Whoa, soror! TMI!!!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif



[This message has been edited by Discogoddess (edited March 30, 2001).]

Soror AKA_Monet:

I agree with some of what you said, but I have to disagree that some sorors have beef with our sorority being affiliated with a gay men's fraternity. I have problems with Alpha Kappa Alpha being associated with ANY entity, through the duplication of our symbols, rituals and traditions. I'm not upset because these brothers are gay; I'm upset with ANYONE who would knowingly appropriate our symbols. And that was my understanding of the fraternity in question, because of the email message I addressed in a previous post.

The fact that we live in a Judeo-Christian society hasn't stopped some of the many changes we've seen in our sorority and black greekdom, so to me, we shouldn't try to be all high, mighty and righteous about the homosexuality aspect of this debate. Rather, we should stick to the real issue of respect: for others' hard work and the deep meaning they assign to the symbols and traditions which define their sorority/fraternity experience.

Whatever happened to the RAINBOW? That would seem more logical to use, wouldn't it?
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DeltaBro1-You stated in your letter that you wonder if we (the members of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated) would have a problem if you were an organization of white men. Hell yes, we would! I personally don’t care that your organization is comprised of African-American men. You all could be black, white, blue, green, male, female, gay, lesbian, animal or mineral-it would not matter to me. What matters to me is that your organization has regrettably chosen symbols long used by my beloved organization which are very dear to me and my sorors. I agree with my Soror Ideal08, let’s just keep it real. There are just too many similarities between the symbols that your organization chose in 1985 and the ones that my organization has held dear since the early 1900s. This is no coincidence. Could you all not come up with one original idea-other than being for the benefit of gay African-American men. I looked at your shield and I was horrified. It appears that you all have basically copied every identifying symbol regarding your organization from other organizations, mainly Alpha Kappa Alpha. You stated in your letter that you are appalled by the alleged KOSIS, Inc.’s blatant disrespect for Alpha Kappa Alpha and her traditions. Well, I am appalled by your organization’s blatant disrespect for my beloved sorority. You stated further in your letter that the sole purpose of emails from my sorors is to take your organization to task for its very existence. I have no problem whatsoever with the existence of your organization. I do, however, have a problem with your blatant disrespect for my organization which has been exhibited by your organization’s pilfering of the symbols of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. My heart is loyal and my heart is true to Alpha Kappa Alpha which is why I find your use of so many of our symbols to be very disrespectful and for that I most certainly will “take you to task”.

Yes, the topic at hand is another organization incorporating our symbols sincere and rare. Yes, you are correct and I agree with you.

But are you really going to believe that every one of our Sorors are that open minded as you are?

Yes, changes have been made in a society that has historically oppessed the liberation of Afrikan minds.

But do you really believe that we are finished in this fight against oppression and this fight for our sovereign human rights? Of course not. As far as being me being pious, I stand for some basic truths that I hold self-evident, that all men are created equal that they should pursue life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness. Whereas, most folks pursue life and happiness but do not understand what liberation means. Then again, are we truly free?

The fact is, the topic at hand is really these little brothers and sisters groups that we have which I understand is traditional at numerous colleges and maybe some graduate chapters. I have somewhat of an issue with utilization of our symbols in that aspect. But that is just me.

What I do not understand from you is why would you think I want to be "high and mighty" when we are the ones who are to be the leaders in the up and coming society? Who shall LEAD???

Just one question- Why sample?

[This message has been edited by Ania (edited March 30, 2001).]

Clearly I am hoping there would be no problem with this fraternity if they had used different symbols, but they didn't. For me and my love of AKA I realize the meaning this symbols mean to me and my organization.

This fraternity using symbols does not bother me in the least because they will never (or should want to) have the same connection that I do to them. It is a matter of understanding, yes its out of order to take so much from AKA, but what my twenty pearls mean to me no fraternity can duplicate http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Another fact is would we be upset if another country took the United States flag to represent itself?

