Damn, you called me on it. :( I am just a lying liberal.

In my defense I was using my little sister's bottle where the numbers had all rubbed off.

If you actually agreed with the "Give a man a fish" jazz, you wouldn't agree with spending millions of bucks on drug testing, since drug testing doesn't address the root of the problem, just the symptoms. I really don't think drug testing is going to do anything about the drugs themselves -- it will just get the drug users out of schools. Which won't do much for them OR for anybody else.

And can you back up your statement about "the main issue with starving kids is crackhead parents" with any kind of statistics?

NO, I cannot. but I would assume that the majority of our hunger problems IN THE US are a result of drugs...

I actually think it does get to the root of the problem though. Hear me out... I think that most children begin using drugs while in middle/high school. If they can get through these times w/out using, they have a much better chance of being clean for life. I think most kids are just looking for an excuse to NOT use, and this would provide that excuse...

Ever been a teacher, Rudey?

My wife taught high school for a few years and worked her butt off, about 12 hrs. a day during the week and four or five hours on each weekend day between lesson plans and grading papers, etc.

Her father was on a school board, and her grandfather on the state school board.

The only complaint I ever heard from them about this was when the Federal or State government mandated programs, but gave them no funds to implement them.

If you are lucky and your district is able to pass bond issues, etc., that's not so bad, but when you're in a poor district that votes all of those issues down -- educations suffers.

It makes zero sense to me to punish a school that is below standards (whatever "standards" are) by taking away it's funds. That's counterproductive in the worst way. It just makes the school worse. It also punishes the good students in those schools.

very well said! my mom is a teacher and she works incredibly long hours to guarantee her student's success

Although this is off the subject of the State of the Union address:

I agree that's completely counterproductive to take funding away from schools who aren't up to standards. The State of Florida does exactly that. Jeb rates the schools based on FCAT stores. I hate, hate, hate standardized testing but that's a debate for a different time. Schools that rank as an "F" score have their funding taken away while schools that are ranked higher (ie- "A" and "B") will get more funding. Statistically, the schools that were ranked higher were in upper-middle class neighborhoods while schools with lower rankings are in lower-class neighborhoods. The poorer students aren't getting the funding that's needed to improve their reading and math abilities while the upper-class students are getting more money. It's a vicious cycle. The rich are getting more educated and resources every year while the poor get less every year. Teachers at the "F" schools are spending more time teaching their students how to take the FCAT rather than...well...teaching them. I know this because my Aunt and mother have taught at "F" schools. The system obviously doesn't work; Florida was ranked either #48 or #49 in the Nation in terms education. I'm so glad to be out of the Florida public school system.

Do I need to stab myself in the kidney to know knives can hurt? No I'd rather just assume it will. Now that we're done with the useless banter.

Teacher's unions have made it incredibly difficult to get rid of bad teachers. While there are some teachers who are dedicated to the profession, more and more get in because that was the only thing available to them. Who holds them accountable?

If you create a competitive situation where better schools can be easily identified, students will be able to identify them and head in that direction - assuming their parents are involved.

Not saying that all teachers and systems are like this but MANY of them are.

-Rudey
--Oh hey why don't I make 45K, work a 9 to 5, have incredible job protection, and get an entire summer off because that'd be wonderful.

And how does a school district that has 80% of it's students below poverty level, malnutritioned with large classes attract good teachers? What teacher in their right mind would take a job at a district that is full of students who will underperform on standardized tests, knowing that the schools' funding will be just continue to decrease? Who will teach the mentally impaired if their raises depend on kids performing at a level which is impossible for them to achieve?

Dee

Regarding the kidney...Huh?

Regarding the second, around here that $45K would probably require a Masters and a lot of experience. If fact, I think I'll look that up. I'll let you know if I'm off base.

Teaching is not a 9-5 job. Unless you never give homework or tests and don't do lesson plans.

Our elementary and some middle schools are year-round these days. About the same amount of time off, but not all at once.

I think it's tenure more than unions that make it difficult to get rid of "bad" teachers -- and I will readily admit there are some of those. Thankfully, a lot of school systems have gotten rid of the tenure system.

Finally, there isn't enough money to make me put up with what teachers in some schools do today.

Not everyone needs an education.

