Oh, yeah. My fiance and I had our first pre-marital counseling session Saturday afternoon. Of course, we went over this very same thing with the pastor. All I have to say is that I behaved myself. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

AKAtude, you did WHAT? Behaved? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif!

Shalom AKAtude!

sit boo boo...good wife http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif gotta do what you gotta do http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif...till after the wedding...hee hee...then he'll find out who's house it is... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif that's why this one ain't no where near married yet cause i can't even fake like i don't know what the deal is... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 23, 2001).]

For those of you who believe that the husband is the head of the household, what does that mean? What is he head of? Does he make the final decisions of the household? Does his vote count more than the wife's or as a tie breaker in a disagreement? Does he make the "big" decisions, concerning money, where to live, etc.? What happens if he makes a decision that has a negative effect on him and/or the wife/family--do you keep quiet or voice an opinion? What do you do when he wanders away from his Christian walk and you (the wife) stay on yours? Do you still view him as the head and follow his decision/lead?

I'm curious to know what exactly we're speaking of when we use these terms...

Not to be technically correct, but I thought the name was UBU (pronounced OOH BOO), the now deceaced dog of TV producer Gary David Goldberg.

So it's actually "Sit Ubu, sit...good wife" *sound of a woman's voice saying "Yes, dear"*

ROTFLMNBAO I am having too much fun up in heah.

Match Game '73

good question discogoddess...inquiring minds want to know...especially from the gentlemen... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 23, 2001).]

my bad...i just thought i'd make the name more endearing...but UBU it is...sit ubu...good wife... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Hello everyone,
I just couldn't resist...I have sat back and read long enough...I am just itching to add my $19.08 worth. So here goes........ First of all...let me say that I agree with TickledPink and Shalom2u.
I think that obeying and submitting is a process that requires growth and maturation as a Christian. As a Christian( and I have grown over the years) I know that God will not lead me down the wrong path ( you must not only know Christ, you must TRUST him as well). The word OBEY was a part of our marital vows. I, too, believe that my husband is the head of the household. I know that he loves me just as he loves himself. I know that if someone entered our home with the thought of taking the life of someone in this house that my husband would sacrifice his life because he loves me so much that he is willing to die for me (and thats powerful). When there are decisions to be made (major&minor) We discuss them. My husband would never make a decision without first thinking it over and because we became one when we said our vows , that includes listening and taking to heart what I have to say.To do otherwise, and make a decision without hearing me would be demeaning to me...and a true man of Christ would not do that because then it would be demeaning to himself as well...because again he must love his wife just as he loves himself. I am not saying that we always agree with each other ..but we always hear and respect the differing opinions.
I think "obey" is taken out of context and is turned into a "Master"(husband)..."Servant"(wife)....type situation when you have a husband who has not grown spiritually.........and is, therefore, acting off of a lack of knowledge..in other words....."he don't know no betta"..but now ask yourself and be honest when you answer " was he that way when you met.....dated....became engaged...and then..married him?
I'm not saying that I have always thought this way..heck...I never thought that I would be one who would "OBEY" any MAN..but I have grown spiritually and I refuse to let the opinions of others stand in my way of doing..."what thus sayeth(SP) the Lord"...because then I would be willing to have my "blessings blocked".

Now..Question for Mandingo Nupe...are you saying that a woman who chooses to "obey" her husband is not a strong woman? If so....I have to disagree with you on that. But let me know....
Having said all of that ..I'm OUT!!!!!!

------------------
#8 Serious Matter
Gamma Nu Omega
Spr2K

****Shalom2U wrote a long post Discogoddes***

For me and my household, it means that my husband is the Leader, yes, the CEO of our little unit---and that is a sash and crown I am happy to take off and let him wear (longgg story and testimony so I won't go there). Although he makes the final decisions for our household when it effects us as a whole, he doesn't make personal decisions for my welfare and well being, even though I probably should have gotten his opinion on a certain hairdo/cut that I ended up getting and looking like Moe from the 3-Stooges! And no, his vote doesn't count more then mine (oh he wish he did have it like that cause he'd have a 61" HDTV sitting up in our little den right now).

