I don't think you'll find one, but you will find chapters with loads of "traditional" age college students who are learning how to be mature adults and who feel that advisors at HQ are like mean and disapproving parents... so the maturing traditional age collegians are more likely to hide a problem than communicate openly... for fear they will be disciplined and punished, like a child being sent to his room. This lack of communication leads to mistrust and a chapter that can't communicate is looked at more closely, and yes, is more likely to screw up, because they've grown afraid to communicate even the smallest things-- like approving a local event.

You know what, if you want to lower the age, how about this..... I think we should not allow greeks until they are 21, they can pledge at 20 so by the time they cross they will be 21. then you dont have to worry about the alcohol issue :D
By the way in france legal age is 18 but they are more MATURE, can handle it and know their limit as opposed to here in USA with so much AA and drunk driving. Imagine if they could drink younger. Many people sneak alcohol at home or go to Mexico or Canada to drink, do they do it in moderation? no they get drunk and get themselves trouble with the law or their parents. I am speaking in general. I am opposed to bringing the drinking age down, I also think we should raise the smoking age to 21.

This really depends on the GLO. Many GLOs simply lack the resources to provide positive and constructive reform. GLOs with the resources to reform chapters aren't looking to bust chapters. They're looking to help them.

I was my chapters VP when we had the last administration permitted open keg party (36 kegs, 3,000+ people, no fights.) I was there at the time of transition and it was frustrating. FSU passed rules that were inspired by my chapter. When kegs were banned from fraternity houses, one brother parked next to the house with an ancient VW convertable that had a keg in the back seat. A month later, FSU passed the "adjacent property rule." After several friday afternoon golfing excursions through campus, FSU banned golf on campus. We found other things to do, and other ways to do them. As I look back on my undergraduate years, there are a lot of great memories, and there was a lot of alcohol. There aren't that many great memories that involved alcohol. When America's age of litigation started, everything changed. We're not going back to the way that it was before. If fraternities have to have alcohol to exist, than they don't deserve to exist. Besides, most NIC organizations do allow alcohol under restrictive conditions.

Chapters that have had poor communications with their fraternities did not pop up into existance after the liability insurance era emerged. They have always been around, and traditionally the area of contention was not alcohol. Sometimes poor communications is the fault of HQ staff. Sometimes the blame lies with actives. Sometimes its both. Usually it lies with stubborn advisors who don't want change. These advisors poison the atmosphere for communications between HQ and chapters, and are there to keep it poisoned for years on end. When communications sour between a chapter and HQ, and there are no alumni that try to keep Hatfield-McCoy style hostility alive, the hostility fades and good communications and relations eventually are restored.

Russ, the hammer hit the nail on the head.

While LXA has I think the largest staff at IHQ and ELCs touring the country to make visits, it is still a tight situation.

It is very exasperating for not only the Active Chapter but the IHQ staff when things go sour.

The point is, that Chapters of respective Greek Organizations are expected to follow the Covenets of said Organizations.

When that doesnt happen is when not only the Chapter, The Organization, but, all of GreekDom that get harmed!

While, We have more resource

Russ, the hammer hit the nail on the head.

While LXA has I think the largest staff at IHQ and ELCs touring the country to make visits, it is still a tight situation.

It is very exasperating for not only the Active Chapter but the IHQ staff when things go sour.

The point is, that Chapters of respective Greek Organizations are expected to follow the Covenets of said Organizations.

When that doesnt happen is when not only the Chapter, The Organization, but, all of GreekDom that get harmed!

While, We have more resources, in may cases, it is not enough.

Many more Organizations have less so it makes it even harder.

So, the onus falls many times on the Chapters them selfs.


Check out other Greeks Web Sites and see what staff they have. It is somewhat eye opening.:eek:

I don't think greeks should spearhead this movement.

I think military people who can be put on the front lines but not allowed to have a drink or two to sit back and relax with, should spearhead this movement.

It's stupid to let them risk thier lives for us, but then deny them a beer or two.

That argument has been used before. Prior to 1968 young men could drink beer in many states and be drafted into the Army, but couldn't vote.

Should the drinking age be lowered to 18 or 19? Yes (with qualifications, see below).

Should greeks spearhead a movement to do so? No.

The 21yo drinking age draws a line right through the middle of college communities and other groups of young adults. In many places you can't even get into a bar unless you're 21+, so if even one person in the group is under 21, you either have to change your plans or exclude that person.

The 21yo drinking age is also very difficult to enforce. I had several friends in college who would buy for me, and even though people were carded at the entrances to parties, bartenders routinely ignored the absent bracelet or the big black X on your hand.

I'd say the 21yo drinking age contributes to 18-20yos overindulging. The temptation is definitely there: "Woohoo, I got in and I wasn't carded! Might as well take advantage." And what's the first thing most of us did when we turned 21? Went out to a bar and got $h!tfaced.