-Rudey
--Controversial

I'm not sure if any other county does it but Broward County, FL has something called a "Hazard Bonus". Basically, any teacher willing to teach at a school that is an "F" school in the not-so-good part of town is awarded this bonus upon signing. Not sure of the $ amount but I know of quite a few people who took up Broward County's offer.

Where in the hell do teachers work 9 to 5?

The ones at my high school, at least, worked from 6 or 7 in the morning until 4 or 5 without even taking into account grading papers or working on lesson plans. People who say that teachers are paid adequately because they get summers "off" (which is not entirely the truth) don't take into the account that no teacher works an 8-hour day. I would guess that for many of them, 12 hours is a minimum.

A lot of the teachers at my school had two jobs or took on extra responsibility at the school (coaching track, working as the night school principal) in order to make enough to support their families -- and that doesn't even take summer jobs into account.

These days you don't go into teaching unless you love it because it's a job that is underpaid, overworked, extremely frustrating and possibly dangerous.

As for standardized tests, I don't agree that they're useless -- there was a girl in Louisiana, I think, who was valedictorian of her class yet could not pass the state's exam for minimum competency in math, yet her math teachers were giving her A's anyway. That kind of thing needs to be caught so the problems can be addressed and fixed. But I'm in complete agreement that test results should not dictate funding. You cannot expect an "inner city" Chicago school to perform at the same level as New Trier. That's effin' ridiculous.

I just read Class Struggle: What's Wrong (and Right) with America's Best Public High Schools and it addressed a lot of these issues. Its main focus was how to take programs that have succeeded at places like New Trier, Scarsdale, Greeley, La Jolla, Highland Park and their ilk, and put them in place in schools that perform lower on tests. I think some of the solutions are overly simplistic and fail to address the fact that usually schools that perform lower have totally different problems and issues than schools that perform higher, but it's an interesting read even so.

The comment about having to stab myself to know what it feels like is like you saying I should be a teacher to know what goes on.

I don't know how many schools are year-round but I don't think it's the majority. Do you know? I know for sure several really large states (States that matter...not big square ones in the middle of nowhere) do not have year-round. So that's a 2-3 month vacation combined.

Maybe it's not 45K where you live because the cost of living is lower. I'm sure a banker would get paid less in Colorado. Here is a sampling of salaries from 1995 in Chicago with low costs of living:

Average Salary for Various Occupations
(Including benefits. Figures for 1995.)

Illinois Teachers
Average salary without benefits $36,874
Salary adjusted for hours worked 56,948
Adjusted salary plus benefits 68,338
Accounting
Accountant, small firm 36,500
Accountant, Big Six firm 38,625
Senior auditor 42,500
Senior tax accountant 55,300
Architecture
Architect 35,000
Architect, principal/partner 50,000
Engineering
Civil engineer 62,000
Electrical engineer 65,876
Mechanical engineer 65,160
Financial Services
Actuary 36,914
Loan officer, mortgage 54,600
Loan officer, commercial 71,000
Health Care
Registered nurse 39,800
Licensed physical therapist 45,400
Information Services
Systems analyst 44,026
Database specialist 45,193
Software engineer 54,470
Hardware engineer 54,704
Manufacturing
Foreman 40,300
Purchasing agent 52,800
Warehouse manager 53,600
Director of engineering 74,400
Media
Newspaper reporter 24,127
TV news reporter 30,400
Magazine senior editor 41,900
Source: Justin Martin, "How Does Your Pay Really Stack Up?" Fortune, June 26, 1995, pp. 82-86.

When it comes to those lesson plans, a lot of it follows books, a lot is reused from year to year. When it comes to exams, if it really takes you a million hours to grade simple exams then you shouldn't be a teacher in my opinion. Many exams were actually multiple choice and graded easily with scantron machines.

Too bad teachers are ruined by a few bad apples. Tenure usually comes as a result of unions that fight for them so I'm not sure why you said it's tenure and not unions. Oh and hey, Sam Peltzman (brilliant professor from Chicago) did a state-by-state study "of the period of greatest decline in student test scores, 1972 - 1981, and found that the decline in student performance was deepest in those states whose legislatures were most responsive to teachers unions and in which the American Federation of Teachers scored its earliest success". In the 1980s, Peltzman found "an unambiguously negative association of union growth and school performance."

