Sometimes it's difficult for people to understand that just because it's written in a book or a newspaper, it doesn't always translate to absolute truth. Anything written is subject to the opinions of the author. Life experiences often tell another story.

That's the point.

Are we into age discrimination now? Just Kidding.

You seem bright to me. :)

If Rudey is a super genius, then you are at least a genius. :p It's all relative. Now you should share with us your memories of the Beatles in the overrated thread.

Re: Re: Re: huh?
 

Where do education standards and marketable skills factor into the equation?


In the US, Asians have the highest per capita income. They also have the highest percentage of 2 parent households and the highest educations levels. Is their per capita income a result of their skin, hair or Eurocentric features or is it becuase they have the highest education standards?

Re: Re: Re: Re: huh?
 

I've heard that Asians have higher average incomes because in more traditional famlies, teens who work don't make money for themselves, but to contribute to the household income. A family of four, with two high school aged kids may have 3 incomes (high school kids working part time). I don't know anyone who had to do that, growing up, however. Also, Asians who do make more money tend to be in the health or technical fields, which can give pretty decent incomes, even at lower levels.

Okay, this is my experience. I am a geriatric counselor; I visit clients, sum up the type of help they need, and then send the appropriate person.

Most of the people we subcontract are nurses aides and companions. There are some excellent ones who have burnt out on having 25 patients a day in a nursing home but are wonderful on a one to one situation, and there are others who are doing this work because, frankly, they don't know what else they can do.

I wish I had a nickel for each time I've scheduled the person I thought would be best, and immediately gotten a telephone call from a distraught son or daughter saying, "Of course, I'm not prejudiced, but Mother is very old school..." or the sort. I try to explain that this is a person I would have take care of my own mother - doesn't make a difference. One beautiful, lovely woman of color had a door slammed in her face after the man said, "We've never had a n** in our house!"

My career has made me see a side that I have never really experienced before, and there's a lot of heartbreak involved. And yes, there has been reverse discrimination in our field, too.

I don't know what the answer or solution is - I just know that there are times when I realize that my life is easier simply because of my birth. Maybe that's why, as I delve into my own genealogy, I also try to learn as much as I can about doing African-American genealogy. As my mama has said so many times, there have been blacks on this continent as long as there have been whites, and we have an obligation to try to get along!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: huh?
 

Hon I'm trying to understand what you're saying but I don't speak giberish.

-Rudey

"Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill . . . ."

Damn. Found out again!

Re: Re: Re: Re: huh?
 

White skin privilege is deeper than that and isn't so easily measured

I feel this bears repeating.

Are you sure about this (i.e got this from the US Dept of Labor's website) or is this something that you've "heard"?

Even if what he's saying isn't true, I'd like to know why underfunded schools in areas like NYC that have asian populations with lower incomes manage to send lots of kids to college (and good colleges often) than the black schools. I'm just interested.

-Rudey

Check this place out ... I'm just going to post the website since I don't know how to make the link work...

http://www.tolerance.org

It is really neat because you can take tests to determine if you do have hidden biases based on color, age, weight, sexual preference etc. I was surprised at some of my results, and it was an eye opener for me. I think we all have biases in some way or another against certain groups. Perhaps by recognizing where we are biased, we can start to make changes in ourselves and be more sensitive to others.

ETA - The link works (or did for me) and if you look on the website in the Dig Deeper section you'll see "find your hidden biases".

Because Asian families stress education and make sure that their kids do well. Often, the parents are only in lower income jobs because of a lack of English skills and/or "US Experience" (I don't know if this term is used in Stateside, but immigrants often have trouble getting work here in Canada because they lack "Canadian Experience"). Many of these immigrants are highly educated, sometimes with multiple degrees.

where did you get that from?

-Rudey

Well, I DO know that lots of immigrants ARE highly educated, but are unable to get work here because they don't have the English skills, because their credentials aren't recognized here or because they "lack Canadian experience". I've heard it from family friends and relatives who have just come to the country.

Culture, not skin color. The value placed on education is extremely high.

And parental involvement.

