So you are absolutely certain that all the Abu Gharib prisoners had no information to give? There have been reports that some didn't but nobody has come out with any "absolute" statements yet.

-Rudey

As mentioned before, I'm going by the Army's official report by Maj. Gen. Anthony Taguba. That's where the 70% number originated.

70% is not 100% and I don't have the time to look at his report right now, but I thought that 70% was in reference to those that might not have information that were jailed. That doesn't even mean that all of those were subjected to this. I'm only going off what others have said in this thread and haven't read the actual report.

-Rudey

True, but this line of comments began when someone (don't remember who for sure) said that the people in this prison were there because they were trying to kill Americans. That apparantely is not true, or at least can't be proven at all, for 70% of them.

But I think it's a statistical likelyhood that some of those "innocent" folks were treated pretty badly. There lies the problem.

Had you been falsly arrested (or even mistakenly) and subjected to rigorous interrogation, you probably wouldn't be much of a happy camper in the end either.

While I do not condone any of this. what is the amount of lives that must be lost?:confused:

Anyone with a mind set who finds children and women and profess The Teachings of Allah are sending them out are l who do not profess this are little more than animals..

Mosques are Holy Places, for Musilums, but they hide there or in Cemetaries, hide there.

Do I know the feelings of these people who were oppressed by somepone who killed those who did not agree with Him

Now, the Infandels are the oppressors.

Just drop a damn bomb on them and say okay, you wanted to gas us, use children, women to kill us!

WOW, let liberal reign. This is war! We are having People Killed there everyday by these little deviouse means!

Da, they even killed their own President of the new Iraqi Govt.

I am really impressed by them!:mad:

How soon we forget so many things!j :(

Has your Husband, Wife, or Child been there? Have you been there?

Sorry D A I am not a bleeding liberal, not pointed at you at all!

If you are so full of fight, then go fight! Dont talk Crap!

I believe the last part of your statement touches on one of the more important things to consider about this whole thing... yes the Red Cross and Taguba both site 70-90%. Now if you only take into account Abu whatever and it's roughly 7500 "detainees", how many were not anti-coalition or anti-US when they first were detained?

Now after the treatment they recieved how many are going to be now? Culturally the shaming that they or their family endured has to be avenged if they are to save some face... or on another level they now have a personally beef with the coalition.

So you've done a mass psychoanalysis using your vast experience in the field?

-Rudey

One point I think many of us (myself included) don't give enough credence to is the import of our actions. This is not a Holy War...yet. We are fighting "terrorists". Yet, with each innocent that is killed or maimed, anger grows and Muslims unite. Nationalities are of course important, but weigh that against religion and it is dwarfed. We must avoid any actions that unify Muslims (with the blessings of our enemies) against us, in my opinion. I do think we are OK-JUST "OK" at this point, but if missteps and foul conduct continue to surface, we will go from the fire straight into the frying pan.

There are many different religions in this world. A warrior nation defined by religious beliefs is frightening to me.

The Top Dozen Organized Religions of the World
Religion: Members:
Christianity 2 Billion
Islam 1.2 Billion
Hinduism 785 Million
Buddhism 360 Million
Judaism 17 Million
Sikhism 16 Million
Baha'i 5 Million
Confucianism 5 Million
Jainism 4 Million
Shintoism 3 Million
Wicca .7 Million
Zoroastrianism .2 Million

Actually it's based on the cultural primer that I was given before going to the former Yugoslavia.... you know a brief run down of differing cultures, thier customs and practices, histories and current politics. It was a series of seminars for all the troops going over, given by previous troops, and "experts" from academia and other militaries; mostly they spent their time correcting media and personal misconceptions or preconeptions.....

How long was your primer? Did they award a PhD at the end of the primer?

-Rudey

Very true... after-all look at the damage that was caused by the crusades; attacks on non-christian nations and the institution of progoms directed against non-christians.

The closest modern history has seen to a war based on religion is one between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, whose ideologies were pseudo-religious.

