Hence my post subject - "Slightly off topic... but it's an interesting debate"; the post replied to preciousjeni's and did comment on some things she'd brought up or things that struck me after reading what she brought up. I fully accept there was some thread (topic) drift from original issues.Yes.Yes. All three of us.
I think the poor representation in the media issues brought up which preciousjeni I think saw what I was trying to say are issues for another thread.

End thread drift! ;)

It's me again
 

I was looking for the articles on a case that happened at UGA while I was in school. I'm really not trying to bring any more bother to Pikes, but this one really disturbed me. Perhaps it would really benefit Pi Kappa Alpha to overhaul their Risk Management directives and begin adjusting their reputation!!

First Article:
Pi Kappa Alphas investigated in physical assault case

Article with statement by chapter president:
Harris enters not guilty plea

Resolution:
News Notebook

Sounds like the fraternity was pretty stand-up about the whole thing. University said they were fully cooperative, and the chapter itself was not involved.

This happened at Ole Miss about two years ago. One of the frats was having a halloween party at their house and one guy had painted his face black and another dressed as a sheriff had a gun to his head. The pics should up online thanks to party pics and the newspaper figured it out and the two ivolved were kicked out of the frat and the frat got kicked off campus for a year.

Thats a lot of run on sentences.

I attend Georgia State University, where this incident occurred, and I thought that you all would like to see the e-mail the university president sent out...

To the Pikes in here, I realize that the organization as a whole is not racist, but something needs to be done to change these behaviors. I feel for you all because I know some of the Pikes at Georgia State, and they're good guys. But many of them that came to the campus discussion we had walked out and never came back...

Thanks for the update! Much Greek Love to you and my Sorors of the Zeta Chapter (GA State U.)

:) pj

lovelyzeta1920, thanks for posting that.

As a GSU alum I'm glad President Patton is doing something about this! I'm also extremely happy that GSU students are NOT standing for this type of behavior because it's not acceptable. Period.

I hope they get legal represenstation to deal with this supsension nonesense.

Sheez, people are vindictive as hell after a minor incident involving some people dressing up in a way that will offend the overly sensitive.

I agree with James. Georgia State is a public institution, and they are not allowed to curtail constitutional rights. Freedom of Speech is designed to protect offensive speech.

The GSU president deserves to be fired for acting in such an illiberal manner.

Wait, though, I wasn't aware of GA State's Code of Conduct. Most schools state that when a student/student organization breaches the Code of Conduct the consequences can be severe (i.e. expulsion).

Since when does any public institution's code of conduct take priority over the constitutionally protected freedoms?

That code of conduct should be found to be illegal.

Warshay Is Absolutely Correct!
 

They can establish all the "Codes" they want, but none can trump the Constitution. The college President is posturing for benefit of his liberal constituency. When he says the Pike National Office is not cooperative, my guess is that means they didn't move immediately to shut down the chapter because a couple of guys did something hurtful and stupid. Typlical: 'we want you to cooperate while we beat you to death for our own political agenda.'
I agree that wearing blackface is hurtful, wrong and stupid. But it's not illegal, and the public university is absolutely prohibited from punishing it as speech. Truth is, it probably wasn't "speech" at all; it was probably just immature and irresponsible horseplay that they thought was funny. The chapter has Black members for goodness sakes! They need to be shaken up because they wear our Pike letters, but I'm not ready to turn them over to those who seem to relish being offended over every real or imagined slight.

I'm far from racist.... But from what I read in the initial post, I don't really see anything wrong with what they did...

- It was a hip-hop themed party, black folks have definately had a large influence in today's culture... So whats so wrong with that?

- It doesn't seem that they were discriminating in any way. Unless they were acting in a "stereotypical" way or in a way that suggests racisim, they're merely dressing for the theme of the party.

Now I can definately understand if they decided to show up as slaves or something distasteful and degrading like that... But come on... This seems like one of those far stretched issues where every single thing becomes 'racism'.