When it comes to "big" decisions, he learned the HARD way to not only pray and seek GOD'S face for direction, but to ask me if GOD has spoken anything to my heart concerning that "big" decision. See, he learned the HARD way that Leadership is not Dictatorship and when it comes to "big" decisions, it is wise to "touch and agree" as the WORD directs us to do. Yes, there has been a few times where brotha-man with his big ol'man self went and made a decision that not only had negative effects, but the reprecussion (sp) and residue from his decision seem to last forever and ever and ever (and no amen)---did I keep quiet---HECK NO, but after throwing it up in his face and running it in the ground, the LORD reminded me to stop the nagging, get behind him and hold the brotha-man up!

In the one time brotha-man not only wandered, but gallopped as he did, I just held on to my LORD's hand, agreed with the LORD that my salvation was my salvation, and that I would be held accountable for my walk and how I conducted myself through the storm---Shalom2U put the whole armour on, kept her head held up high and stayed the course all the while declaring the WORD over brotha-man's position as Leader over his household. Yes, I had to speak to the North, the South, the East and the West regarding my husband, his headship and his honor before the LORD.

We are still learning, after twelve years, yes, we are still learning. My husband still makes mistakes in his position as Leader, yet we honor the WORD and know that ultimately, if we continue to honor the WORD's way over the World's way, we will see and experience marriage like only the LORD can bless. For me, it hasn't been easy giving up my old nature of running thangs, yet I'm finding out daily that as I submit, surrender and respect my husband, he will not take it to the "Kizzie" role, rather, he smiles and with love in his eyes, thanks me for having his back---and I've found that when he reverts back to "Cave-man", I simply give him my look, go to my room and talk to my Heavenly Father because HE knows how to talk to my husband---even in his sleep! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Speaking of submitting, let me get off GC cause brotha-man looking at his watch and checking me on the computer (he needs to use it before we go to bed)... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif
Shalom Discogoddes~

thats cool...but not everyone has it like that...if you are fortunate enough to have a man in your life like that...good for you http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif but...it is not always like that and some men take "obey" out of context...so i would hope that if women choose to leave that in their vows...there is a clear understanding of the original context of the word...and the fact that "obey" requires mutual obedience and respect...and that a womans opinion in family decisions is just as valid as her husbands...whether she is a "house wife" or has a full-time career...her place is BESIDE her husband...not in the general court...
before mandingnupe answers...in response to your question to him...let me say this...if a woman chooses to "obey" her husband and is led down the wrong path due to her lack of take charge initiative when need be...that results in a sad situation...i would just hope that a woman that has it in her mind to obey her husband is not doing so to get or keep a man...and as i said before is doing so with the full understanding that if she puts her foot down on an issue...her husband must equally accept her decision as he would expect her to accept his...i believe there is also a passage about being UNEQUALLY yoked...keep that in mind...balance is key to everything...including marriage...

[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 24, 2001).]

Thanks, Eclipse.....You are right!! I will ask the Lord to help me on this!!! You had some enlightening insight....I do agree w/you!! But that is going to be hard.



------------------
sspearls

AmerAKAs Most Wanted, I want to say that you have successfully made my point on the whole submit/obey thing. These "wimmens" were tryin' to hang a brother over heah. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif All over a misunderstanding of terms.

Shalom, I loved your testimony, and was blessed by it. I am going to print out a copy of this thread and show it to my friend whom I am courting, and hopefully this will shed new light on an old topic.

Keep on postin'

Rain Man

It's official, Shalom2U, we ARE married to the same husband!! ha ha ha

Girl you betta preach!! ((Sister Eclipse shouting from the 3 pew on the left))


[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 24, 2001).]

It's official, Shalom2U, we ARE married to the same husband!! ha ha ha

[QUOTE} When it comes to "big" decisions, he learned the HARD way to not only pray and seek GOD'S face for direction, but to ask me if GOD has spoken anything to my heart concerning that "big" decision. See, he learned the HARD way that Leadership is not Dictatorship and when it comes to "big" decisions, it is wise to "touch and agree" as the WORD directs us to do. Yes, there has been a few times where brotha-man with his big ol'man self went and made a decision that not only had negative effects, but the reprecussion (sp) and residue from his decision seem to last forever and ever and ever (and no amen)---did I keep quiet---HECK NO, but after throwing it up in his face and running it in the ground, the LORD reminded me to stop the nagging, get behind him and hold the brotha-man up!