-Rudey

Here a first-year teacher's salary wouldn't exceed $30K, and salaries top out around $60K -- like you said, those are for teachers with at least a masters and a good 25-30 years of experience.

I just looked around for the average teacher salary in Wisconsin and it looks like it's just shy of 40K. National average is just short of $45K, though obviously it depends on the state. California is first, I think, with around $54K as an average. The lower ranking states average around $30K.

Don't forget the great benefits. They tend to boost that just a tad bit.

-Rudey

I just took a quick look on the web, and a beginning teacher in Colorado (state wide average) is just above $30K. The average teachers salary in Colorado is $40K and change. Colorado ranks 25th in the nation in teachers pay.

Here's a link to an article in the Denver Business Journal which points out a few additional problems caused by low teachers pay.

My favorite thought from it is that (roughly quoted) "teachers don't teach for the money, but they leave for the lack of it."

http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver...y5.html?page=1

Point taken. Benefits for teachers here -- insurance, retirement are pretty good.

But other jobs can say the same thing.

My friend is a teacher. She said the salary itself isn't great. The benefits, retirement package, and summers off make up for the salary. She has nice students in a good school. She has a problem with the new department of education, but that is a local issue.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. Teacher retirement, insurance, holiday and vacation benefits are top-notch. But, many companies offer that to their employees after they've worked there for a little while. I don't think most people go into teaching for the benefits...at least I hope not.

Like Enron.

-Rudey

A few years ago, NYC was looking for teachers. Many people just out of college signed up. Many people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s signed up also including someone I know. He said the great benefits and retirement package was one of the reasons. A lot of the people he met in the program said that was a big reason. He also wanted to make a difference in the lives of children. :)

http://www.ncei.com/WSJ-12898.htm

-Rudey

I am thinking of a specific program in NYC which resulted in thousands of older teachers retiring and new people being hired to fill their spots. I think it was in 1998, 1999, or 2000. Anyway, many of the younger new hires quit after a few months because they didn't realize how difficult teaching in NYC would be.

ETA: Maybe it was a part of a national program, but I am not certain.

A lot of those new teachers didn't exactly quit. The city's economic situation helped out.

-Rudey

No, they quit. I know that they downsized the Board/Department of Education, but some of the teachers hired through this program quit either before the school year ended or they didn't return the following year.

What is the basis of your opinion? Why do you assume the majority of hunger in this country is related to a drug problem? Why do you think that most kids are just looking for a reason not to do drugs? Why do you think that if a kid doesn't try drugs in middle school, they're pretty much set for life?


In my own life experiences I have seen no evidence to support your ideas, but I realize that we all have our different experiences. So, why do you think this way?

rudey, you love to blast your mouth off about things you just don't understand

i'm a teacher. i have my masters--which i had to take out $20000 in loans for (in addition to my undergrad loans), and is REQUIRED by the state to get within 5 years of getting a job. my masters isn't paid for, like many companies.

i don't work 9-5. i work until 11pm sometimes and definitely over the weekends. i spend almost $2000 of my own money on my classroom every year. which doesn't get reimbursed. have you ever had to buy pencils or paper for your office if you run out? we do. and it's not little things--chart paper is $20 each and i go through about a dozen a year. not reimbursed.

i don't get paid for the summers. my "time off", which is well deserved, is unpaid. i am a 9 month employee. i have to work 2 jobs over the summer to make ends meet. i COULD have the summer off, but then i wouldn't be able to live. lesson plans do NOT come right from a book. if i used book plans, i would be fired. they are a good starting point and can be used sometimes, but lesson plans have to be way more elaborate.

i can get fired in an instant with no reason. hence why tenure is important. if a parent is powerful and has a big mouth, he/she can get you fired, even if you did nothing wrong. i've seen it happen. then try to find another job after being fired from a teaching job--you can't because there's a stigma.

teaching jobs on long island are IMPOSSIBLE to come by. you have to know someone to get in, but still have to go through a massive interview process which often leads nowhere. some of my friends still have teaching assistant positions 4 years out of college.

i have to deal with parents constantly. my prep is spent on the phone or photocopying. my lunch is spent in my class doing things. i never sit down.

i make $48k, with 4 years of experience and a masters degree. that's NOT a lot of money. a small house in a not-so-great area goes for $400k. i will NEVER be able to afford a house on my salary alone.

i don't know who thinks $50k is a lot of money. it's a good amount, but nothing to raise a family on.

i LOVE my job. i'm NOT complaining. but PLEASE don't talk about things you don't know about first hand.

come to ny and you are welcome to observe my class for a day. i guarantee you'll change your tune.