American culture is weak in one aspect in that kids aren't pushed enough by their parents unless they're Tiger Woods.

So the solution isn't throwing money at schools. It's not going to "create equality".

-Yedur
--French kisses to all the American girls out there.

off track
 

sooo, to go back to the topic of the thread...

why are people so afraid of discussing topics like this? why does it have to go to "reverse discrimination" and "Asians do well in this country, Blacks just don't try hard enough" and etc. etc. If you want to talk about that start another thread.

This is about the Eurocentric power structure in our society and the world. Not "fat" people. Not "ugly" people. Not little Billy from down the block and around the corner who got made fun of because he wore glasses.

if you don't want to discuss it, just don't post. how's that sound?

Re: off track
 

And you are saying it's eurocentric vs blacks while everyone else is trying to break up eurocentric and tell you asians don't fit into the eurocentric label you created. What don't you understand?

-Rudey

And I think this plays into the idea of white skin privilege. A lot of people operate under the idea that all minorities in the US face the same discrimination regardless of race, which is clearly not true. I think it's pretty clear that the average white American is going to be more intimidated by a black male than an Asian male, and the degree of their fear/intimidation is going to affect how they treat this person.

As we've discussed in other threads, the American historical context of racism versus specific groups is so different (African-American slavery, Native American reservations, Asian-Americans and WW2, etc.) that of course not all groups are going to be affected the same way.

If "throwing money at the schools" isn't the answer, what is? For the record, there have been some very successful efforts in which the "culture" which supposedly doesn't stress education or "success" enough has been overridden by creative and intuitive teachers (the example that comes to mind is a school where a huge number of lower-class Hispanic immigrants learned calculus and did well on the AP calc tests). I don't think that's an issue of money, though, just of method. But money is an easier solution than going out and finding more incredibly dedicated, incredibly talented teachers -- and money can certainly help with finding those people. But that's got more to do with education than it does with the topic at hand.

You watch too many movies...it keeps you from understanding statistics.

How about black immigrants vs american blacks? Who does better there?

And your statement about being afraid of black males: 1) I'd be more afraid of anyone young because I don't see an older person attacking me, 2) I'd be more afraid of a man because not too many females really intimidate me, and 3) what is this based on?? Do you actually have facts about this or do you just want to scream about inequality? At the end of the day, if I'm not in a nice little neighborhood and a young male walks near me I will take a bit more caution.

Here's another one for you: The only credible crime study ever links crimes to community involvement. When a neighbor calls another neighbor to tell her that her kids are hanging out on street corners, when a neighbor picks up garbage off the sidewalk just because she enjoys the community, etc. Why is it that certain communities have neighbors who care?? Is it because of white skin privilege or a deep rooted culture??

This whole thread is actually stupid. You want the damn answer to your original question enlightenment? The answer is yes, there is racism and blacks are at a disadvantage a lot. The answer comes from studies where men apply for jobs with different names or go in for interviews and the white guys gets hired even if he's not as qualified. So it's there. Why do you ask when you know the damn answer?

I don't know how to stop it but you have to separate that racism from something else that is keeping a whole class of people back. That is a whole other issue and most of you can't seem to understand that. The other problem does not get solved by throwing money at it. It doesn't get solved by having after-school programs (actually more like football camps because I never even see afterschool programs anymore). Nothing gets solved like that. NYC schools are attempting to get parents more involved by having a paid parent to call other parents and get them involved.

-Rudey

Rudey, Hi, I'm Phasad1913. I've never posted anything directly to you and I have only recently begun to post on the board although I've been an avid reader for a few years now. However, I wanted to say this: I think you have an over simplified view of things, and I think you want to oversimplify the way you look at things so you won't have to look deeper into yourself or at the issue at hand to try to understand them or others the issue involves. That isn't anything new, though...it's one of the main reasons why these sorts of problems don't get fixed. You may or may not even realize this but you do as indicated through your comment: "I don't know how to fix it..." and "You want your damn answer, Why do you ask when you know the damn answer?" You're getting upset about him asking a question that he clearly is curious about instead of doing what everyone else is doing and exploring ideas in an effort to think critically about this REAL issue.