And those of you who don't care about the USA, tell that to our servicemen and women that can't tell and not ask...

Dear ladies, I have read all of your responses and taken your words to heart. I certainly feel your frustration and your anger. I do understand that your issue is not with the sexual orientation of my fraternity or its members (for some of you), but with the perceived similarity between a few of our symbols. I am not trying to make this into such a discussion, since I am very comfortable with who I am and have no need to discuss/debate it. I am a bit perplexed, because in my capacity as Executive Director, I have had the pleasure of speaking to your Supreme Basileus, Norma White, with the office of the Executive Director, Betty James and with various other staff members of the Headquarters, all of whom have always been gracious, kind and cooperative. I have often sought their help many times on procedural and organizational matters, always with positive results. I have helped your national office and the national office of Delta Sigma Theta, Inc., identify the corporate names of the men who imitate each respective organization. At no time, has the national office of Alpha Kappa Alpha expressed any displeasure with Delta Phi Upsilon or its symbols. I believe that is because as older, wiser women, they realize that being in an organization is not all about the external manifestations. It is not about wearing para, it's not about displaying symbols. The ivy and the pearl have a specific and unique meaning to AKA which is absolutely different from the meaning to Delta Phi Upsilon. If you and I were to look at these symbols, they would invoke totally different emotions for each of us. Ladies, it is not about the ivy, it is about what the ivy means... to you as an AKA... to me as a Delta. There are certain aspects like the founding date that did originate with a desire to imitate AKA. When we were founded, the leadership at the time, in an effort to mimic AKA, did cause certain events to occur on certain dates. In later years, certain members realized that the organization had the potential to positively affect the lives of gay men of color, and a movement began to implement a change. That change included a new name, shield, motto, etc., etc. etc. As we grew, we did still look to AKA as a source of information and inspiration. After 16 years of existence, we are finally at the point where every procedural endeavor is original. I have sat down and compared our shield to yours. Yes, they do share certain elements, but overall, the design is sufficiently different to pass copyright. We have not infringed on your trademark, as AKA_Monet states. And as far as anyone confusing the two symbols, well, if someone can't look at the two and see different letters, one with five stars, one without, one with a book/torch, one without, different greek phrases, then that person is either blind or stupid. Further, our organizations serve two completely different communities. Delta Phi Upsilon works solely in the GAY community and has no interest in serving the more mainstream black community, hence the "service to OUR kind" motto. To address AKA2D '91 who said "whatever happened to the RAINBOW?" the rainbow flag/symbol is used predominantly by caucasian organizations. Now, while certain traditions cherished by Delta cannot and will not change, such as the founding date, the ivy, the pearl, the motto and the shield, I assure you that there WILL be a revision to our stated purpose. I must tell you that I personally have never felt comfortable with it and will use this opportunity to mandate a change. I realize that this is a small compensation you most of you, but surely you understand the impossibility of changing our traditions simply because another organization has a problem with them. Such a change would affect the hundreds of men who have pledged lifetime loyalty to this fraternity and would only serve to invalidate that pledge.

Ladies, I thank you for your time and I hope that this animosity between us can be quickly resolved.

Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc.

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triple http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif

LOL@myself!

Have a good weekend, ya'll...I will! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

much respect...

i am just curious about something.

on page two in the post made by AKA_Monet
you asked the following questions of Mr. Trevor Charles, Executive Director of Delta Phi Upsilon, Inc.

i may be wrong but in asking him to justify or devulge the meanings of the symbols, motto, and sheild that he holds dearly and is sacred to his fraternity. would this be much like myself inquiring about your esteemed sororities "business" as well? wouldn't that be very disrespectful on my part or in fact anyone's part?

i understand your concern. and i think that from reading Mr. Charles' very respectful, intelligent, and highly articulate posts that he had concerns as well...thus he approached your national headquarters on the same issues that have now been debated on this forum.

