Certainly people are going to notice your physical appearance... but why does overweight automatically equal negative? If a PNM is a smart, witty, polite and fun woman, wouldn't she be a fantastic addition to your sisterhood? Does it really matter if she wears a size 18 instead of a 2? I guess I should be grateful that the wonderful Greek women on my campus looked at a person's character...

I wonder what would happen if Fraternities started judging guys on their "physique." 90% of the "average Joes" would be out on their rear ends.

Something to ponder...

i'm PROUD to call you my sister!

It's so easy to say that, but when you get a girl, like me, who was cut from 7 houses out of 9 the first day you tend to wonder. And when those two houses, houses that don't usually make quota (and didn't that year), cut you later in the rush process, you wonder more. I didn't make it to preference.

And then you think back at the look of the houses of beautiful thin girls. And it hurts more.

Now I'm not knocking the greek system at all. And I still want to be a part of it! :)

My freshman year (after rush), I didn't gain the freshman 15. It was the freshman 30. In one semester. Add that with the fact that I was already struggling with my weight, and I had acquired and injury that would forever put my right knee in a painful position. And I couldn't excercise normally for months.

Now, August comes around again, and I have the option to rush. Give me one reason why I shouldn't believe that 30 extra pounds wouldn't be noticed. (I did have an event that would conflict with preference, so I couldn't rush, but I could have missed it if I really wanted to.)

I'm over this and past it all, but it amazes me how people think that weight isn't a factor. If it isn't, then I should be able to walk in there at 130 and get rejected by every house again. I have the same attitude, same personality, same smile, :), same me.

Don't tell me that 7 houses thought I wasn't good enough based on my personality, outgoing-ness, and whatnot. If I'm sharing this all with a bunch of strangers (and honey ;)) then you know I'm not a shy person. I was a legacy at a house that cut me. Figure that out.

Will I rush in the fall? Of course I'll try it out. I've lost that 30 pounds, but still have a while to go. But don't tell me this isn't a factor.

Sorry about the rant...:D Forgive me?!?

YES, there are some chapters that will cut you automatically if you are overweight. YES, that sucks, but do you really want to be a part of that chapter? find a group that takes the time to get to know who you really are, and wants you for who you are, and that's golden :) i think some overweight women who rush might be so insecure about themselves during recruitment that they forget to show themselves off!

But I know of otherwise great chapters with awesome women who have been known to do this. It's kinda sad.

Sad thing was, I was pretty much shown during that rush period that all groups cut based on weight. The two houses that cut me later, we're ABC and XYZ. ABC I didn't fit in well with at all. Just didn't. It wasn't my home. XYZ I loved during rush, and I COBed there earlier in the year, and I never got a call back. That discourages me to no end.

True... most fraternities don't place as much emphasis on looks/physique. But some of them place more emphasis on how much money your dad makes or what part of town you live in than some sororities do!

(note: I said SOME, not ALL.)

Are there really schools were every PNM is a size 0, 2, or 4, six feet tall, and blonde and blue eyed? :confused: I couldn't imagine it.

I know many women who rushed more than once. I don't think it reflected poorly on them.

Yea, you wouldn't think it'd happen, but it does. And I only go to school in Missouri. I'm going to guess that it's probably even worse in the South where greek life is an even bigger deal.

I remember distinctly thinking on one day of rush this year as we were escorting the PNM's into our house, I was intimidated by some of them. It seems like every year they get better and better looking, seriously. AXJules can back me up on this, I was totally blown away by the girls that rushed this fall. The majority of them were blond, beautiful, immpecably dressed in expensive clothes, and for the most part they had decent personalities. :D

As for the weight thing being a factor, I hate to say this, but it's true. I know that a lot of girls think that if they let in overweight people then they'll get the reputation as the "fat girls" and that can literally kill your chapter on this campus. A sorority right now is suffering from that exact thing. It sucks, but this is a very very competitive Greek system, and there are a lot of close minded people who aren't able to look past appearances. :(

I think there aren't any schools where EVERY PNM is gorgeous, but the more competitive a rush is, the more likely that most of them are. Our rush isn't even known as super-competitive, and there is only one sorority that you HAVE to be beautiful to get into -- but I would say that 95 percent of the girls going through rush are above average in terms of attractiveness. Even a number of the girls in the so-called "fat sorority" would make your jaw drop with how beautiful they are.

It's funny because it's entirely based on comparison -- the fat sorority is really only "fat" compared to the gorgeous size 0s in the "blonde sorority." The groups on this campus that are struggling with their reps would, if transplanted to a lot of other Greek systems around the country, likely be in the top-middle tiers of the groups. For some groups at REALLY competitive schools, this is even more true.