It was part of the three months prep training, usually ever afternoon from 1-5pm Monday to Friday. At the end of it they patted us on the back as we got on the flight to Europe....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you or do you not?
 

Hmmmm, America is supposed to be "morally-superior" (according to rumsfeld) than any other nation. America, after all, stands of democracy ..right? well, let the soldiers keep violating BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS of POWs...while they smile for the camera. After all, this is war. KTSnake, if you look at the timeline, you will notice that the abuses of Abu Guraib occured BEFORE the beheading (which I absolutely, and without condition condemn), so your premise is way off. I think leadership in this country is corrupt (starting from the Bush and Co...all the way down to the Military). I sure hope that all people responsible will be prosecuted for their war crimes.


My heart goes out to all the abused and raped Iraqi men and women, as well as those bombed at their own wedding.

KTsnake, look at the pictures again. Do not tell me its justified! No one, criminal or not, deserves to be smeared with shit, made to eat pork and drink wine (knowing fully well its againt thier religion), beaten, tortured, raped and humiliated like that. How sick can they GET?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you or do you not?
 

I love people like you. They are stupid as stupid comes but I'll let ktsnake and some others chew on you.

-Rudey

Rudey,

The feeling is mutual ;) How about you chew on that!

You're stupid...really really stupid. That's not a feeling...get it?

-Rudey

IT WASN'T A WEDDING!

Re: Do you or do you not?
 

Did your heart go out them when they were living under a genocidal regime? I doubt it.

Re: Re: Do you or do you not?
 

Of course not...she was busy being an apologist for the women that were getting raped and all the honor killings because that's just OK in her book. But then again, she's an idiot.

-Rudey

Then why can't Cent. Com get it story straight....

First they claimed that military aircraft on patrol recieved hositle fire, and they responded with deadly force.

Next it comes out that they had been monitoring the location as a crossing point for foreign fighters, and an attack was made to exploit favourable conditions.

Next we here that it was a planned attack involving ground and air forces, to neutralize the threat posed by foreign fighters.

FOX News reports one side, Al Jazerra reports the opposite... the truth is most likely in the middle. Sure the site could have been a site used by foreign fighters crossing into Iraq, but that doesn't mean that any gather of people is related to that activity. In a war were intelligence relys on "native" intel. then local feuds and personal power plays may be made (see Chibali).... any mistake can be extremely dangerous to the public perception (whether justified or not) of the coalition forces, and therefore care must be taken in any action taken; unfortunately the sharp option is too often chosen by the US forces (which is what the latest leaked Brit memo expressed concern over).

There were massive amounts of weapons found there as well. On top of that several of the structures had hundreds of beds making it, most likely, a hotbed for travelling fighters, mostly foreign. I don't doubt some innocents died, but I do strongly believe that even more innocents would have died and more damage would have been done to the American forces.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Do you or do you not?
 

Actually, my heart did go out to them prior to the war. How does this justify what those u.s. soldiers did? was it better for them to be starved to death or made to eat pork and drink wine? hmmmm...I dont know Russ.

JustaMom,
It was a wedding. Both the bride and groom died.

Rudey,
We're not in grade school ok. Stop with the name-calling. N about the honor killing thing you are going off about, please stop with the slander. I never stated that honor killings and rape were "ok", so I dont know where you are getting all this from. But I can see from your latest statement that its "OK" for americans to bomb the hell out of a wedding because there was just NO possible way to get to the weapons without killing innocent people who are celebrating!

Re: Re: Re: Do you or do you not?
 

Oh ok.

-Rudey

So just what has been proven?:(

One side says one thing, another side says something else.:confused:

Each has film at 10:00 CST , but who says that that film is correct?:rolleyes:

All you who want to get on the dead horse, well spare the horse, it is tired.

I know one thing, people arte getting killed! Did some consider this?:confused:

_OPI_-I honestly heard it wasn't a wedding. Won't discount any spin on it though. They (media radio and TV) said that they were shooting guns (supposedly NOT that area's wedding custom) and there wasn't any food or drink, or even gifts around.
It is a known area for hiding terrorists and sympathizers.

