the egg heads? Oh maybe self inguldgent poops of scooper fame?

Well, maybe they are scratching their heads? Maybe they are thinking. Oh, I guess that is not any thing for Those type of Schools, maybe not Holier Than Thou as Yours is, but still egotistical to the same point?

Just give me a good old public school where you are a name not a number as in much larger schools that seemingly having THE PRESTIGE of us poor State Schools such as mine and many others.

A school Degree only gets you in the door, one must prove ones self in the real world.:)

Um my public school was larger than my private school so good try there. And I already have job offers, so I don't think I'm worried about proving myself in the real world.

I'm just saying, Princeton doesn't care what 90% of this country thinks - and they don't have to.

Fantabulious!:cool:

Still stand by if you have not been in the real world, Diploma, gets you in the door, but job approval has to be earned.

What does your public school have to do with anything?

Did you wear uniforms?

Johnny Dares in KC has its waitresses wear them. So and your point is?

It is strictly a White Trailer Trash Rock and Roll Bar in the hip party zone of KC!

PlaZee rest the claws from may already scratched backed. Or backside!;)

Just a quick hijack back to the topic of Princeton's attitude toward Greeks --

The Tuesday, September 21 issue of the student paper contains an editorial advocating deferred Greek recruitment. Although the editorial has some positive things to say about Greek life, it supports the position of Princeton's president that fall recruitment is not a good idea.

See

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/arc...on/10779.shtml

End of hijack. :)

WTF, mates?! Aren't most private schools (with the exception of NYU, which has 40,000 students) smaller than public schools?

Most of GC doesn't give a rat's ass what Earp thinks--do you really think one of the nation's--if not the world's--most prestigious institutions of higher learning cares?

Then you should have said that instead of saying "I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way." That implies Theta was doing something shady and didn't care what their grades were like as long as they had a chapter at Princeton. Sorry I misinterpreted.

Re the Ivy alum being active in Cream's sorority, I think you must also consider that D Phi E has a large concentration of alums from the northeast. :)

Oh, and as far as public vs. private, Tom doesn't mean Penn State vs. Princeton, he means North Adams vs Princeton - i.e. he is talking about former teachers' colleges. U Penn is private and it's certainly bigger than Clarion, Slippery Rock etc. Does that answers your WTF mates?

Why should Greeks defer their recruitment? Will other student organizations, clubs, eating clubs defer as well?

It seems to me that it's only sororities that would so easily accept deferred rush.

-Rudey

Eating club recruitment is (very) deferred to sophomore spring, which is another reason the administration doesn't fight it so hard. It also offers guaranteed placement.

No, other clubs would never be asked to defer, but the fact is that the administration views purely social clubs differently. They view political, athletic, artistic, and affinity clubs as benefiting the university as a whole, while (non-NPHC) GLOs only benefit their members. Further, they think that it's a very different thing for a freshman to come in and immediately be categorized by a selective arts group as a quality or substandard dancer than to be categorized by a GLO as a quality or substandard friend.

Not saying whether they're right or wrong, but that's their view.

Usually state schools are larger than private schools...I went to a large private school, but I think that is more the exception than the rule.

I think every school has to be egotistical to a point - how can you get students to apply/attend if you're not the "best" at something?

Do you mean the clubs that don't still do the "bicker" thing?

I understand that's their view and I think that this is something that GLOs don't have to accept. I don't mean that legally. I mean that I'm sure that if they pushed and pushed, after a while it would become accepted.

As for social clubs, eating clubs, tomb societies, etc., not all guarantee you a spot do they? And I don't know how Harvard or Princeton work really, but from what I've heard of tomb societies there really isn't a rush period; you are judged actually for that first year or however long, aren't guaranteed a spot anywhere, and there is no rush.

-Rudey

Five clubs still bicker, but you're guaranteed a place in an eating club if you want one, and if you prefer a sign-in club, you're very likely to get your first choice (and it's random chance if you don't). As we were discussing on another thread, GLO recruitment is by necessity mutually selective and with very rare exceptions they don't have to take you.

You may be thinking of secret societies at Yale, which meet in "tombs." They are for seniors only, and they pick ("tap")whomever they want among the juniors to form a very small class for the following year. These clubs are co-ed and thus don't violate any anti-discrimination policies. The real rush process at Yale is a cappella rush. Harvard, in contrast, has final clubs, which are basically local fraternities/men's drinking clubs. Rush, or "punch," is by invitation only. The university has a bitterly antagonistic relationship with these clubs; it views them as a much greater and more immediate problem than the GLOs, and it would do almost anything to get rid of them if it could. You aren't guaranteed a spot in either system, but the university certainly doesn't grant them any favor vs. GLOs.
________

What chapters are there at Santa Clara?

Santa Clara has Delta Gamma, Alpha Phi, and Kappa Alpha Theta.

Here's a letter to the editor that was published in today's Daily Princetonian...

That's a good one! :)