In the one time brotha-man not only wandered, but gallopped as he did, I just held on to my LORD's hand, agreed with the LORD that my salvation was my salvation, and that I would be held accountable for my walk and how I conducted myself through the storm---Shalom2U put the whole armour on, kept her head held up high and stayed the course all the while declaring the WORD over brotha-man's position as Leader over his household. Yes, I had to speak to the North, the South, the East and the West regarding my husband, his headship and his honor before the LORD.

We are still learning, after twelve years, yes, we are still learning. My husband still makes mistakes in his position as Leader, yet we honor the WORD and know that ultimately, if we continue to honor the WORD's way over the World's way, we will see and experience marriage like only the LORD can bless. For me, it hasn't been easy giving up my old nature of running thangs, yet I'm finding out daily that as I submit, surrender and respect my husband, he will not take it to the "Kizzie" role, rather, he smiles and with love in his eyes, thanks me for having his back---and I've found that when he reverts back to "Cave-man", I simply give him my look, go to my room and talk to my Heavenly Father because HE knows how to talk to my husband---even in his sleep! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[/QUOTE]

Girl you betta preach!! ((Sister Eclipse shouting from the 3rd pew on the left))

i believe that verse is a bit deeper than believers being unequally yoked with unbelievers...belief in what exactly? simply god...or the equality of man and woman also...along with the belief that a womans place in the home is no more beneath a mans place than the man is beneath the woman...i still would have to be cautious when throwing even that scripture out there to justify having a womans place be anything other than horizontally and verticaly aligned with a mans place...


[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 24, 2001).]

OK OK I could not resist any longer! People let us get a perspective. The Bible is a guide to live life by. The guide says to "obey" one's husband. However, the bible is clear that "A Man who has a wife is truly blessed in the Lord". In order for a woman to obey her husban a husband must find a blessing in the wife. It is the LORD's WILL that those who are seperate become one in the union! So if one get's married they are now one entity! If that is true then a woman must obey a will of a man as the man must obey the will of his woman because they are one entity! A house divided cannot stand. The instution of marriage was put in place to prevent us from sinning. However WE all come short of that. The problem with the bible is that people pick out certain things that work for them and ignore the whole text. You must read it as a complete story!

Sphinxpoet
"If ya smell what the Sphinxpoet is cooking"

VICTORIASECRET:

You seem to be adamant in waging some sort of battle with those who can accept the concept of "biblical" obedience. I detect just a slight bit of bitterness against men (maybe for a valid reason). I find it amusing that it is such a shock to you that women can obey the word of God and find decent men to lead a fruitful life together with. When two people are not looking to find offense all the time or can see the relevance of some tradition in maintaining a happy home, they can indeed be happy.

To suggest that the King James Version has some transliteral errors is not enough to nullify the Truth of the Word. I own several tranlations down to the most exact from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic versions. While words and phrases are altered and updated, thematically, there is virtually little difference. So, I submit to you, your problem with the Bible and how it relates to women and relationships is that it doesn't jibe with your views of being that stereotypical "strong, independent, Black Woman" who doesn't need a man or relationship to validate her. I think many women have posted that that necessarily isn't the case and that a good man is not the enemy.

Could you help me understand what you mean by this statement?

Shalom sphinxpoet~

I remember in the Bible I do not have one in front of me in the Acts of the Apostles one of the apostles made mention to the fact that the marriage was created to that a man could have one woman and a woman could have one man because the Hebrews could not understand it was God's will for us to be committed to the Spirit and not the flesh. In plain english he was saying that we needed marriage to stop having wild sex and to be committed to one person.

Hope it helps

Sphinxpoet
Give me time and tommorow I will look up the verse and Apostle.

I will honor you and give you time...however, I think you are refering to 1Corinthians 7:1-9? If you are, and this is the Book/Chapter/verses, then this decussion is regarding Marriage and Celibacy. *Marriage was looked upon as being a "step down" from celibacy/singleness because one couldn't spend the necessary time becoming whole and holy instruments for the LORD due to the need to nurture and care for his/her spouse. In fact, Paul had to let the people of Corinth know that marriage was not to be viewed as inferior to singleness in any way.