You know what REALLY stinks? All of this is so confusing I honestly don't know WHAT to believe.




Moe.run HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!

Ask her to prove it was a wedding.

-Rudey

OK Rudey!

OPI, RA, what is your source that is WAS a wedding?

I'm just rolling along with this discussion, no animosity here.:)

No no don't phrase it like that. Ask it like this:

If it was a wedding why were there large stockpiles of weapons and structures with hundreds of beds, something travelling fighters would use often upon entering the country. Ask her for pictures and a story about the bride and groom.

-Rudey

Well the fact that a number of international news agencies have reported that there was most likely a wedding....
BBC Link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3741223.stm

Besides remember what the response was when the Gen. was confronted with "evidence" of a wedding? (It's in the article):
"Bad people have parties too..."

The perception problem regarding the incident (ie. which side is closer to the truth) stems from the fact that both sides have lost (if they had it) faith/trust in each other. The coalition needs to get it act together with media presentation and public relations... they are losing the PR war in Iraq.

However whether there was a wedding or not does really change the fact that innocent people died. Sure some "bad guys" were killed, but was the PR cost worth it? Don't really know (although the Iraqis are proving very savy in the PR war) Could there have been a better way of taking action? Again don't know but I suspect that there could have been.

You are amazing. You can quote Fox news word for word (not remember the anchor) and say you have a good memory, you can do psychological analyses on how Iraqis hate Americans, you have an honorary degree in beheadings and forensics, and now you received a PhD in Were American lives worth bad PR?

-Rudey

Justamom,

Iraqis bury victims of US strike

Hope the link works.


Rudey,

I'm sorry, but in Canada, there is no such thing as stoning :p

Here's another http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3741223.stm

Gee didn't realize that I was doing my disertation for you :)

Look I'm expressing my views and opinions (you guys still have free speech right? - ;) ). Also as amazing as it is to fathom, I'm not alone in my views...

The prediliction for US forces to resort to firepower over manpower (in order to avoid the risk of casualities) is what essentially I disagree with concerning the current situation in Iraq. I had hoped that the US forces could have learned from the UK forces in Iraq, or the NATO forces in Afghanistan, were methods taken are "softer". Now before you go off on one of your cute little rants... check out the following link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3739955.stm

Hmmm... guess what, others are having misgivings about US tactics....

I don't care if you talk. I talk back. I also don't care how you or other non-Americans feel about our PR. My interests lay solely with my country.

As for why there were weapons and so many beds and the people who were killed (almost all males)...well I guess you don't care about that.

-Rudey

While it's true that US officers are taught to use overwhelming firepower and tactical air and other high tech wepons, if it saves American lives, I can't find a lot of fault there. If there are civilian casualties on the other side, that is a real shame, but an unfortunate part of war. (Purposely killing or maiming of non-combatants is another story entirely.) War is not a nice thing.

On the other hand, RA's right to express his opinion is one of our ideals, and rightly so.

This entire paragraph is nonsense . . . by 'nonsense' I want to remove any modern connotation behind it, and merely point out that you don't make a real point here. It's just talking for the sake of talking.

As for the 'wedding' . . . you know what, I don't even know where to start, so I'll just play our little game of 'anecdotal evidence matters in arguments' and say, "4 charred bodies hanging from a bridge . . . but you'll just spin that into something anti-American military as well, I'm sure, because you're willing to take the word of the Iraqi PR machine as long as it is passed to the BBC by al-Jazeera. Very intelligent, I think."

I think I'll agree with KSig RC on the source of the info.
A little questionable because there is an agenda behind many things the BBC does...even within it's own country.

Well, let's draw a comparison. How many times (which I really don't know) have innocent Americans been killed because they were near a "target".
During the World Wars and all the other "conflicts" how many innocent Italians-Germans-Frenchmen-Vietnamese-Japanese, Spaniards -(you get the idea) were killed.