it is unfortunate but the fact remains that the welcoming of gay/lesbian/bisexual people into the divine nine has not been one of brother/sisterhood but one of disdain and bitterness. in many posts located all over this forum and included in this thread there are thinly veiled threats, derogatory names being called, and many homophobic & paranoid complaints about gays/lesbians/bisexuals alike. therefore ladies and gentlemen have taken it upon themselves to serve their communities. it is only natural. but that does not mean that there can not be some sort of camraderie amongst BGLOS, G/L/BiBGLOs, and GLOS and others.

i understand, although not a member of a greek organization, that the meanings of each symbol, motto, sheild, call, acronym, hand symbol etc. etc. mean the world to each of you...and it should. but you must also understand that their "business" means the world to them too...and just like yours...it is private and personal.

as none of you would appreciate an "ousider" being inquisitive to the point of demanding that you justify the "meanings" of your sacred items so too should you also respect that boundary for others. and as many of you would say and have said numerous times on various forums, "Membership has its Privileges"

I think it would also be interesting to note that there are 9 organizations under the NPHC umbrella. Each of these organizations are different, yet bound to serving the black community. But if there was only one organization that was handling the needs of the entire black community then the others would not have been founded. But this does not stop each organization from trying to be united with the other members of the Divine Nine to heal the ills of the entire black community. each organization thus lends a hand where they can be most useful. and Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc. and other gay/lesbian/bi BGLO's are doing the same thing....uplifting a part of the black community that other organizations have not served in the past.

i am sure that i will get blasted by this...i will get the replies that "i don't know what i'm talking about"..."shut up you're not greek"..."you must be gay thats why you're defending him"...and on and on.

but i hope that while you are making these remarks filled with anger, bias, and phobia that you think about how different his posts were...versus how many of your posts were. it would be helpful to talk to one another...and not spit so much hate at one another...

just some thoughts

peace



[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited March 30, 2001).]

Mr. Charles,

First off, what I was saying was Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. has two trademarked symbols. How can I trust you that you won't take those symbols, too since you have taken the other ones--no matter how you doctor it up for change?

If you have spoken to my Soror Norma S. White, and my Executive Director, Soror Betty James and felt they have been gracious toward your organization and knowing the history of the past imitations, I cannot speak for them. But my Soror Norma White speaks for my Sorority--it says so in my constitution and bylaws. And I as of yet have ever heard about your situation in any one of my clusters, regionals or international meetings. You should appeal to my Soror Norma S. White to make a presentation to my Sorors at my next International Meeting which will be in 2002. Then as a body, we will let the sorors decide the actions we should take regarding this issue.

My concern is that some caucasians confuse the diverse nature of our African American organizations as a whole. The government, who I think is seriously bigoted against gays and lesbians--even in Congress--has specific mandates for 501c3 foundations to remain a not-for-profit entity. It is the government and for that matter the media that I have concerns. They are going after Jesse Jackson's charity organizations very harshly based on his allocation of contributed funds. African American organizations have severe limitations on financial resource availibility and capital, if these bigoted forces can take down Jesse's Rainbow Coalition, they can damn sure take Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. down with one stroke... And you know they cannot tell the difference between us negroes... (I'm using that language for effect...)

But you said your foundations were rooted in mimicry? Am I incorrect? You still are using us as a resource, to what end? Some of my sorors could see this as stealing. Some of my sorors don't care. Either way, what did your members pledge a lifetime for? Moreover, your traditions do look like they have been based on some of ours and as for me, I can admit that hurts. Because, I felt I pledge my heart out for Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. I've been a financially active and participating soror for over 10 years and I feel that what was once so hard for me to reach which I now possess is being invalidated by an organization to which I have some reservations. I take it as an invalidation of my commitment to my Sorority. I understand that some of my sorors do not feel the way I do. But, it's a free country.

No, it is not right for us to demand you all to change. At the same time it would be incorrect of you to assume we have no reservations about both our organizations similarities... Some folk are incapable of being open enough to understand why.

