Umm...
 

Yall are off the chain up in here.

You're too funny. I'm gonna give you a call tonight.:)

It started out with a very legitimate question. The direction it took, however...that got bad and more divisive than we usually are in here.

Well, thank you for your best wishes, as a brother in your fraternity, I take them in tow. I think that it is funny that an opinion on things can take a brother's focus off of what we are, as BROTHERS collectively trying to do. We took the same oath and pledged ourselves for the same reason, yet when we disagree on something you want to disrespect my chapter? Ok, feel free to "attack" me and what I have to say as a person, but at least show my chapter some respect. I will respect yours because it is a chapter of the Organization I love and pledged myself to and I expect nothing less from a person that is supposed to be my Brother. We may disagree on things and that's fine, it's human nature, but when it gets down to it, all of our chapters should be about the same thing: Leadership. Friendship and Service.

If you think "I see how your chapter rolls" is an attack, so be it. I'm not on the offensive, so take it for what it is.

Are you done? I am.

LoL!!!! Okay okay, I see how it is Finito, because you say it, so shall it be. And since we're finished, neither of us have to reply after this post, since we're in agreeance. :)

APhiOKUGrl


U have every right to say whatever you want your a BROTHER, Key word is BROTHER, MEMBER, IN THE COMPUTER AT THE NATIONAL OFFICE,KNOW THE GRIP, KNOW THE SECRET HANDSHAKE, KNOW THE SECRET WORDS

Do you understand where im coming from, you can say you hate APO and its your right you've seen things met brothers and understand the frat to make a opinion, its just offensive to me that somone who is not in the frat , that is pledging does things that arent cool, also want to compare us to a black greek which we are not, we have black culture but we are not a black greek. it just sounds like she is trying to compare or understand APO from a black greek stance. I use to do that alot until i became a black greek, i see and understand the difference.But hopefully she will learn and love APO for what is it and not for what it is NOT.

Cass...see...now this is why I love my brothers. You can't buy truth like that. I wanted deep in my soul to reply, but how can I? Those posts wre beautiful.

Sweet, yes, you did misunderstand me. What I intended was already explained to you, so I feel no need to clarify. If you want that, PM me. If not, (handclasp to you) it's all love.

Let me make my self clear....AGAIN!
 

I never said that Alpha Phi Omega was like a BGLO - maybe honestly if some of you read the response instead of taking bits and pieces of it you would see, but just as I said before - none of you will take it as it was meant to be seen or said so Im done with it - say what you want about me, but I know what my words were intended to say and the people to whom it was directed to understood and got it. And thats all the matters to me at this point in time.




For those who care:

Below is what I said

[I]You are a pledge b/c you are pledging your dedication to this fraternity - you become a "new member" when you are initiated. [B]For those who are familiar with BGLO [B] its called "Crossing the burning sands" or "crossing" for short. [B]B/c[B] you are no longer just a regular student, you have crossed over into a new idenity and a new life now. [I]

This statement was NOT made to disrespect Alpha Phi Omega
This statement was NOT made to disrespect ANY organization that is BGL.

This statement is what it meant TO ME to be a "pledge" vs. a "new member."

I used the BGLO reference as an example to show that you grow from a "pledge" and 'cross' into "new membership." I felt without this reference that some would not understand what I mean by "crossing."

This is not about the actual ACTIONS of crossing - it is about the spirit of it and what it means to the individual. (As well as the pledge class/line as a whole)

Many Brothers have spoken that at their Chapters they have some Black Greek influence and this maybe why they were offended, at this school - we dont have that.

BTW - I dont think that b/c of my parents I know what being Greek is like (BG, NPC - doesnt matter). I speak from the experiences of things I have done in my life.

ALSO interested parties ARE allowed to post on Black Greek sites. These people are called "sisterfriends" or "brotherfriends" and I have NEVER seen them treat ANYONE the way I have been treated on this forum and guess what? I speak the same way there that I do here and I am respected for my opinion. I ONLY give my opinion in areas that I have experience and the proof to back it up. Speaking on toast songs and secret handshakes, etc. - I dont even click on the topic, out of RESPECT. BUT REGARDLESS of who you are, if you disrespect me I will treat you the same way you treat me. And thats not a PLEDGE to BROTHER basis - That Human to human - woman to man - woman to woman.