If you take an event, having racism in mind and looking for it, you're sure to find it... Seems now adays almost anything can be perceived as being racist or discriminating... People just need to chill and be more open minded when it comes to these things... (in my opinion)

You can totally disagree with me, and thats fine.. But theres my 2 cents... Thx!

-Matt

try telling that to someone black...if this is such a minor incident, go to the local BCC and do it.

these pikes were being bigots.

I agree that they were being bigots, but bigoted expression is still constitutionally protected.

This is not about being overly sensitive. Yes, you can say whatever you want and it's constitutionally protected. But maybe you all know, or don't know, that when you agree to attend a particular institution that you agree to certain things when you sign the application. If the university says what you have done is above and beyond what they consider to be acceptable then you can and will be dismissed.

And just for the record, blackface is NOT just an act of stupidity. ANYONE remotely familiar with the times in which this was done would know that to perpetuate that now, in ANY shape or form, is not only offensive but SHOULD require some action on the part of your governing body. You DO NOT have to paint yourself Black to emulate an African American. There are no ways to justify this (ie the best jazz musicians of the time were Black so it was just a representation of the time) and if you are trying to do so I'd like to have a really good makeup artist paint you Black for a week or so and let you experience some of the straight out hatred people inflict on you just because you are a minority. It's insulting at BEST to say I was only trying to imitate xyz by temporarily painting yourself another color. It's not funny, it's not cool and at the end of the day if you think it is you need to take a look at yourself.

Thank you for your input, msn4med1975!

To help a little, near the middle/bottom of page three of this post, I posted a very basic explanation of why blackface was used. It doesn't get into the entire truth but it gives you an idea.

There are no excuses for people to view this thread without understanding blackface!

Lovelyzeta1920,

Thank you for positing the update and e-mail from the University President. I, for one, think that the actions of the Pikes at GSU were not in good taste. But what really gets my goat is that many of them came to this discussion and then left. To me, that is very disrespectful and not representative of Greeks as a whole.

We can read the thread to see the debate about constitutionality and all that, but really what this comes down to is tolerance. Is a lack of tolerance on the Pikes part cause for charter removal? Probably not. Does it show a huge amount of immaturity and unwillingness to work for a better resolution? Definitely.

KEPike,

you're right the chapter should not have it's charter REVOKED for being stupid and insensitive. But some sanction against the chapter seems warranted. Even if that just was diversity training (but that can only be as effective as the audience is receptive to hearing it) something should be done.

You don't need to paint your face "black" to follow the theme of a hip-hop party. Nowdays, hip-hop transcends race and culture, and people of all ages, colors, religions, etc. enjoy it and are part of the hip-hop community. Those boys could have easily come dressed in hip-hop style clothing or found another way to follow the theme of the party. I don't buy for one minute that they "had no idea" they would offend anyone.

why is everyone calling these kids stupid? these boys knew exactly what they were doing when they put it on. these fools just got caught, don't act like this isn't an isolated incident nor is this the last time something like this will happen. it wouldn't surprise me if more stuff like this went on. it's '04..you think things would be different. it's just stupid that they think people would actually buy their argument that they didn't know it would offend anyone.

You're right. They didn't *need* to paint their faces black to follow the hip-hop theme. But hip-hop was started and is still mostly influenced by black people. If their intentions were merely to dress for the theme, then I don't see anything wrong with what they did.

I may be missing the point completely. It happens a lot. But where I went to high school, where the black population is roughly 35%... Issues like this tend to lose dramatic effect. Black students regularly would call up the whole "racism" thing to get their way, to get others in trouble or just to get attention... And sadly this takes a lot away from my sympathy on issues like this...

If these guys were being blatantly racist, I totally agree and think that it is wrong. But given their situation and the theme of the party, I just fail to see what the huge deal is. If a black person decided to paint his face white, it would be a totally different issue.


---- Also -- While blackface in the old days was used for entertainment while making fun of blacks, many of the shows also included african americans in the acts or side-shows to dance or sing... This led to blacks staring in major roles and then to the black theatre movement. (Movies like cabin in the sky, raisin in the sun, etc)

One word...Eminem. Get with it people. This is just such a disgrace!!

because black folks are the pioneers of the hip hop culture, it's ok to put on black face at a "hip hop" themed party? are you serious?