However, I consider myself as a compassionate conservative. Yes, I said it. I can admit it. I realize your pains. There are teenage gay men and women who are commiting suicide because of lack of resources availible to them to strengthen their pursuit of their sexuality. And there are heterosexual teenagers that commit suicide too. I feel you are asking us to put the cart before the horse. How can I say you have a speck in your eye when I got a board in mine? So, I feel the need to help out ALL children regardless of their sexual orientation if they have a problem with their self-esteem.

All of us cannot have it all. Be it Princesses, Queens or Goddesses... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif However, there is one common thread among us and that is humanity... I don't know what else I can say but I am sorry this is the way I truly feel.

My intent was not for Mr. Charles to divulge his ritualistic information to me or any of my sorors. It was to make the point that my symbols mean something I hold near and dear to my heart based on work done by African American women over 90 years ago. What I wanted to point out, but I may have ineffectively explained myself, it how can these similar symbols have the impact you are trying to make the community that you serve... I do not need to know that answer, I was raising the question for folks to think about. Besides, just my me stating the relevance of my symbols for my Sorority and what my Founders implemented, give some interested women a big hint on what Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. is really about when you think about it... In fact, some of my sorors my flame me for divulging too much of my Sorority's information...

This is a S-E-R-I-O-U-S MATTER!!!!!!! I am outraged!!!!!!! I have never heard of any of this in my LIFE!!!!!!!!

much respect...

i understand. but even you questioning him isn't that considered disrespectful? yes, i understand that the symbols of your esteemed organization have great meaning. but...if i or anyone had the nerve or dare i say audacity to question you...whether it be rhetorical or not...about the meanings of the symbols you cherish...would that not be an act of disrespect?

i think it would be. not only would AKA's be pounding down my or anyone elses door but the whole of the Divine Nine would be out to get myself or someone else like this was a Salem Witch Hunt.

although i am happy that in your post to Mr. Charles you implored him to ask your National Executive Board to bring these issues up at your next meeting...i am dismayed by the fact that you are a compassionate conservative.

Dubya would be very happy to hear that. unfortunately it is the "compassionate conservatives" who are doing the destroying of grassroots black organizations. but that is a conversation for another thread.

thank you for your ear

peace

Thank you, lastpoetnsite for your understanding.

Ladies, as eloquent and as articulate as some of you have called me, I am out of words. If any of you visit our website again at delta-phi-upsilon.org, you will find certain changes have been implemented. Like I promised, the purpose has been revised. The public motto has also been revised to "Reaching the World Through Service To Our Kind," which in all honesty always was the motto, we've just always used the shorter phrase, so that's not too drastic a change for us internally. I hope this satisfies some of you, but I realize that it won't satisfy all of you. That's ok. Delta Phi Upsilon does not wish to have Alpha Kappa Alpha as an enemy, nationally or locally. Personally and organizationally, we hold Alpha Kappa Alpha and all the other members of the NPHC in the highest regard. This will be my final post to this forum as we will not continue to justify or defend our traditions to anyone. They hold a totally different meaning to us and we love them just as you do. I will take the advice of one of the posters and contact the AKA headquarters tomorrow regarding this. Thank you, as always for listening. This has been a most enlightening and informative discussion.

Yours in Greekdom,
Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity

My thoughts exactly, soror.

Okay enough aleady with this thread http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

People are entitled to their opinions and as far I am concerned as a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha, as well as the opposite end of conservative I wish Delta Phi Upsilon GOOD LUCK in their future http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif. I am convinced that the fraternity realizes the nature of many of my sorors discomfort in using "our" symbols. The bigger picture here is about humanity though, and I gurantee if sexual oreintation were not a factor here, there wouldn't be 50+ responses to this topic. I am so sick of peoples personal decisions becoming the REAL issue and respondents playing the role as though "its not that its homosexuality its..." please give me a break http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif.