But like Kiki said, becoming the "fat sorority" can take a hit to your reputation far harder than almost anything else. Being the fat sorority is harder to recover from than being the junkie sorority, than being the slutty sorority, even than being the ugly sorority. I'm not sure why that is, but it's at least partially related to the fact that, historically, part of the rush process has usually been not just finding girls that you mesh with, but finding girls that will appeal to the fraternities. You just didn't see the same thing happening with the fraternities, where they were looking for the guys that would appeal to the sororities -- they took who they wanted to take.

For better or for worse I've seen this changing to the point where a lot of frats ARE getting concerned about what kind of guys appeal to the sororities. But that goes along with the trend of guys becoming more concerned about their looks in general. AND brings us to another whole topic entirely . . . :p

more on the weight thing
 

thanks to every one who truthfully discussed the weight issue/nonissue. when i introduced the topic in this thread i felt that i was taking a risk, but decided to take that risk and point out one more possible reason a pnm might not be invited back to a house. and we all know that in each of our organizations, on a national level, there are "fat" chapters, ugly chapters, genius chapters, gorgeous chapters, chapters overflowing with members and chapters that make you wonder how they survive year to year. and just because we state that looks might be a reason doesn't mean we think that it is right or even agree with it. and we certainly don't mean to discourage anyone from participating in the recruitment process. as always, there are exceptions to every rule! lisa

I suppose that weight can obviously be seen as a difference for some of the chapters on my campus-- some aren't over a size 4 or 6 honestly. And my chapter doesn't do that, and if we become the fat girls some day and that kills us-- then I will be okay with it, knowing I have the beautiful (inside and out) girls to call my sister-- not the one that was dressed well in her size 4 pants.

I don't know-- I guess I feel that I would rather have a PNM that would bring A LOT to the chapter, no matter there weight or looks then anything.

The truth is that rush goes so fast and everyone gets judged quicker than they would like-- but I never want to be THAT chapter that judges women based on their dress size.

Hate to Break it to You...
 

[Hijack]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but maybe what you consider "not being shy" comes across as rude or over the top. Not everyone believes that sharing stories with strangers is the "appropriate" thing to do. There are a lot of women who are overweight who get bids during rush, even at USC. That being said, history has shown that chapters don't survive on competive campuses if they are not popular with the fraternities. There is not a historical high demand for overweight ugly girls, so I'll let you guess who gets picked first.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many NPC groups have legacy policies that require them to keep someone for another round. On most campuses, and for most NPC groups, if a chapter releases a legacy it is a BIG DEAL and it is waste of that legacy's time to keep going back to COB events.

[/Hijack]

This is kind of interesting to me. My boyfriend and I noticed the other day how everyone we see is really great looking. I figured that we're in New York City, and a lot of models and actors and actresses live in this neighborhood. Maybe people are just getting better looking everywhere. You don't have to be a natural beauty anymore. Nutrition, diet, exercise, cosmetics, hair products including color, contact lenses, and fashion play a big role in the lives of many people. Plastic surgery is also an option that many people including teens utilize. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. I just wonder what happens to the 'normal' looking girls or the girls who are less than attractive at these schools with a competitive rush. Are they dropped from recruitment immediately? Do they not even bother to sign up?

My school was the U of S Carolina and I recall way back in the late 1980's you could tell almost 100% of the time which sorority a girl was in by how she looked. Yes we had the fat sorority and the ugly one and the one with all the homecoming queens. Rushing at U of Sc could be a traumatic thing if you did not meet the right "look." As shallow as it was, it was very much the prevalent idea at the time. In fact, I distinctly remember how nasty it could be. There was a girl on campus who was a quadraplegic and used a motorized wheelchair. She also had a sorority canvas bookbag attached to the back of her chair with XYZ letters embroidered on it. When I went to the COB party for this group, one of the FIRST things I was told was that that poor girl WAS NOT a member of their sorority and they were very angry she had gotten a hold of their bag.

How sad is that. It's one thing to choose the image you want for your sorority, no matter how stuck up it is. However, to go to such lengths to ostracize this girl probably made THEM look way worse for bringing them up, then to just accept the fact that the girl very obviously looked up to them.

Re: Hate to Break it to You...
 

I think she meant us here on GC, not that she was going to every rush event and telling them her ultimate hopes and fears.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You should come here to Florida Tech. Those tech school nerds are sexeh! ;)

"There is not a historical high demand for overweight ugly girls..."