I would like to see a graduated drinking age, maybe 18 for beer and wine and 21 for hard liquor, or 18 for 3.2 beer and 21 for everything else. The 18-20yos can go to a bar with their older friends and have something to drink rather than be excluded, and they can gradually get accustomed to what alcohol can do to your body and your judgement. It would be a PITA to enforce, though...

The greek community shouldn't be spearheading this effort, though. We are already associated with alcohol and the negative aspects of alcohol use. :( It wouldn't be inappropriate for greeks to spearhead a "get out the vote" campaign, though, and if a referendum about a lower drinking age happens to be on the ballot, oh well ;)

I agree with aephialum that if the drinking age is lowered to 18 there need to be guidelines in place. I'd suggest that the blood alcohol level to declared legally drunk be stricter for ages 18-21.
Tougher penalties be in place in situations in a cases of drunk driving accidents.

Is SADD, students against drunk driving, still around anymore?

Seems simple enough to me. If one is is old enough to vote and old enough to serve in the Army then one is old enough to make up one's own mind whether or not to drink. Teaching by word and by example our young brothers who elect to drink how to do so responsibly seems like a proper thing for us to consider.

One of the big arguments against the 18 y/o drinking age was that, just as 21 y/o's buy for their peers who are 19-20 in college, the 18 year olds are still in high school and then they are buying for the 15-17 year olds. They said that upping it to 21 would get it out of the highschools. I don't know where I stand on the issue or what the answer is...

I see our biggest risk as binge drinking or drinking and driving. Using the law is a good argument "You can't, it's against the law", but our risk would still be there even if the drinking age was 18 because there would still be bringe drinking leading to death and drunk driving.

Dee

True AGDee, but it would require more extreme cases to get us in trouble.

On some campuses, any underage drinking at all associated with greeks can lose you a charter. With a lowered age that risk is eliminated.

Obviously accidents and etc are going to come back and bite us, but even then it will be less often of the people concerned are legal to drink and bought their own alcohol.

In most of our cases the person is underaged and presumed to be unable to buy it themelves.

OMG THANK YOU ABBEY. That's exactly what I meant. Russ, you're totally twisting what I'm saying - and I think this is yet another "boys and girls are different" issue. Maybe you had bad experiences with advisors, but that absolutely is not the case most of the time.

I know it's been used before, I just wanted to re-iterate it.

Good point, but not necessarily true. For the military, those aged 18 to 21 CAN drink beer, if on a military base, at a military facility (such as the enlisted men's club on base, for example). Why? Because a military base is under the jurisdiction of the military and the UCMJ guidelines. Not only that, but specifically for the Navy, should a unit (i.e. ship) be forward deployed and away from any ports-of-call in excess of 120 days, the crew is allowed a ration of beer from time to time, including those under 21, but not under 18.

Unfortunately, when I was in the Navy, I never got a "beer call" on board ship, even though we had been underway for 130 days because the captain decided not to allow this privilege (he was a Sigma Chi alumni as well). Of course, just three weeks after the 120 threshold, we arrived in Perth, Australia...and many people made up for lost time, and paid for it dearly by engaging in really stupid behavior...

LXA,

Good point. I didn't remember that.

Of course that does lead to the potential of someone enlisting in the Army at 17, being able to drink at 18, be discharged at 20 and not be able to drink again.

Now that would be a bummer.

I think the Army enlistment is still three years, isn't it? Used to be.

I think basic enlistments are all still eight years, but the confusion can be in how it is split into active/reserve commitments.

For example, the majority of enlistees go in under a 4/4 split, but that can be changed - for instance, in the Navy, there is the "pushbutton" promotions you can get from an "A" (technical trade) school, that if you take the early promotion up to E-4, your active commitment becomes six years, reserve for two.

I was under a special program called "sea college" meant for those who wished to complete their college educations in a combined at-sea, on-campus experience. I served two years active, six years reserve, but could not choose my technical trade in the Navy, they chose my job for me (I started out in the boiler room - eww...but was able to "strike" to another job by completing the necessary correspondence course to become an electrician). I also took part in onboard college classes that allowed me to get the math portion of my required classes out of the way before I returned to college on-campus.

This might be a little off topic but here goes...


If there is a big problem with underage drinking and drunk driving (meaning the greatest drunk driving offenders are underaged drinkers) why not consider uping the legal driving age. Or, like some have suggested with alcohol a graduated system.?