THANK YOU: To the 3 Brothers who offered support and kind words. I appreciate you greatly. ;)

PrettyKittieJ,

you really need to quit while you are ahead because seriously, I believe for my brothers at ECU to allow you to pledge, they saw something in you that I DON'T see in your post. Just stop and let this post die.

BlueGBI

Im sorry that you feel that way - while this is an internet forum I will continue to defend myself if I will continue to be attacked.
Like 3 pages ago I apologized for anyone who felt offended and it continued from there. The apology was completely overlooked and disregarded.

My final answer
 

The reason that it was overlooked was that you immediately went back to arguing back and forth with my brothers. If I step on your foot, apologize, and step on your foot again while justifying why I felt that stepping on your foot was necessary, you wouldn't take my apology seriously either.

Stepping into pledge trainer mode:
What are you gaining by arguing with my brothers? What are you seeking to accomplish? What has given you the knowledge and experience to dispute anything about an organization that you are not a part of with people who are? If you see that no matter how hard you try to get everyone to see your perspective, you are unsuccessful and are further angering brothers, why are you continuing? Is the desire to be "right" more important than showing deference to people who are your potential brothers?

I remember what it is to be a pledge. When I was a pledge I saw brothers as people who knew more about Alpha Phi Omega than I did and those I could learn from. I approached brothers as such and reaped the awards thereof. I was able to get some older brothers from my chapter to sit down with me and share some of their experiences and knowledge with me. I was only able to have these experiences because of my HUMBLE attitude towards those in the organization.

HERE'S THE GOLDEN MESSAGE: If a brother said something about Alpha Phi Omega that I did not agree with (and that did happen), I did not feel the need to correct, argue, or even question his or her knowledge because I understood that as a pledge, I only had a part of the big picture. It did not take anything away from me not to argue. I did not feel like less of a person and I still felt like I had a valid point that I would express at an appropriate time.

I hope that you take this post in the spirit in which it was written (which was that of Alpha Phi Omega in its truest sense). Good luck on the rest of your pledge process and I hope that you continue to grow and that you do finally get to see the light of Alpha Phi Omega.

ANY FURTHER COMMENTS TO ME SHOULD BE SENT TO MY PM BOX

well said BROTHER!!!:D That was so beautiful i enjoyed it. This whole thread has been sooooooooooooo funny!!! I wish i would go to AKA Ave and do an IVY stance or stomp over to the DIVA-STATING DIVAS of DST and drop off my 19.13 cents worth of anything. rofl On the way back I'll stop and see the sigs and drop off a wee-oop and a Z-Phi So Sweet to them ladies in blue...and as far as the SGRho's I'm already reppin Blue and Gold so what's up?!?

Prettie...don't take it to heart...you have heart...that's a good thing...you are willing to hold your own...that's a good thing...you don't follow the crowd, that's a great thing...and you willing to do what you feel is right regardless of what others think...thats great sweetie but you are still a pledge...let me tell you a lil something about our history...

Frank Reed Horton wanted to create an organization where the pledges were treated as equals to the Brothers. I can only speak for myself...when I read this I thought a lot of the same things that my brothers thought but I'm in a good mood right now so I'll be nice.:D It is not our intention to treat you like crap cuz you ain't frat...but you don't have the same rights and priviledges as frat yet either. There were times where my Big Brothers from my chapter and others did and said things that I didn't agree with, but I knew that this was not my time to shine. After I crossed *and I didn't cross nobody's burning sands...we don't use that term* I was and still am one of the most outspoken brothers you will ever meet. I am tight on my info and history cuz I choose to be...even still let me meet frat thats fall 02 or older...I'm meeting them like hey how you doing and I show them love and I realize that they have been in the frat longer than I have...even if its only a semester. I was the vp of my chapter last yr and I hold a position on the sectional staff this yr. If I were to meet a brother thats older than me that has not been active since they "crossed" I'm not gone act like I"m better than them cuz i hold a position or i got knowledge...I'm still comin to them humble b/c they might have something that they can teach me...and you can teach older frat stuff...i have done so many times but it's all in how you do it...

let me let you in on a lil secret...you can say whatever you want to say it's all in how you say it...i have corrected older brothers but just not in a disrespectful way...as much as you "might not" have tried to have been disrespectful the point is you came in here speaking to us like we didnt know *ish*...now had that been me when they got in my tail the first time I would have digressed and thought about my mistake and made sure that my next appearance was one that was a lil less drama free.

All in all you got heart girl!!! Stay that way...but in all things be respectful...