Anyway, this bothered me because it's all too common. When people are required to think too much about a problem that they are sensitive about, i.e. race issues, they get defensive and try to deminish the credibility of the initiator of the conversation or trivialize the issue. This is not trivial to those of us who deal with racism on a daily basis...and I'm not exaggerrating.

I don't know how to fix the problem either, but I do feel its a worth while task for all of us who live in this country. As a Chistian who takes the notion of loving they neighbor and doing unto others as I would want others to do unto me very seriously, I certainly don't think whites who do harm to non-whites would want the same done to them and I'm willing to help them and whomever else get away from that sickness.

I don't think we really need statistics to substantiate Enlightened's claim of fear and threat because racism in America is as old as the country itself and racism in general is as old as time itself and it has been studied time and time again and the root has been determined to come from these sorts of feelings among other reasons. So, again, let's not try to disect things that we know or should know by now are definite indicators of the problem.

Also, yes, deep rooted cultural phenomena have a direct impact on plenty of societal areas, including education, but please don't generalize all black youth and/or people. There are PLENTY young people who live in so-called "disadvantaged communities" who do well in school, earn scholarships and go on to good colleges and do well. They aren't all being denied parental involvement, afterschool programs, etc. etc. and ESPECIALLY parental/community support and discipline for valuing their education. As a black person, member of the black "community" as well as heavily involved with community activities and programs for these very younth, I KNOW how much education is valued in our communities, homes and culture.

So, while I don't know you or what your experiences have been, I do know about my culture and young black americans (and there are all kinds of them) so I think you can take it from me and as far as Asians, their "success" in America is for their various reasons. They are not us. We have a different story, with different and other successes. While they show one set of stats and numbers, don't compare them to us, there are many Asians in inner cities who are just as lax in their educational pusuit as anyone else, whites too.

So, yeah this was mainly directed at Rudey, but hopefully others of you can appreciate my perspective and use some of what I've said, however long (lol) to help shape a broader view.

lata.

wow
 

Phasad, that was one of the best posts I've ever seen on GC


I'll give a perfect example of white skin privilege right now: this thread

I asked a question about white skin privilege, of which the basis is "white" people- not blacks, asians, latinos, etc. etc.

I started this thread in the hopes of learning about this topic, to see what other people thought, to see if maybe, it doesn't exist

however this thread shows me that it does, and is very strong

doesn't anybody else think it's funny that a thread about white skin privilege has so much emphasis on people who are not white?

thanks for the lesson

oh, and rudey- I never said it blacks versus anyone. how does asking about white skin privilege equate blacks vs. xyz?

Because that's how you always make it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you bring up Arab Americans and how they are treated ever since 9-11? Why don't you bring up Asians that were treated poorly in the past? Why don't you bring up Jews who lost many ancestors or even close family members during the Holocaust?

Why?

Because everything is black and white to you.

All these people I'm sure have felt the same kind of pain that you do now. It's called history. I'm not trying to downplay the way slaves were treated or how you are treated now. There was the civil rights movement, that one school that I wish I could remember that I learned in my speech class (that I might add where Rosa Parks got her motivation from), and now you have affirmative action which in SOME cases shits on whites. There are going to be bigots all the time no matter how much you argue it or how many details, statistics or whatever you give.

editted for spelling

I'm not oversensitive. I also don't have to worry about what my ancestors did because I like them was not an anglo.

The answer is there. There is white priviledge. I don't understand why you need to ask it. How many times have you read about the studies with people going for interviews? How many times have you seen a poster with a white man and a black man asking which commited the crime except they're both the same man? That makes me not want to examine something? No not at all. It makes me wonder why someone would ask a question that is the equivalent of "Is the pope catholic?".

I also don't oversimplify. I answered the first question and the rest well I don't have an answer for. Is that saying I can't think, haven't thought, or don't care? No. Not really. Is it saying I don't have an answer just like nobody does because if they did the problem wouldn't be there? Yeah really it is.

And I do like numbers. They prove something to me. If they didn't a whole lot of nothing could ever be proven in the world.