Please tell me who decided that overweight equals ugly? I make a great living as a plus-sized model and I don't think any of my fellow models are ugly. And most of us are sorority women (DZ, SDT, AGD, Tri Delta and Sigma Kappa), so at one point someone thought overweight was OK.

It frightens me that the current train of thought is that the "reputation" of a house is more important than the quality of the members. The pressure it must put on PNM's is scary! GLO's are supposed to make its members feel good about themselves...

I can comprehend.......


I know a certain group that wins almost every award imaginable every yr, and because of that stigma, they are also the smallest (28, average is 70).

Also, a certain house could have thrown an awesome beach soccer tournament that was well presented and well put together, better than the rest of the houses that presented.

But, the popularity contest kicked in. Thanks though ladies, you've really proved my point.

Thank you, I'm getting a bit frustrated. I hate the way this is going and that this is the truth from everyone. I don't think that overweight equals ugly and I know chubby girls who are way more popular then thin ones.

Wow-- I am glad that I'm not a PNM in the south.

Caitlin... I'd be proud to call you my sister!

>>>Wow-- I am glad that I'm not a PNM in the south<<<

I am in the south and I will agree that, in general, rush is fairly competitive. Don't kid yourself, though, the south is not the only part of the country where PNM's are sometimes judged on looks. That goes on everywhere, even your campus I bet.

No kidding. I'd rather look like Emme than Cindy Crawford.

Definitely definitely true...looks may be more important at a school with a larger rush, but they're important everywhere. I'm not saying you have to be a perfect 10, but appearance is a factor everywhere in life, including GLOs.

(ducks)

I think we're not just discussing a problem with sororities I think we're discussing a problem with society in general.. I mean the reason it happens during rush is because it happens in real life.. it's sad but true.
As far as caring about what the fraternity boys think... well I think it SUCKS... but especially at schools like mine where there's really only two fraternities to hang out with.... if they don't want to hang out becuase they think you're the "fat" chapter... well. yeah your chapter is pretty much screwed because like it or not part of the reason a lot of people joined was social, and for a lot of girls that means a chance to be social with the fraternities.

I know that everyone is going to get mad at me for saying this, but I have to agree with USchica about the whole weight thing definitely being a factor during USC rush. When I rushed, I definitely wasn't fat or anything, but some of the heavier girls in my rush group, even though they were really nice, got cut a little bit harder than others. While I was more along the lines of a size 6, I still got heavily cut as well....mainly because I didn't wear all of the right clothes, didn't have any reccomendations, was kind of shy, etc. But in the end, being heavily cut, while I was devastated at the time, ended up being the best thing for me....because if I had gotten into my fave house, alpha phi, I never would have met all the amazing girls in my local, Alpha Gamma Gamma. While I ended up being friends with alot of APhis and spending the night their many times, and always wondered what it would have been like if I had gotten into Alpha Phi, I realized later that I needed a smaller chapter like AGG to change me from the shy girl who had never been away from home for more than a week, who had never had a drink in her life, never even kissed a boy, never really had strong girlfriends, to the much more confident and savvy woman that I am today!!!!!

So don't always look at being cut as a negative, sometime you'll find your niche somewhere else, and realize that what you thought you wanted, isn't what you would have wanted now!!!!!
[though I'm not saying if you're cut, it was meant to be that way!]

Rachel, great post and persepective on your rush experience. It proves the point that we can grow and learn and become better verisions of ourselves from every situation if we take the time to think about how we really feel about things.

Re: Hate to Break it to You...
 

I think the idea that "un-popular" sororities will go under if the fraternities don't like them, is absolutely disgusting. Our founders did not create the wonderful organizations we have today so we could all hook up with fraternity boys. I think if we as women would stand up and STOP taking this crap attitude, then the whole system would be better because of it.


As for COB-ing, that is never a waste of anyone's time. It is a great opportunity for women to really get to know each other, as people, as friends and maybe ...just maybe...as sisters.

I agree with so many of the above point, thought I have seen both sides. There is a sorority or 2 who are unpopular and constantly made fun of on my campus. And my campus is in the backwoods of NH and we only have about 3500 undergrads. I have seen all sides of this case..

But also.. I am nowhere near a size 6. But the DZ sisters accepted me and wanted me to be part of their sisterhood regardless, and based on my personality. (THANK GOODNESS!)

I do think it is terrible that people judge others like that.

Quote:

I think we're not just discussing a problem with sororities I think we're discussing a problem with society in general..

Glitter650.. EXACTLY! I COuldn't have said it better. That's the main point of this issue.