(granted--i KNOW there are some bad teachers. not everyone is good)

-Rudey
--I guess I just don't understand

no, you clearly don't

i refuse to refute your "points" because it is pointless. and what "insults" are you referring to?

Telling me I blast my mouth off about things I don't understand is insulting. I could wrap you with points and statistics and you wouldn't care - why? Because you're a teacher. Frankly, I would do the same if I were you.

I don't claim all teachers are bad. I don't claim all teachers, or you, have it easy. But I do claim there are many bad teachers who do have it easy and unions that protect them. I also claim the more powerful the union, the worse off the kids are.

Personally I think you should look around you more and see you're not bad off. I wouldn't trade my problems for anyone else's and I don't think you would either.

-Rudey
--But you can claim everything I say is poppycock.

Also -- I forgot to ask this earlier -- where in the world did you go to high school, Rudey, where most teachers used scantron tests?

I think I only took scantron tests in one subject ever and that was science. And even then the majority of the teachers included a written section. In math they always wanted to see your work in order to get full credit. I had one math teacher who literally went through every single problem on every single assignment for each student in her 3 calc and 3 geometry classes to make sure they showed every step. In English and the social sciences teststhere was always an essay portion, most of the time a substantial one. Every history class I ever took required at least one ten-page paper a semester. English and foreign language classes above second year always had essays; some of them required monthly or even short weekly essays. Even science classes required essays for honors credit, and even if you didn't do the essay there was lab work.

I can see how your view of teachers would be a little warped if you went to a high school where scantron tests made up the majority of the work you did . . .

Plus even the worst teachers at my school changed their curriculum from year to year. My little sister's taking many of the same classes that I did in high school and most of them have at least one unit that's drastically different from anything that I did.

One of the top 5 public schools in the country. I also took 11 AP classes so don't think I got a crap education.

There were also lots of written sections but generally you know what to look for when you're correcting those things. It's not like oh hey let me read this essay and see if i like it, it's hey let me see if he mentions these three events.

My view on teachers is one based on a hell of a lot of numbers I just showed you and what I go out and read. I had good teachers and bad ones and none defined all teachers.

-Rudey
--If you rub clear chapstick along the black marks on the side of the scantron sheet, the machine can't mark it wrong I hear.

to keep the same exact lesson plan every year would defeat the process of learning; which, by definition, must always be updated

Seriously dude, do you have a book you pull these things from?

-Rudey

$50,000 isn't a lot...for NYC. I've known people who were paid $100K in the city (still, not much for the city), and moving to the South or Midwest resulted in a 50% pay cut...and guess what? They're able to make ends meet! What about in Mississippi, where the per capita income is somewhere in the high teens? 50K is almost wealthy in some areas. Let's not forget--the cost of living, and resultant income, is much higher in NYC than in most other areas of the country.

In my hometown, which has a cost of living 50% lower than that of NYC, teachers start out at 50K, and do quite well...especially when there are two teachers in a family. Two teachers living in a gulf-front house is not uncommon.

I may live here, but I totally admit that NYC is not the center of the world.

The median income in NYC is 39,285 and the mean is 59,500. The mean takes into account all the outliers in the finance industry that make 7 figures. Of course this value is less in the outer boroughs where real NY'ers are from - not the ones visiting and wanting to brag that they lived in NYC.

-Rudey

So, NYC public school teachers still make more than the median income? Not every metropolitan area can say that.

Yes, you're right, not every city can say that. There are states in the South where teachers make much less than that.

-Rudey
--And no you're wrong about contributing to the economy as much as the next guy actually but let's not flirt all night long.

How did this thread turn into the state of teachers instead of the state of the union?

I believe the children are the future.

Teach them well and let them lead the way.