The topic of immigrants came up and I discussed that. Were you too sensitive on this issue? Well I don't know because I don't know you. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to give it thought. But given the fact that so many black youths are in jail, that so many black youths don't do well in school, then I can venture to say that one problem might be parental involvement. I didn't say all black have bad parents who don't care. But let's not look at everything through rose colored glasses.

So the issue is how does white privilege manifest itself and how can it be manipulated. How can you examine that without looking at other situations such as other immigrants? Even black immigrants. How can it be done without looking through a socioeconomic point of view?

Phasad I stand by my words. It does exist but not to the point that it's the reason for holding back an entire class of people. On top of that I believe in the freedom to choose who you can like. I believe in the right of someone to hate me for who I am...to think all the vile things that he can of me. I reserve the right to say it's shameful, to let others know the shame that he carries on his back. And when the day comes that this person chooses to burn a cross at my front door, harass me, go out and actively prevent my schooling or getting a job is the day I consider it crossing the line.

Your friend enlightenment is a bit quick on the gun. He likes to make claims that don't exist and I can think of several occasions where I've corrected him.

-Rudey
--And if you write longs posts, then so do I.

God bless
 

May God bless us all. I wish everyone a wonderful weekend, especially Rudey and PM_Mama00. May we all walk the path to a better understanding.

ITs misleading. Generally these success stories are statistical outliers otherwise they wouldn't be noteworthy or stand out right?

What they generally come down is not money, but rather an exceptional individual or small group of individuals who have the knowledge/experience/luck to make a difference.

Its more of a criticism than anything else to the average people in teaching who themselves don't make much of a difference. They are basically generic teachers that could be replaced by almost anyone.

Ok. Well we know it exists.

Is it bad? Only if you are the wrong side of it.

What can we do about it?

Assimilate.

If you look aht history of other immigrant groups coming into the states, they are hated for a generation or so and then they assimilate adopting the language, dress, and basic cultural patterns of the parent culture.

African american youth Culture, which seems to be a hodgpodge of stuff, hasn't successfully assimilated in language, dress, or basic patterns.

I have heard there are reasons for this lol . . . but I'm sleepy. There are some books on it also . . .

But the lack of assimilation delays full acceptance.

Also, another comprison has to be made about how Blacs are treated in other countries. Are there the same problems?

Yes, but there are some immigrant groups who come here, but still maintain their way of dress (at least some of the time). However. they seem to be at least somewhat accepted. Take Indian women, for example. Many wear saris to work (sometimes, anyway), yet they seem to do well. Indian children do well in school and often get successful jobs. They are more "old country" than, say, Chinese immigrants.

Ok I am going to try really hard not to be offensive, b/c that is not my intent....

But you brought up a good point.

You say that Indian women sometjmes wear saris to work, and aren't discriminated against.
1) Picture a sari vs. what it seems like you guys are calling a "black" way of dressing for "african american youth culture" (taken from James).....for example, for a long time it was/is popular for guys to wear such baggy pants that their boxers hang out. That makes it much harder for them to assimilate- I would think an employer would much rather see a person in a sari, which is essentially a full length, somewhat fancy dress (ok not fancy but dressier than casual), than see a person with their underwear hanging out. Again, personal preference, but that immediately sets a person apart.

2) Indians often wear saris if they are still into their traditions, in some areas Jewish men wear yalmukes even while they go shopping/to the dr/work/whatever....but blacks have a much bigger presence in pop culture, on tv, etc. I know its not comparable to what whites have, but I think we'd have to admit that blacks own a bigger chunk of american culture than other minorities. (I'm not really counting Hispanics because while they have their own tv and radio stations and a relatively big chunk of advertising in some cities, their use of a foreign language sets them apart.) Where am I going with this?? Ok well the MAIN media messages people get could, for the purpose of this discussion, be classified into white, black, and other. If the majority of black people on tv, in movies, etc, speak/dress/act in the way that James says sets them apart, its kind of like a constant message that they are a certain way, and that keeps them apart from the mainstream....I dunno I can't exactly link together what I'm trying to say, lol...