:confused:

He also said "If a black person decided to paint his face white, it would be a totally different issue."

Now there are two people confused here (maybe more). :confused:

I love to hear this argument. Because someone at some point in time EXPLOITED an issue, whether it's racism or sexism or whatever, doesn't mean that when someone else raises the issue that it's not valid. And I'm sick of people, usually white individuals, trying to play the issue out like it's moot because one person in their life took advantage (if they actually did so and it wasn't just their perception) of a situation. I'm sure some of my counterparts in HS thought we were using the "race card" to have a Black history month program by alerting the media and school board of a planned walk out the last week in January. What they would have missed was us TRYING very hard to work with the administration BEHIND the scenes to come to an agreement on something we could both live with.

Black face EVENTUALLY led to more opportunities for Black actors but guess what? They ALSO had to perform in BLACKFACE. In case you were wondering, watch an interview from someone that performed during that time (and they do exist) and they will tell you that it was one of the most demeaning ways of making an existence. To have their NATURALLY Black faces painted over and their physical features exagerrated to entertain people who couldn't care less about them at the end of the day. An accurate understanding of how detrimental that was to the Black community would NEVER allow someone to even think it might be okay.

And no matter what the theme of the party was it does not require you to demean anyone else to get your point across. Not to mention that over the last four years at least five incidents like this have made national news and in NONE of those situations was anyone like oh it was just a joke let the boys slide so what would possess someone to think we'll give it the old college try and hope no one gets offended THIS time?

I'm not saying that it was a good thing they did. It wasn't. But honestly, do you think that if they knew they would offend so many people and that it would cause such a mess that they would have went through with it?

I think they ignorantly decided to do what they did to fit the theme of their party. What they did (as others have mentioned) is also lawfully allowed by the constitution. Although I wouldn't have chosen to do what they had, I'd definately fight the University in court.

I just think it sucks that such issues aren't judged on intentions but as general perception. Everyone ignorantly does something from time to time which happens to offend SOMEONE. Did you mean to do it? No. Does that make it right? Depends, usually not. Should you be punished for it? I don't think so... Not this harshly. It seems that it was just a brain fart on someones part where they did not think about the negative consequences. Happens everyday. Be upset at the hate groups out there commiting hate crimes, not at the ignorant kids who went out to have a good time but did not think a great deal about what they were doing...

--- Please don't think I'm trying to defend what they did and say it was "alright." I'm just trying to see both sides, express my opinion and be open minded :( ---

Well the point I'm trying to make is that in each of the previous incidents MORE people were offended than were not. It wasn't an isolated incident, there was national coverage and sanctions by EACH of the universities and governing bodies of the fraternities. How could you NOT know the possibility that offending someone exists, even if you JUST look at the other inicidents in Oklahoma, Tennesee, Ohio etc etc, and if it does why do it. Are there times when I have unintentionally offended someone? Yes but the difference is I was woman enough to admit that I had and take responsibility for it by apologizing and trying to figure out why. That is something this chapter has YET to demonstrate.

Ah :(
Accidents don't become mistakes until you refuse to correct them... And that certainly includes apologizing. I'd think the least they could do is apologize. Especially after realizing they had offended others. I see your point.

-Matt

I wasn't there, but my understanding would be that the atmosphere of the meeting would not have been actually very fair or proportional to what happened. If they walked into an extremely hostile environment what incentive is there for them to stay? To play the victim so that other people could feel better about themselves?

I am sure they would have stayed in any logical rational discussion.

thanks for understanding :D

I'm sorry. I'm just too tired of seeing this stuff, and then these threads, year after year.

The arguments never change, and nobody seems to learn any lessons either.

Rudey has used the correct word, though. Stupidity.

by saying that you don't think anything is wrong with it, you're defending them. i don't think these kids cared whether or not they offended anyone. they're just sorry that they got caught. and again, why is everyone calling them ignorant? they knew exactly what they were doing.