Life goes by too fast.... Short or Tall, Fat or Skinny, we're all here on earth for a purpose, which I idealistically think is for the betterment of humankind. I'm a firm beleiver that one day, everything will come back three fold to those who chose to discriminate based on appearance, sexuality, religion or color. It's called Karma and let me tell you, it can be a real bitch! :)

Ok, I'm sorry but THAT is BS. 155 lbs and 5'6" is not grossly obese. That's like, "Oops, I was a high school varsity athlete and I stopped playing for a year or two". I can understand being disgusted by someone who is slovenly and obviously doesn't take care of themselves. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying that everyone who is overweight doesn't have a good appearence or presentation... I have some sisters who weigh more than me and dress much better than I do!) But geez, everyone except for supermodels has a little bit of pudge!

I'm sorry Discotish, that just made me really angry. I can't believe that people that supposedly stand for higher ideals of womanhood would do that to someone. :mad: I'm glad that you have a positive outlook, but damn, that is just wrong.

Amen, Glitterkitty.

I honestly do believe that weight has something to do with it while I was away at school I was like one of the 5 "bigger" grls that rushed and we all got cut...it was hard to deal with. I member when I went to preferences and my Rho Chi was like Lauren I don't know why but none of the sorority's picked you...I mean to hear something like that is just crushing. But I did bouce back...it's just hard to hear there is something wrong with you.

:eek:

Earlier someone mentioned that their system seemed almost self-selecting...it was that way on my campus too. Recruitment was second semester, so there was plenty of time for everyone to get acquainted. It used to bother me when the upperclassmen who worked freshman registration would stand there and say, "Yep, she's going to be a Zeta. The one in the blue? Phi Mu material." etc...


I *hate* the fact that people are judged by their weight. :mad: I would rather have "fat" sister than a bitchy one any day of the week.

On picking our girls for the fraternity boys: It happens, unfortunately. Everytime you say, about a rushee, "Awww, she's so cute!" (and mean it in terms of looks and not personality) you're enforcing it. For those of us who are heterosexual, which is most of us in the sorority system, why do we care if our sisters are beautiful on the outside? We don't, unless it's to impress the guys.

And yeah, it sucks. But unless every single woman in the sorority system at your school decides to reject that viewpoint, it's not going to change. And since most of the girls at the top of the looks pyramid like being the favorites, it's unlikely to happen.

On my size-ism on rush at some schools: Obviously I can't speak for every school, but here's the problem with rushing and being overweight at a campus like mine: of COURSE everyone wants a sister with a great personality over one who is beautiful and b*tchy. But the problem is that, in a rush like this, you might be a bit chubby and have a great personality -- but the majority of the girls going through have great personalities and are beautiful and skinny to boot. So you have an automatic handicap to overcome in order to get into the more competitive sororities. Does that mean you won't get a bid? Of course not -- 9 times out of 10 a sorority would rather give a bid to the girl with the great personality who's a little overweight than the one who's beautiful but annoying or mean or tacky. But you're not just competing with annoying, mean, tacky, beautiful, skinny girls -- you're also competing with gracious, funny, enthusiastic, beautiful, skinny girls. Depending on how great your personality is, it may or may not be enough to get you into the house of your dreams.

But as stated, this isn't just a problem with rush, it's a problem with life. You will run into variations of this problem over and over again throughout your life -- not just getting the sorority you want, but getting the guy, getting the job . . . It sucks. It's not fair. That's been established. But what do we do about it from here?

Maybe I was a freak but I never looked at a girl and said "Oh my God, if she pledges then maybe the Phi Sigmas will mix with us!!" Yes it was nice to have nice looking girls - everyone likes being around attractive people, same or opposite sex, that's an established biological fact - but if she was stupid or mean she was out of there in a heartbeat no matter how stunning she was.

If you are choosing girls based on how the fraternities look at them you might as well put red velvet on your walls and call yourselves a whorehouse. Because that's what an establishment is that selects women based on their "value" where men are concerned.

At NCSU- Most of the sisters went to high school with the PNM. Its a fight to load their chapter with those girls that they know and then there are spaces left for those during rush. If you aren't from Charlotte or Raleigh, you are at a disadvantage because you don't have friends from high school in certain sororities or the girls don't know who you are and your family (might know a big brother)

"Size-ism" (is that a word?) is most definitely a problem in schools around here. I see many, many rush booklets and a couple of years ago, I saw one sorority's page that featured a shot with several very large sisters. Given the fact that this was a competitive school and that rushees are only 18 or so, I told my husband that that sorority had just shot themselves in the foot. Maybe they were trying to make a statement about their individuality--who knows?

Anyway, I asked the PNM from that school about it a few months later and she said that sorority didn't take any pledges in formal or open rush.:(