If that wasn't the Book/Chapter/verses, I apologize for posting this response.

Shalom Sphnixpoet~

***That's interesting...how some people look at singleness as being inferior in our day/society...now that's a good topic/thread for discussion***

VctoriasSecrt,
You are right about believers not being unequally yoked to unbelievers. A lot of the concerns that a lot of Christian women have with this passage can be minimized (not done away with altogether--we're all still human!) with the right man. One who truly understands his role in the relationship and takes his calling as head of the household seriously. I believe that if you don't trust your mate to have your best interest at heart it says as much about you as him. My husband and I have a running joke. When I call him a "doo-doo head" or something like that, his response is always "So what does that make you? You married me!" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

...once again...you are off the mark completely...i will just leave it at that...why have you resorted to attacking my personal character when all i have done is speak from a scholarly standpoint...barring PERSONAL opinion...from the standpoint of a male or female...i do pray that one day i am fortunate enough to meet my equal in the form of a man...i'm a undergraduate student two steps out of my mothers womb and too YOUNG...not too independent...to be married...i love men...have no problem with the male presence in the home...nor do i essentially have a problem with using the bible as a GUIDE for life...your remarks indicate that you have a problem with a woman being a valid, authoritative, interpretive source of biblical truths...if i am wrong...correct me...as a women needs to be put in her place... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 25, 2001).]

Peter's 1st Epistle(sp) chapters 1 to 5. There you will find the answers to many of these debates.

Sphinxpoet

Thanks Sphinxpoet, 1Peter 3:1 & 3:5 as well as Titus 2:5 were already given as Biblical references and were used in postings (by examples) by Tickledpink, SWEETAKA, Eclipse, toocute and Doggy Style82.

My fine Brotherfriend, I'm waiting on the Book/Chapter/verse you promised me yesterday... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif.

Shalom Sphinxpoet~

what is there to debate exactly?...but thanks for the reference...i am sure we could ALL benefit from it somehow...


[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 25, 2001).]

There are too many posts for me to read. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gifWithin that text is says a woman be an example to her man on even when he is led astray. This is the reason that the word obey was put in there so that a woman could be an example of how a man should obey the word of the Lord. Throughout the text Peter makes reference to the weakeness of a man in flesh. The instution of marriage was created to counteract these(as per my interpatation of the text).

I will be back with more information - Sphinxpoet
*Grabbing my bible - Glad I did not major in Divinity Studies* http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Shalom

I think the world is in trouble because people DON'T know their vows, let alone keep them. As for submitting, that's a personal thing. Some people(men included) say they wont submit in order to save face; but privately they do-and for good reason. The person that submits believes in the judgement of their spouse, and thus submits. Because it's not popular doesn't mean it's not right. If it was all that bad a concept, why then are the divorce rates higher today than in the past?

why does a man label a woman feminist when her views are contrary to his?...hmmmmn...political agendas...that is really a bit deep since the subject is about whether or not to keep "obey" in the marriage vows...i will let this rest...we are at an impass...

Sorry if you read it that way, but I did not attack your personal character in any way. I also do not have a problem with a woman being a valid, authoritative, interpretive source of Biblical truths (is this what you claim to be?) I have pointed out how Shalom and others have correctly interpreted the passage. My only problem is with ANYONE, male or female, who redefines the Bible to fit their individual political goals. In this way, they become their own personal god and relegate The Word to secondary status to their secular humanism.

I will correct you on this also. I never even intimated that a woman needs to be "put or kept in her place". The question revolved around the accurate rendering of a theological question. You view my posts in a classic feminist defensive posture. Because I disagree does not make it a personal attack. Because I disagree does not mean that I want to disenfranchise women. Because I point out how you would like to re-word phrases of the bible that offend your feminist sensibilities does not mean that women are incapable of interpreting the Bible correctly.

Lastly, I would not attack you personally over minor philosophical disagreements. It aint that deep. Peace.

What is a classic feminist? I can't figure out what he's trying to say, but it did sound like an epithet to me.