To my brothers in all things you do don't forget
Leadership, Friendship, and Service

and like frat said earlier...n e questions comments or concerns...i got a pm box that's waitin to be flooded with correspondence.

EDITED TO ADD...and that's MY .25 worth!!!

im sorry im about to say some stuff that may seem cruel.

1- im not going to give her props for having a heart, there people on this forum all the time who come on here and talk garbage. ITs not like we going to do anything to them, there over the internet, to me, when you start PMing people and asking for phone number to talk to them thats heart. Its still profilin cause i dont think would ever say that thing she saying in any brothers face and if she does thatr at her chapter then i say the chapter is weak.

2-Let her come to some southern chapters with the crap, since she from a co-ed chapter go to howard, tenn state, NC a&t, fisk, etc.. with the crap and see how long she last as a pledge.

3- wheather its a co-ed chapter, all male, on the black side sweety we take the frat VERY VERY VERY seriously( not that alot of mixed or white chapters dont i knwo alot who do) so i suggest you learn you info then talk cause a person like her will be laughed at. Im from a moslty white chapter and i knew my place and leanr laot from my white brother so you need ot do that same.

Im sorry but i hate these people the get into our fraternity with these chapters that make APO look like a social club or a way to hook up with people, or an outlet for people to get friend that didnt have any before or for the resume, this is a fraternity not a joke and it really kills me to meet people or chapter who take it that way. Buts its the same people who get to be in the sectional or regional or national board , and it need to stop wheather your a girl or guy, if you love this frat we all need to speak up, we need to start making brothers and not members. Im sorry but ive been holding that back for a while.

"making brothers"
 

No, we need those who will make themselves brothers. The vote of the chapter is confirming those pledges who have made themselves brothers and the initiation ceremony is to make it official.

I have met those who were already worthy of being brothers the day that they started pledging. On the day they started pledging they didn't know the names of the 14 founders, (and I know board members, whose brotherhood I'll put up against anyone, who can't name all 14) and didn't know whether their chapter had a parlimentarian. But that can be learned and a willingness to learn is what *should* be part of any college student's character.

"Making brothers" to me implies that the external actions that the chapter does are what is entirely responsible for the pledges becoming worth to be brothers, and to me, that view leads to tests of physical stamina in pledging that have nothing to do with whether someone is worthy to be a brother of this fraternity. I hope that this is not what you mean by the term making brothers and would welcome discussion as to what may be more clear terminology.



YiLFS
Randy Finder

No one is talking about hazing or anything physical, what i mean is as brothers if we dont show people who are interested in the fraternity how we love this fraternity or how serious we take this fraternity people will become brothers with that kind of attitude. And we do "MAKE" brothers, they couldnt become a brother unless a brother is involved so yes we are "making" brothers. You are right if they dont have that love and dont want to learn then they will be like that but if they dont see other brothers taking this fraternity seriously then they wont, thats just the way it is. You are effected by your environment. Please dont go there about hazing or anything like that, this forum is far from that and i am very insulted that you would even go there. Would you had said that to someone who wasnt an ay-phi-que? ive seen many post on here that you could take anyway but you never comment on them so please dont comment on mines, what you need to be doing is commenting on her not on me. So please lets get back to the topic at hand.

This fraternity had many chapters charter in the 1950s and before that *never* saw a brother of Alpha Phi Omega fraternity until a staff member came out from Nationals to run the chartering ceremony. (Eta Omicron at Brigham Young U as an example) And others where there was one visit to interview those interested and then a chartering visit.

My objections to "make brothers" are largely the result of readings that use the term "Made Brothers" as opposed to "Paper Brothers" in the NPHC.

Also, could you be a little more specific on
Do you have any specific members of the National Board who you feel didn't get into the fraternity at a chapter that "make APO look like a social club", etc?

Strangely enough, I can (almost))speak to the pledging experience of at least one member of the board, the current Region V director pledged my chapter the semester after I graduated. I doubt the chapters was significantly different the semester he pledged than my last one.

And yes, I would make that comment to any brother.

YiLFS
Randy Finder

Oh REALLY? :rolleyes: :p :D

I just wanted to mess with Attractive for a second. Seriously.
Carry on!

Sorry for crashing, but I must say I was offended by PrettyKJ's post because she also spoke with "authority" on BGLOs. She is not a member of one and having family members who are does not make her knowledgeable. If fact, if she really knew what she was talking about she would also know about discretion. Just my $19.13 worth.