Here in Ontario (and a few other provinces) have graduated licensing. They found that new, young drivers (and more specifically younge, new, MALE drivers) were responsible for a majority of accidents. So what they did was this. At 16, you get a G1. You must stay at G1 level for a year (8 months if you complete a ministry approved driver education program). After that time is up you have to take a road test to get your G2. You have to have you G2 for a minimum of 1 year before you take a final road test to get your full G class license.
There are also restrictions on a G1 and G2 license. G1 holders cannot driver between midnight and 5 am. Must have a person in the passenger seat at all times with a full G license (must have had G for at least 4 years). Have NO alcohol in the system. Cannot drive on the highways (2 lane highways are the exception), etc, etc (I just don't feel like typing them all out). A G2 holder has 2 restrictions. All passengers must have a working seatbelt and have NO alcohol in their system.

Maybe 16 is too young to drive like 18 is too young to drink???

Many US states also have graduated licensing. In New York, for instance, if you're under 18 when you pass your road test, you get a junior license. You can turn it into a senior license when you turn 18, or when you turn 17 if you took an approved driver ed program. With a junior license, you cannot drive at all in NYC, you can drive on Long Island only if your parents or a driving instructor is in the car, and you can drive alone elsewhere in the state, but only until 9pm. (Why do I still know this... and I'm still trying to figure out why driving in the boonies of Suffolk County is considered riskier than driving through downtown White Plains... but I digress.) The penalties for DUI/DWAI are also much harsher if you are under 21 (I think that two violations means you lose your license for a year or until you turn 21, whichever is longer).

Maybe that's the right approach... have a graduated drinking age in combination with stiffer DUI penalties for those under 21.

Maybe the basic problen in the USA is tell a kid NO. They are going to do it in a permissive society. Thank You ACLU!

But, if a Society allows Semi-Adults to drint with guide lines or training, it will work!

It still goes back, to dont tell a Kid No, as they will. Peer Preasure is a big thing.

I'm becoming more and more an advocate of the graduated drivers licenses (also being tied in as a measure to decrease high school dropouts), as well as more severe and public penalties for DUI's, especailly repeat DUI offenders (such as the bright license plates or licenses, breathalyzer interlocks, etc...)

I'm all for having a postive social experience in college...but, the emphasis all too often is NOT on the "positive" aspects...it is up to all students, Greeks especially, to set the positive examples, and to change the status quo.

Are you sure about 18 on bases? I was told by some military people that was changed under pressure political.

I am not saying that it might not go on with a wink and a nod, but I don't think its a matter of policy anymore.

James, not sure what you are posting about?

I think, but not sure, that under 21 can drink in post but not off.

I do not want to be quoted on this as not sure.

Tom, I had been told that they changed the rules.

Policy has changed...
 

Apparently, the previous policy on alcohol, at least for the Navy...did change 8 years ago. Sorry for any confusion - I was under the impression you still could drink under 21, and apparently you can, but the limitations have increased.

I found this at http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...6/nns96012.txt

The ALNAV implements an immediate policy change regarding
alcohol consumption by members under the age of 21.
Effective April 1, 1996, all Department of the Navy bases
and installations will be required to strictly conform with the
drinking age limitations of the state or country in which they
are located. This revokes previous exceptions -- most notably
the one allowing Navy and Marine Corps installations within 50
miles of a foreign country with a lower drinking age (i.e.
Mexico) to permit underage drinking at certain establishments on
base.
Overseas installations, and ships or activities visiting
foreign ports, will conform to local country law. But in no
case will drinking be permitted below the age of 18.

Re: Sholuld Greeks Speahead a movement to reduce the drinking age to 18?
 

Yeah, but providing minors with alcohol is a crime and the behavior is criminal. Stop providing alcohol to minors and you won't have a problem.

If they obtain the booze somewhere else and do not consume it on your property with your knowledge, there's no risk. Grow up and recruit academics rather than alcoholics.

What I've noticed here in the UK/Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland is a very different culture around drink. The pub (short for public house, FYI) is an extention of the home almost...a really large parlour with footy on the TV and good chips and a cheap pint. England recently extended serving hours in bars, and it was expected to explode the number of drink driving/alcohol infraction charges...truth is that there simply wasn't an increase.

The R. o. Ireland just published last year's drink driving figures...for all 26 counties, there were only 33 arrests. And being arrested for drink driving in ROI and UK is almost immediate revokation of your DL. Part of the reason is the ease/cost of getting a taxi. It's easier/cheaper to get a taxi to the pub with 5 of your best mates for 5 pound than get in the car, spend the petrol, and then pay to park. People rarely rarely rarely drive drunk here. It carries a HUGE stigma.

Compare that with Pittsburgh, where there are maybe 2 cab companies, and it can take well over an hour to get one to come, if it shows at all. Belfast has over 20 different cab companies, not including the ones on the outskirts.Then the cost....I'd be willing to guess that it'd cost you the better part of 50 dollars to go from downtown to the airport. You can get a bus from Belfast City Center to the Int Airport for 7 pound return, taxi costs about 20 pound, but its almost an hour drive. So what do people do? drive home drunk, especially because the buses are basically useless after 8. Belfast has set up a "get home safe" bus service that stops in the neighborhoods with high amounts of students, pubs and clubs. Cheap fare too (they make it up on volume!).