[This message has been edited by Wonderful1908 (edited March 31, 2001).]

It seems to me that the ladies of AKA have based their judgment of my fraternity on hearsay and not fact. Delta Phi Upsilon does not have, does not use and has never even seen the rituals of AKA. Please also see the following which is a reprint of a message I posted to all AKA members on this board which was subsequently deleted by the moderators. Thank you.

This message is for the ladies of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., and any other interested parties. My name is Trevor Charles and I am the Executive Director of Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc., an organization of gay men of color who are dedicated to the pursuit of community service. For a while now, my office has been besieged by emails from members of Alpha Kappa Alpha, whose sole purpose is to take my organization to task for its very existance. All of these emails allude to the fact that certain traditions of my fraternity happen to be similar to those of AKAs. Let me first state that while I can certainly understand the attachment that you may have to the Ivy leaf, the pearl, etc, I must point out to you that no organization holds exclusive rights to the use of these icons. These are universal symbols used by many other fraternal organizations, Alpha Phi Fraternity, being one. It is understandable that after almost 100 years, you would feel that within the black community, these symbols are exclusively yours. I have to wonder if you would have such a problem, if we were an organization of white men? In any case, our traditions cannot change, any more than yours can. Let me now address the supposed similarity between our public mottoes. Yes, there is a similarity between the two... in words. Alpha Kappa Alpha has pledged "service to all mankind," while Delta Phi Upsilon pledges "service to our kind." To those of us who are truly concerned about service and not just the outside trappings of a fraternity/sorority, it's not so much the words but the meaning behind them and what you do with those words. Because the "traditional" BGLOs have not made room within their brother/sisterhoods for gay and lesbian members of society to function as themselves, the need exists for groups like Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Delta Phi Sigma Sorority, Delta Iota Lambda Sorority, Omicron Epsilon Pi Sorority and Iota Lambda Pi Fraternity, all of whom serve "our kind." So you see, while "Service To All Mankind" may have a distinct meaning to AKA, so to does "Service To Our Kind" to Delta Phi Upsilon. I also wish to assure all of you that Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity has not, does not and will not publically or privately call ourselves "AKAs". The organization that you are referring to was formerly called KOSIS, Inc.,(now Organized Body of Sorors) to which Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc., has NO affiliation whatsoever. In fact, our intake process expressly prohibits the acceptance of any man who holds or even used to hold, membership in KOSIS, Inc. I have personally spoken to AKA headquarters regarding this and have provided them with information needed to seek legal action against this group of renegade men. I too am appalled that they could practice such blatent disrespect for Alpha Kappa Alpha and her traditions, while professing love for her. I certainly hope that this will bring an end to the negative correspondence that we have been receiving. Of course, should any of you have any intelligent questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you for your time.

Trevor Charles
Executive Director
Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity, Inc.

this is why lastpoetnsite is my best friend...

love you girl!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif



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MaMaBuddha

Devastating
Stimulating
Tantalizing
_________________________

Imaginer un métro rempli avec les anges tombés...

NOT NECESSARILY, SOROR...

PERSONALLY, I DON'T CARE IF A PERSON IS BLIND, CRIPPLED, OR CRAZY...

ONE HAS GONE TOO FAR IF THEIR IDEALS/SYMBOLS/ETC. ARE THE SAME OR 99.9%SIMILAR TO THAT OF AN ORGANIZATION ALREADY IN EXISTENCE.