Oh my goodness! Someone close this thread and put it out of its misery. The poster in question obviously has not been taught etiquette. So, she didn't realize that speaking on BGLOs was taboo. It's great that she's been corrected though.

And, I agree that she doesn't have $19.25 to give. But, she'll learn.

As far as the original question, since by our rules these people aren't new members (barely even associate members), it would be misleading of us to call them anything but pledges.

Please stop the bickering people!!

well to me it take more than you natural knowledge of a fraternity to be a brother, making brother even at the black universities isnt always about hazing, there are certain things that being in a greek org you will never know how to do with out being taught from a brother. Yes the individual has to want and have the qualities but all in all we need to make them see, most people arent going to learn if not taught, i have met those people to that i would be great additions to the org but they still have to learn about the fraternity and they knowledge only comes from brothers. you cannot be a brother without knowing what the fraternity means, secrets etc... no matter how much service you do or how much you love APO your not a brother until a brother makes you one. You need to go through the ceremony, etc... I hope you understand what i am saying. Making a brother is someone going through a process. that we put them through.

be back.......

Brother Casanova, to whom were you responding?

Pledges are members, but not initiated members.
 

Pledge membership is a type of membership in the fraternity. This is made fairly clear in the national by-laws and is definately true from a legal standpoint, for example from a legal standpoint, a party with brothers and pledges with it only is viewed as a members only event. For example the bylaws say: "Without gender implication, all initiated Members of the
organization are known nationally as Brothers of the Fraternity." Pledges are uninitiated members. http://www.apo.org/publications/documents/bylaws.pdf

That having been said, Pledges is still the most clear and obivious way to refer to those who have Pledge Membership. When they initiated, they are Brothers.

YiLFS
Randy Finder

I was responding to brother Naraht. i have more but im at work and i want to collect my thoughts before i go further.

Re: Pledges are members, but not initiated members.
 

I know this, but I must have not been altogether clear. Pledges are not new members, but are associate members. The reason I said "barely" is because their initiation isn't guaranteed.

:) pj

Preciousjeni,

I'm going to assume this is a response to my last message and go from there. :)

IMO, CasanovaAPQ, we both agree that someone is not a brother until they have gone through the initiation ceremony (honoraries are another issue).

However an advisor to a chapter is just as much a brother as you and I, and they go through no process. At least five of the Fraternity's National presidents include the Chief never went through the pledging process as they first affiliated as advisors. I don't believe they were less than they could be in the fraternity because they never went through a process.

I still point to those brothers who started chapters like Eta Omicron to indicate that the process run by other brothers is not a necessity to make brothers that we can be proud of, however the fraternity today does attempt to add pledging-like characteristics to the chartering/rechartering process including the existance of the Petitioning Group Ceremony, Petitioning Pins and when possible Big Brother chapters and Big Brothers to individual Petitioners from the PG from the BB chapter.

Randy

I am in full agreement with you! The original post, however, was talking about New Members vs. Pledges. The examples you gave did not include a pledge process at all and would not be subject to the renaming.

I love my Alpha Phi Omega brothers no matters how they can to be!

Point well made but i have ot come back like this, knowing about adviosr cermonies, rechartering, etc... we still have to "make" that decision, for an advisor the chapter has to vote on that, also rechatering, a futrue chapter has to complete certain reqirements before they are deemed a chapter. so no matter how you put it there has be be some type of brother "making" the decision to make these people striving to be brothers, brothers. I dont know of any Brother was was made a brother without any brother involvement, maybe only frank reed horton. Even the other founders had to get approval from frank to be part of the brotherhood, now do u understand where i am coming from with the "making a Brother" statement?

But even with that said, people that joined in any other way then the usual process saw dedicated brothers that made them want to drive for the brotherhood, or saw a website that caught there fancy, or met a brother who was telling them about the frat or maybe even had a family member who is a member. I give those people who chater or recharter credit cause they have to do alot for over a year to get there chapter and to me that a whole different experience and the brothers are left cause in the 1 1/2 that it takes to charter the people who arent going t take the frat seriously are ironed out with the time.

And what was the incident with Eta Omicron?