Don't get me wrong, obviously there are powerful, successful, professional black people in media/politics whatever- but I'd imagine it would be irritating when movies or books feel they have to have that one example of "urbanness"....I.E. "the token black guy"....and the use of that is very effectively keeping them apart from everyone else in the movie or book, and in the bigger picture, life.

I personally would give anything and everything for all Jews to stand out and stop assimilating.

There's a difference between fitting in and assimilating and losing all aspects that make you different.

And where do you see women in saris working and going to school? Generally those women are so traditional that they don't.

-Rudey

Wite skin privilige exists, you can't argue that. I am sure many a time it has likely benefit me being white. Does it bother me to be treated based on things like that? Yes it does, and I can't do anything about it directly, though I wish it didn't exist. Perhaps I am intune with observing nonverbal and secondary cues from my chosen fields of study, and can see interractions with others. To be inclusive though, there are many things that benefit me going out into the world everyday (depending on where though). Being young, female, blonde and even white gives me certain advantages. They may not be things like jobs or housing, but smaller things. However what those all have in common is they are things I can't control. My clothing and manner of speech and carriage, plus other factors are interchangable, but your age, gender and skin color are not. TauAlumna, I see what you're talking about with saris, but clothing isn't something you wake up with daily like skin color, though it is a factor one is evaluated by.

I know that in my academic and employment settings I have seen and known women that wear saris, and a whole variety of head and body coverings that (to various religious groups) are traditional. More power to them for being able to balance all those aspects in their life.

"-Rudey
--And if you write longs posts, then so do I"

Write away...at least you are thinking critically.

Also, please do stand by your comments, wasn't my intention to change them, just to offer a view from a vantage point from which I stand.

James, again, I must reject the notion of assimilation for two reasons:

1. It should not be necessary that a group assimilate just to be treated fairly and equally, and this is true (or my opinion) regarding any country or society, this actually indicates even more that this country practices and relies that much more heavily on white skin privilege to establish what is and isn't acceptable.

2. Re: "If you look aht history of other immigrant groups coming into the states, they are hated for a generation or so and then they assimilate adopting the language, dress, and basic cultural patterns of the parent culture.

African american youth Culture, which seems to be a hodgpodge of stuff, hasn't successfully assimilated in language, dress, or basic patterns."

Black Americans have been "hated" in this country for much longer than a generation. I have to say that once again, too many people over simplify a tremndous social problem in this country as well as others that is specific to people with BLACK skin. This has been shown time and time again, over and throughout history. We ARE not regular immigrants to AMerica and never have been. So, comparing our "group" to other "groups" is not effective as we examine this problem.

How does the hate compare with blacks not from this country?

And do you reject their right to hate you? Do you really think it's going to change?

-Rudey

It's not something you see a lot, but I definitely see it a couple times a week......doesn't really matter, my point was that Taualumna said ppl who wear saris and are still accepted, and I'm saying that the garment itself is more socially acceptable in a business/professional environment than sagging jeans.

The people we are talking about who HATE, do so because the people they hate are not like them and anyone not like them physically, they see as inferior..textbook definition of a racist. So, basicaly, regardless of country or origin, if the person or people are Black, then they hate them as well.

As you said, Rudey, there is a point at which someone goes too far. There is nothing I can do about someone who hates me because they have a problem with my natural physical characteristic such as skin color. It's a sickness, just as there is nothing I can do about a schitzophrantic (sp). As long as the laws of this land no longer condone outright harming me because of my difference in skin color, then I'm fine. God will take care of the stubbornness of those who mistreat others becasue they can't accept their differences, both physically and socially.

As long as there are people who have gone from being a hard core racist to someone who advocates equal rights and humane treatment of all people regardless of color ( I have heard plenty testimonies of this, actually) then, yes, I would say change can happen, but I also know that there will always be someone who refuses to change because their hate has consumed them and because they do, in fact, get a sense of satisfaction and pleasure from their being a beneficiary of white skin privilege.

Here's a question:

How much of this 'privledge' is due to race? And how much is due to social class? (there is a strong co-relation between race and class - on occasion I think they confound eachother)