And you RARELY if EVER hear of anyone dying of alcohol poisoning.

Ok, rant over.

Otterbein has the distinction of being in the "Dry Capital of the World". Up until this past election, you could not buy or sell alcohol within Westerville city limits. Now there is a pub-style restaurant that can sell wine/beer, and a pizza place that can sell you a 6 pack. Alcohol is not permitted on campus, or at campus events. But there's still a fair bit of drink consumed, despite insistance that it doesnt. Just because you cant get it in westerville doesnt mean that it doesnt get drunk.

Long and short of it? I'd vote for the legal age being 18, and I don't even drink.

What about teaching young people to drink properly? As in offering wine tasting and etiquette seminars to students? Maybe if young people KNEW how to drink, then they'd be more careful?

The problem isnt the age... the problem is the culture.

I rather see Greeks establish a culture of responsible drinking rather than lobbying for a change in the law. People will drink regardless of age restrictions... they should learn to drink responsibly.

Why get wasted all the time??? Hangovers suck anyway.

That's why young people need to know. For example, I KNOW that for my height and weight, I will start getting tipsy after two consecutive drinks (without food), so I try to nurse my drinks and only drink when there is lots of food available. Alcohol wasn't seen as a big sin in my family, so when I turned 19, I didn't go out to party and get wasted like many of my friends. In fact, my parents took me to a nice little restaurant and ordered me a glass of wine. :) My 19th birthday was also not my first "legal" drink, since I had gone to the Dominican Republic the spring before.

I am reasonably sure this has been mentioned before but I think it needs to be said again. When the full age of majority and the voting age were 21 it made at least some sense to regulate legal drinking at that age. However the age of majority and the voting age were lowered to 18 quite a few years back. If one is old enough to vote, to contract, to be seen in all things as an adult member of the citizenry and to be held accountable for one's actions as a full fledged adult it is hard to defend the 21 year restriction. There are considerations regarding propensity of younger people to over do it and get into/cause trouble, but equal justice under the law argues strongly that fair is fair and equality of treatment is a basic human right.
For me, the most basic argument is simply that if one is old enough to fight for and perhaps die for one's country then one is old enough to have a drink in that country. When I was wearing the green suit not a few of my troopers were theoretically too young to drink but they sure as hell were old enough to get shot at.

Just an observation here, as it regards this issue and the call to change drinking age limits. Speaking as an outsider, as it regards "Greeks," to my knowledge, specifically alcohol-related deaths in NPHC groups are neglible or non-existent. The perception among many black Greeks is that white Greek organizations are "drinking clubs," among other things. This is a stereotype but there must be some grain of truth to this assertion. I say this not so much to cast aspersions but to highlight that there must be a "cultural" phenomenon here, just as hazing deaths and the "culture of hazing" is the biggest risk management problem amongst NPHC groups. Is this a wrong-headed assumption?

No. White people in general like drinking and sex in college. It's our American dream.

-Rudey

Cant You see, Greeks have no say.

It is all our fault as Greeks and placing it on Whites as opposed to Blacks as a Orgainations it showing a lot of Ignoance.:rolleyes:

Abosulutly not. The last thing the Greek System needs is a nation wide push to drink more. For in a sense thats what we'd be doing. Let's face we're not the most liked people in the word so why contiue to shoot our selves in the foot?

Greeks do not Promote Drinking. We just party as Social Organizations!

True or False?

I'll agree with that. I could care less who drinks and doesn't.

Yah. Everyone at our parties always had fun, drinking or not. We have many guys in our ranks that never drank or at least never drank much.

One thing to consider, that bar and tavern lobby is really powerful (at least here in Wisconsin - what does that say about us?), and they couldn't get the drinking age to stay low. I was nightclub manager for years and know precisely how much it hurt the industry around here.

By the way, the drinking age switched sate by state. It's a state's-rights issue, not a federal issue. The feds just put pressure on states with that highway funding stuff. To the best of my knowledge, Wisconsin NEVER benefitted from federal highway funding. I can tell you exactly when it changed in Wisconsin because I missed the cutoff by one month when it switched from 18 to 19, and two months when it went from 19 to 21. (Sucked to be me in the 80s)

I would love for Wisconsin to consider a Beer/Wine law for 18-21 year olds, and I think a .00 BAC DUI/DWI tolerance with a mandatory 1-year license suspension would be very appropriate.

It was much more than "pressure," it was "you get $0 if you don't pass this law."

100% correct.

States were black mailed by the Fed. Govt. Do this or lose Highway Funds. I have stated this many times.

When 18 was Legal, Students could drink 3.2 beer and socialize in Kansas. Now, they get a chance to Hit THe Booze, they do full force and pay for it many times.:(