SHUCKS, MY THING IS, DO YOUR OWN THING, BECOME CREATIVE...DON'T "BITE" OFF OF OTHERS. (Wellllllll, I guess it's too late, huh?) http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

SINCE WE KNOW THAT THE "RAINBOW" SUPPOSEDLY IDs GAYS/LESBIANS (I KNOW MANY A-A GAYS/LESBIANS THAT RECOGNIZE THE RAINBOW THING), THEN USE THAT, IF YOU ARE BLACK AND THINK THAT IT IS OF A WHITE THING, MAKE SURE THE BLACK, RED AND GREEN ARE CLOSE TOGETHER IN YOUR "RAINBOW"... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Again, Soror Wonderful, you can have your opinion on this matter, just as well as anyone else(like you said), but don't criticize others for what they have said.
YOU, NOR I, DO NOT KNOW what is going on in a person's head, when they are replying. ALL YOU KNOW is what is going on inside that pretty little head of yours! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

We are only responsible for what we (personally) post here...We cannot do a dayum thing about what someone else says/believes, etc.

Trust me! I am going to save my HEARTATTACK/STROKE for something more worthwhile, not a few words typed via computer! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif (I got that line from my GAY co-worker...lol)

***I think this is hitting a little too close to home for some! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif***

Just my opinion.


[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited March 31, 2001).]

I know I said that my last post was my last, but I felt compelled to respond to this one. Regarding our motto, as I stated in my last post, our motto has always been "Reaching the world through service to our kind," but we've always used the shorter "service to our kind." So, we haven't really changed anything. As far as the symbols, when AKA or any organization gains the ability to copyright the use of the ivy, or the pearl, or a dove, etc., then we can talk.

As I stated, also in my last post, this is not about sexual orientation for me. If anyone on this forum or anywhere else in life has a problem with my sexual orientation, then that's their problem. I don't have a problem with it. You can debate it, call me names, tell me how I'm going to hell, etc, till the cows come home, it won't change the facts of my orientation. Secondly, Delta Phi Upsilon does not use Alpha Kappa Alpha's symbols.We use universal symbols that happen to also be used by Alpha Kappa Alpha. I understand that as humans we can all read the same thing, yet each get a different message from it (kinda like the Bible - but that's a whole different topic, which I am NOT trying to start), but I urge you all to read very carefully the words of my postings. To all the women of AKA and other orgs, who have sent private emails of support, thank you.

Ok, hopefully, this will be my last post. LOL.

Trevor Charles.

[This message has been edited by DeltaBro1 (edited March 31, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DeltaBro1 (edited March 31, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DeltaBro1 (edited March 31, 2001).]

I can surely save my heart attack for something else like when I recieve my student loan repayment book http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif!!!!!! Its just that I grew up in a very liberal/homosexual tolerable part of America (Bay Area) so I may be over sensitive to the issue. At any rate I was assuming the negativity surronding this thread was based on sexual oreintation, and perhaps its not, who knows but the posters themselves http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif?

I'm just excited I have smiles http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif in my post, ahhhhh the power of SEARCH, lol!!!!!

First, if one is going to form "THEIR OWN" organizations and serve "THEIR OWN NEEDS and PURPOSES" well then get "YOUR OWN SYMBOLS". It's that simple. In order to specialize something it must be done 100%. Anything less is not original.

Second, if it was that easy to change a motto that one has had since inception, then why can't the symbols be changed either?

Lastly, why is that someone cannot disagree with an issue-the use of another orgs symbols-without being cosidered conservative and against gays? How liberal is that?