Okay here's my .02 cents!

Whether it was an hip-hop party or a slave auction what the Pikes did was WRONG!

But I'm not surprised that the Pikes did this, it sounds like par for the course in my opinion. We have a Pike chapter at my school and females (GDI's & Sorors) have been told by not only other females, but also by males to stay away from the Pikes.

They've become known as the Ruffie/GHB Fraternity on my campus.

They've been on probation and suspended several times by the univeristy and I've been told that their nationals put them on serious probation for a time, but it didn't change anything they did what they had to do to get off probation and then everything was business as usual for the Pikes (so to speak)

A female friend of mine was hit in the face by a Pike during a fight with GDI's and other fraternity members at a frat party. The Pike broke her nose as she was trying to leave the party once the fight broke out. Several guys went to the hospital after suffering serious injuries. Oh and by the way the Pikes started the fight.

I know that there are several active and alumni of Pi Kappa Alpha on this thread and I know I will probably recieve some negative comments for my post, but I'm just stating what I know about the Pikes on my campus and I'm sure that the fraternity on a national level does not condone nor participate in actions that these two chapters have done.

A couple of thoughts. First and foremost, I of course do not think that the decision these particular Pikes made was intelligent, respectful, or right in any way.

However. I can't figure out if they were being intentionally disrespectful in their attempt at humor, if they were just moronically ignorant about the implications.

I know that they should know. I realize that this is an important facet of the history of music/film/comedy/Black history/etc. And I would be surprised if these guys hadn't been in at least one high school or college basic history class that mentioned what blackface was, what it represented, and how people (black and white) felt about it.

But the thing is, some people don't want to know. Some people are so ignorant about tons of different cultures, and their particular subcultures and pop cultures, that it is plausable to consider that maybe these guys were like that.

I know this sounds ridiculous. But think of this way- if you're, say, a white guy who has been raised to believe that, to some degree, blacks or other minorities are inferior- then do you pay that much attention during black history month? I'm positive that there are people who may or may not acknowledge that they have racist tendencies- but still disregard information that contradicts their world view, and/or discusses things they feel are inferior.

Which is not to say that their own ignorance excuses their actions. If we followed that precedent then there's a whole bunch of people who wouldn't be in jail right now. But I think there's a chance that these are the type of guys who zone out during parts of classes that they aren't interested in, memorizing what you need for the test and then totally spacing on it two days later. Hell, we all do that to some degree. But it frustrates me that stupid people do stupid things that contribute to racism and the perception of racism- I mean crap, it is 2004, and this is such pointless behavior.

I don't think they should get kicked off campus or in legal trouble- it's true, they have the right to be as insulting as they want. But the University has a right to protect the mental well being of its students, and provide them with a place to learn where they will be respected. I definitely think that some extreme diversity awareness training should be mandatory for these guys.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Corina

My cousin goes there...
 

and the PIKEs there have always been a$$holes. They desearve this. They've been asking for it.

Re: My cousin goes there...
 

Do you go to the same school as them? If not, it isn't fair to judge an entire fraternity on your opinions of one of its chapters... Although it is true that each of their chapters represent their fraternity.

To the Pi Kappa Alphas on this thread
 

What kind of nationwide programming does your fraternity offer for diversity/sensitivity training? If there is none, have you petitioned to have this training implemented?

Re: Re: My cousin goes there...
 

I have been with her on several of her sorority socials, philanthropy things-whatever. I've partied with them on a few occassions b/c I was with her. They are A$$holes. There may be one or two exceptions, but everyone I've ever met were. My brother went there about 7 or 8 years ago-he said they were buttholes then too.

BTW-not judging the whole fraternity as a national-just this chapter. However, if I am remembering the article posted correctly, their national is not doing anything about it. Makes you wonder. Personally, since it was an off campus party, I don't think the University should have the right to do anything about it if it wasn't a university related thing. HOWEVER, their (inter?)national should have been down there raising all sorts of hell. So since their national isn't shutting them down, I hope the university does.

And that's all i got to say about that.