Don't be sorry for your words...if you saying it and you mean it then you are not sorry.



you don't have to...i did...i didn't ask for anyones approval nor for anyone to agree with me.



a lot of those chapters are not as BIG AND BAD as you may think...y do you feel the need to seperate the black chapters and the white chapters? i am from two of those schools and have been in close relations with another one so i know how at least 3 of the chapters you just mentioned operate. point is...who cares? she dont go to these schools so what is the relevence?



was this comment directed toward me?

once again were you directing these comments toward me...if so PLEASE let me know

Falls down on me...
 

I think the last two comments you asked about were directed towards me. They have all been so I would presume so.

Hey i think people are taking my comment to another place, i never said that these chapters are hard core but they take the frat seriously, and i been to all those chapters i know what im talking about( no saying she going to get hazed or beat up, please dont take the comments to that extreme but you would not become a brother with that type of attitude, ive seem people no become brothers at certain chapters for less) And its not about a division of black and white schools but greek life in the black community is different than the white community.

Nothing that i said was towards you , and also wasnt towards her really its just mostly general observations of that frat.

Who cares, see thats the attitude that in my opinion shouldnt be in the frat, just because you dont go there you shouldnt care, thats like saying just cause your not from the south you shouldnt care about slavery. as a black person in apo you should want to learn about our history in the frat, this is in no way excluding our white brothers, apo is just like america, just cause you are pro-black doesnt make you anti-white ( think about it) and after thatyou should learn about the asian side of apo, spanish side etc... but learnig about your own people in anything you do is a great thing. It gives you more pride, due to popular believe apo is a Mulitcultural org all races have comtribute to our greatness and all cultures should be celebrated, but unfortunetly in the black culture apo is seemed as a "white' frat. so we need to educate ourselves and others about the frat.

There was a time where i only forcused on the black side of the frat untill i learned that all cultures contributed to out frat. Even with that said i still love the black culture in APO. And will always be proud to be black in APO. We did alot of first:

-The first Predominately White org to intergrate
Detla Phi 1947
-First org on campuses to have a handsign ( handsigns didnt come into play until the 60 with the black greeks
-Most chapters at a black universities in the 60-80. ( i may be wrong about that but thats what the research is saying now).
-More PAN_HELL members that KKY, TBS, etc... only one to rival us is the masons.
Alot of universites they pledged APO first before they did a black greek which is still the same till this day. Alot of ou black members are part of PAN_HELL orgs and still active in APO

I know brother rashid can talk alot more about this than i can at the current moment being he taught me alot

So i hope you understand whereim coming from with my black chapters comments. Sometime when people see someone who is pro-black that they there anti-white which isnt the case, i would have never peldge apo or sigma ( being that we have alot of white members) if i was anti-white.

you obviously misunderstood what i said about who cares...you said if she was at one of these schools...the fact is she is not at one of these schools so y are u even bringing that up...its irrelevent. i'm not saying u anitwhite but u obviously think that black greek culture is better than white greek culture and thats not the case...we might do this and you might do that but does that make either group superior? no. black greek life might be ur preference but dont try to preach it like its the end all say all of APO.

Stop fighting in front of pledges and aspirants. Take it to PM.

we're not fighting...its a message board, you have discussions, you post messages...we might not agree but i dont love him or n e one else n e less

LOL! I feel you - however, disagreeing is one thing but this has taken a turn for the worse on many levels. (We have a pledge involved now - LAWD help us!)

Keep it discreet Brothers.

this is isnt arguing this is having a discussion, im not mad at he comments at all, this is what needs to happen more, this is what the forum is for to discuss issues, we may not agree but as brothers she is intitle to her opinion and can express those opinions, and this is great example of being a brothrer and talking about things you knwo about or have experienced. She can talk and disagree with me cause she is frat and has experienced thing being a brother.

Now to comment on her post, i dont think in any way that black greeks is better than white greek, i do KNOW that it is different, black and whites in the greek community express there love for there org differently. When was the last time you seen a white greek or a white chapter of apo stepping or party walking? its something thats not done in the white community. Does that mean black greek are better than black greeks? NO. But is does show differences. when was the last time you seen an omega psi phi bro where his letters in pink and green sesame street charactors on the letter? it just doesnt happen. or a delta with blue and gold on her letters? see its defferent , not saying its better but different. I dont know if your part of a black greek but there is differences between APO a black greek but there are things that are universal in the black culture, thats all im saying.

No incident, just as example of a school that was relatively isolated that had a student group that transformed into an Alpha Phi Omega chapter after writing to the National Fraternity about their Boy Scout group. First face to face contact was the staffers who went out to give the charter/initiate them.

Randy