I must say that for me it was never about homosexuality. I have a HUGE problem with sweetheart groups. I assumed that this was the case about the Delta fraternity. I assumed that the fraternity was made up of a group of grown men who wanted to pledge AKA. I mean that sickened me. There was a question in the Kappa forum about women who were interested in joining Kappa. That sickened me also. So after the brother came in here and explained his fraternity's position, I sorta sympathized with his plight. Then it occured to me that they shared the same founding date, and the use of both the Ivy and the Pearl. You know the saying if it walks like a duck...I agree that it may have been necessary for this brother and others to feel that they needed to start their organization. However, why did they feel the need to carry many of the traditions well known to be used by Alpha Kappa Alpha. I can assume that they have their own meaning behind the symbolism of these objects. But that's not good enough for me. And, January 15, is just a date. But why that date? Also their motto. "Service to our Kind". I'm so sick of non Divine Niners saying that we members are not living our purpose or we've deviated from our founders' dreams. That's the reason why subsequent organizations were founded after 1906 and 1908. But unlike like todays generation of organizations, they really searched their hearts and minds for an answer. They used "creativity" in forming symbols that meant something to them and the type of organization they wanted to form. And many talk about the hazing that has plagued the Divine Nine but yet they have lines, line names, and numbers. Unlike AKA2D said, I don't think that they should have relied on the trite rainbow symbol. But I do feel that they could have found something that better represented their plight as being both gay and African American men in an oppressed society. To all future founders of greek organizations. If for some reason there is not an organization that meets your particular needs, by all means go and found your own thing. That's what my founders did. But please keep this in mind, originality is the key. If the Divine Nine has strayed from its mission as you say, then don't mimic us. After all, the purpose of your founding would be to provide something lacking in current GLO's already in existence. It's just the coincidences are way too eerie to me. I can totally understand what some AKA's feel. If some other organization would come along and incorporate some of the symbols that made Kappa the great institution it is, I'd be a little leary of them too. But in saying all of this, Brother good luck to you and your organization.

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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited March 31, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited March 31, 2001).]

I have gone over this thread many times. I have looked at every opinion and I have contemplated whether or not to post because I only have a certain frame of reference. But I have found some of these comments very unsettling. The above quote was a bit disturbing to read because I felt a sense of elitism flowing through it. Based on what Trevor Charles said, he has used Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority as a frame of reference but so did the sororities that came after Alpha Kappa Alpha and I am quite sure that this organization used the GLO's and other orgs. in the like as a frame of reference. I could imagine the comments that were made on white campuses when BGLO's began popping up. My question here is out of respect to what? I believe that the fact that Mr. Charles created his fraternity to serve the gay community in a positive way is respect enough.

Sisterfriend AKA_Monet, your post touched me the most because I really got the sense as to why you and many of your sisters who share your viewpoint feel the way you do, however, I feel that you maybe upset more at the fact that this is a homosexual organization. What gave me that feeling was when you said:

I understand that everybody gotta do they own thang. Whateva's cleva. In fact my cousin is a lesbian and was out when people in her small southern Black community thought we don't have those "caucasian" sexual orientation issues. I mean no offense, but in the Black community, some people do think that sexual orientation is not OUR issue.

To me this is just like a white person saying "I'm not prejudice/racist, I have Black friends." Right there you are just showing your true colors. You also felt the need to justify your heterosexuality and IMHO this justification only occurs when you are uncomfortable with someone else's sexual preference

SF Monet you also mentioned that part of the issue is also the fact that there will be people misconstruing this organization for others and will perhaps continue fighting within our community over same symbol usage. My question is how and why would there be any strife? I believe if you and others of like mind weren't so incensed, there would be no infighting. I firmly believe that because you are the First Black Sorority that the emulation would be welcomed. Perhaps would you have preferred them to use Alpha Phi Alpha as a frame of reference?

Lastly, why would you ask Mr. Charles what the symbols, colors etc. mean for his organization. I believe sf that you do not have the right to do that. He and his brothers know and that is enough. I am not stupid there are people probably out there desiring to be like you and your sisters but there are genuine people like I believe Mr. Charles is who mean no harm. I think naysayers out here need to really look outside the box and try to uplift each other. The powers that be are looking at us and love the divisiveness. So please, can we try and be more accepting?

I hope you guys understand my P.O.V. I was up very late typing this. Take Care.....

Mr. Trevor is now trying to start trouble in the Delta Sigma Theta forum.

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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

What was so disturbing about my post? And what sense of elitism did you see flowing through it? All I was trying to say was or rather rationalize was why the need to use a majority of an organization's symbols for the last time I was stressing BE ORIGINAL. True other sororities that followed may have used AKA as a frame of reference but did they use a COMBINATION of AKA's colors, symbols, founding dates? No! Each organization has it's own separate identity. If your intent was to create an organization specific to "your kind" and set itself from aside from all others, why not be more original and create your own identity not emulate someone elses. Well, i'm done for now got better things to talk about! Bye everyone.