Should we have bailed on our fight against Hitler? Should we have closed our eyes to Pearl Harbor? In our own Civil War, MANY innocents were killed as brother stood against brother. Was THAT a just cause? There seems to be two distinct schools of thought. Those who believe Iraq, Afghanistan...Saudi Arabia and Syria present a "real and present danger", and those who don't.
Those who DON'T... have you forgotten the shock, the horror and the pain of 9-11 as over 3000 of OUR innocents were killed?

Tom is right. THIS IS WAR. War is ugly. Innocent people DO get killed. To exploit every single perceived "innocent's" death does NOTHING to help defeat this enemy. I've said this before-I agree with O'Reilly-this IS WWlll. IMO , those who give comfort to the enemy are just as guilty-have hands just as dirty-as those supplying them with money and ammunition.


You know, once this UN "Oil for Food" scandal is unraveled, we will see who has the REAL agenda...Notice the "positions" and influence of those getting the bribe.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040420-1.html
...The inquiries into the United Nations Oil-for-Food program result from the release in January of a list of 270 individuals, companies and institutions that allegedly received lucrative oil contracts from Saddam Hussein's former regime in return for political support...Oil vouchers were allegedly given either as gifts or as payment for goods imported into Iraq in violation of the U.N. sanctions...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (two separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spain
Ali Ballout, Lebanese journalist: 8.8 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yugoslavia
The Socialist Party: 22 million
Kostunica's Party: 6 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Canada
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of Oilexco: 9.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Italy
Father Benjamin, a French Catholic priest who arranged a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz: 4.5 million
Roberto Frimigoni: 24.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
South Africa
Tokyo Saxwale: 4 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jordan
Shaker bin Zaid: 6.5 million
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy: 5 million
Fawaz Zureikat: 6 million
Toujan Al Faisal, former member of Parliament: 3 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lebanon
The son of President Lahoud: 5.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egypt
Khaled Abdel Nasser: 16.5 million
Emad Al Galda, businessman and Parliament member: 14 million
Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Qatar
Hamad bin Ali Al Thany: 14 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chad
Foreign minister of Chad: 3 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brazil
The October 8th Movement: 4.5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Myanmar (Burma)
The minister of the Forests of Myanmar: 5 million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ukraine
The Social Democratic Party: 8.5 million
The Communist Party: 6 million
The Socialist Party: 2 million
The FTD oil company: 2 million

I said this to DeltAlum before. It won't get out. Nothing will. Why? Well there was a great op-ed on the civil war among the different American groups (ie the CIA vs Pentagon vs State Department). To ensure UN involvement (ie a political move) the State Department has given in and made sure certain things are not investigated (ie UN involvement). Brahimi, the UN envoy who is helping out in Iraq, is being given more power, Ahmed Chalabi who was spearheading an audit was knocked down 5 notches so no such audit could occur, Sunnis in the region are pushing for greater political power (with UN endorsement as well as the direct push by Brahimi an Algerian) at the expense of Shiites and Kurds again.

People need to wake up. The large population of countries in this world will not sit still at their expense if they will be implicated. The US is under immense political pressure to get UN backing and won't even push the investigation. It won't happen. The Arab thugs, the UN hoodlums, and the Russian/French/Syrian dirt will all have blood on their hands and nobody will care.

-Rudey

That story says nothing. They said it was a wedding and they said a singer died. The US said it was not a wedding. What did you just prove with this post? Why don't you show us the evidence this was just a wedding and show us how weapons, fighters, so many males, so many beds were just doing at a wedding? Why don't you show us the picture of the bride and groom killed that you were talking about? While you're digging up news show us where there were US soldiers raping and feeding pork and wine to iraqis. And then tell us again how it's better that they die than eat pork and drink wine because in your idiot head that probably makes sense.

-Rudey

Ah yes... the we do not commit acts as evil as Saddam... so therefore we are good...

Bullshit... wrong is wrong, evil is evil... The US was (obstenably) founded on the principle of religious freedom and basic human rights - and those rights apply to everyone.... not whom you chose as "worthy".