I would simply use Hopeful's method to resolve the wedding vows issue. We are to submit ourselves to each other. So, we can both obey God and each other.

Shalom, I love to read your posts. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I wholeheartedly agree. While I am not even in a relationship with another man, your posts and experiences in marriage have been such a blessing to my spirit. Lately I have strayed in my walk with God but your posts have been uplifting and when you said that you prayed for us, it really brings tears to my eyes. I thank God for you as a person and as a Child of God.

tickledpink & CrimsonTide4,

While it would seem appropriate to say "Thank you", I can not because I need to be thanking BOTH of your Fine, Wonderful Organizations for allowing a sisterfriend as myself to come here, post as I do, be treated not only with respect, but be given love that I can't express because a lot of folks would think I've gone NUTS if I said the LORD has blessed me with a family that I can't see or touch directly...A family that encourages me, allows me to say some DUM stuff (I know I'm not like AKATUDE or MaMaBuddha when it comes to having a witty personality)...but you all let me try, and no one here has EVER said, "Oh there go that JESUS-FREAK Shalom2U with all her self-righteous mumbo-jumbo"...instead, I've only been given the utmost respect that a non-BGLO person could receive!

I am the BLESSED ONE! I have a Cyber-family of sistahs who are Movers and Shakers, Trailblazers, Uplifters, Community Servers...just simple put...the BEST that GOD has created! (And they don't mind telling folks like it T-I-is).

No, I thank you for blessing me! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shalom Everybody~

SF, Shalom2U...
I don't think ANYONE, would say that...for fear of having lightning to "STRIKE THEM"....LOL

Seriously,
I don't think you are a "Jesus-Freak" at all! I'm a Jesus-Freak, but we (you and I ) are not on that same Jesus-Freak level....One day, HOPEFULLY, I will be closer than I am now....

I think you bring a certain calmness in the midst of the storm...you know it can get rocky, up in here, up in here...So, it's good to have that balance when we NEED IT.

Merci Beaucoup! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy.gif

Is this going to turn into an "I love Shalom" thread? Do I need to start another one?? *smile* I was just reading another one of your posts and you could literally FEEL the love of God oozing out of your words so I had to come and give my 2 cents here. Thank you for the peace/Shalom that you bring to this site!! Love ya!

Uh, uh,....I'm not into all that Camp-fire, group-huggie stuff SO BACK THE HELL UP! (That's for all the folks who think I'm so sugary sweet). ***Ya'll ruining my Mean Image...I'm leaving GC until I know it's safe to come back in and get my butt kicked just like everybody else! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif

No, seriously...all phoney Shalom2U jokes aside, I LOVE YOU ALL and I BLESS MY LORD FOR MAKING MENTION OF EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU...Ya'll some ANNOITED Women of GOD up in here...Look at our JESUS! (now you know the enemy gonna try to drop some drama in here because too many of us are being blessed by one another...Ideal08, Discogoddes, Eclipse, CrimsonTide4, tickledpink, AKAMonet, you know you've been lifting sisters up lately...don't be taken off guard if he, (the enemy), tries to come in with some mess at work or home. Just remember this, the same GOD who you speak of to encourage us, will be the SAME GOD to see you through)!

Shalom Everybody~

***Oh, a disclaimer, "hell" is not a word of profanity. It is a place of eternal destiny for satan and his cohorts...just want to clarify as not to cause anyone to stumble because of my usage of the word. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

I agree with my bruh dirtymike1906!!!!!!!

I agree with the majority of responses--that the man should be head of household, but in no way some sort of dictator over the wife. The union should be a partnership of best friends. What I am worried about, however, is that the concept of marriage seems to be growing obsolete. I don't know about everyone else, but most of my friends have been abandoned and devastated by the so-called best friend they intended to spend the rest of their life with and help raise their children. Seemingly, more and more, everybody has been reduced to somebody's "Baby's Mama" or "Baby's Daddy" among a smorgasbord of half and step-children with a wide variety of last names. Everyone seems disposable now because they left hair in the sink yesterday morning or forgot to take the trash out last night. Is anybody happily married?

ttt for SummerChild and others who want to read. I learned a lot from it almost 3 years ago when the discussion first began. :)