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Cancel My Subcription Because I'm So Sick And Tired Of Your Issues!

Wisemen Speak Because They Have Something To Say, Fools Because They Have To Say Something!

[This message has been edited by Inquisitive (edited April 01, 2001).]

If by "trouble" you mean something negative, then I resent that. If you don't, then sorry!!

Wow, such harsh words. I guess one can't even mention another frat's name.

[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited April 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited April 01, 2001).]

MIND YO BITNESS!

Consider it done. LOL. I keep saying "this is my last post" but I keep coming back. This is so addictive.

When I stated my opinion, not once did I use profanity nor did I disrespect you. If your only recourse in responding to me was to curse than you should have kept your comments to yourself.

Inquisitive, I understand where you are coming from a little more clearer. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited April 01, 2001).]

I meant you no personal disrepect, and I apologize if I came across that way. I get tired of this subject, and my fraternity being mentioned in the same sentence with it. It is an issue my chapter never had to worry about; nor most of those in my region. Manhood is one of our principles; therefore my fraternity has nothing to do with this issue. Again, please accept my apology.

Original Ape,

your apology is accepted and Thank you.

What the FREAK is really going on up in here, up in here?

I go away for MORE THAN 24 hours and you all are acting OUT OF ORDER....

Ya'll better get your minds right! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif LOL

To all those upset at the fact that I feel the way I do, too bad... I just do.

I reviewed my Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. Constitution and Bylaws and I found out that ALL our symbols and mottos are trademarked and patented. That means the Coat of Arms, the Pin, the term "Fashionetta", the motto: "Service to All Mankind" and the name Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.

I don't know what my Sorority's corporate office and international directorate will tell me at any upcoming meetings. So I cannot say what is in regards to the Delta Phi Upsilon Fraternity. I wish their organization well and I hope their pursuits are not in vain.

Anybody has a right to question anybody's ideas and statements in the United States. To do that is our right to freedom of speech as guarenteed by the US Constitution. However, it doesn't guarentee the repercussions and consequences taken against ones statements. As some of you cursing me out for my statements to question, I reiterate, all I was asking Mr. Charles was to THINK about what the reasons were to form the meanings behind his organization's symbols. I, myself, do not care what they are and I really do not want to know. But based on his statements regarding the history of his organization, I was trying to make my point clear that the usage of his organization's chosen symbols are really unoriginal in my opinion and I have that right.

If you do not think I have that right, so what!!! I do not really care. Because in the grand scheme of things, we can only leave this world one way and no one can get out of it...

**** Intriguing 18 posted this as a new topic.... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

So I added it to this discussion, since it is the SAME topic....


Hi Sorors,
I think this fraternity could have been much more original with its symbols,dates, etc. I am offended!!
I e-mailed the national headquarters and asked them where did they get the idea for the organization, considering it has a tremendous amount of similarities with AKA.

Someone responded by saying " The idea for our fraternity originated from the need for more gay men of color to be able to share in the fraternal experience without trouble of blatent homophobia and harrassment."
He did not address the issue of them having such great similarities.

I understand the need to express yourself; but please leave MY FRAT the freak http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif out of your conversation! Please.



[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited April 01, 2001).]

Ok, here I go again. I had to respond to this one. Where do I start??? The Original Ape claims that his chapter/region has never had to "deal" with this because "manhood is one of our principles," and that his "fraternity has nothing to do with this issue." I think he has just justified the need for my fraternity. He is assuming that there are no gay men in his fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha. I don't even see a need to address that ridiculous notion so.... I'm gonna go now. I'll think I'll call one of my regional directors... who USED to be a member of Alpha Phi Alpha.