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-   -   Redskins = Racism (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=42666)

wreckingcrew 11-21-2003 04:21 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Redskins = Racism
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChaosDST
;) Correction:


However, he's not a "leader for the African American community," just as there is no ONE leader who is the "leader for the white community."


you are correct. I should have said, a leader amongst, or from the African American community. i didn't mean to imply that he was the only leader, just that he is one leader for the community, there are numerous others.

Kitso
KS 361

ChaosDST 11-21-2003 04:25 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Redskins = Racism
 
Quote:

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
you are correct. I should have said, a leader amongst, or from the African American community. i didn't mean to imply that he was the only leader, just that he is one leader for the community, there are numerous others.

Kitso
KS 361


No, it's not you. I understood what you meant.

It's a common sentiment that Jesse Jackson is THE leader for the black community. I was using you to make my general point ;)

aurora_borealis 11-21-2003 04:45 PM

So this is what we have so far
- Miami University and the relationship and agreement with the Miami Tribe/Nation is the exception, and NOT the rule.

- RedSkins is offensive because it is a slur that is a stereotype (and PERHAPS Indians has been changed as it isn't correct anymore as that desribes people from India, and in the US Native American is the common and accepted term?)

And GP, at least it is "the Fighting Irish" and not "The Ticked Micks", I bet you'd like that better :p

My favorite mascot forever will be Guilford College's Fighting Quakers. I'd like to see them take on Pacific Lutherans Lutes. The battle between the people who had a German monk riling up Rome, and the people in the black hats fleeing to the New World.

It's ON!!!!

P.S. Kitso Augsburg College in Minneapolis was founded before A&M they use maroon and go by the Auggies. Good thing we're peaceful folks and didn't come down to College Station and try and discuss it over coffee (I am just teasing ya it is a term for a baby eagle, which they use as a mascot).

ChaosDST 11-21-2003 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
So this is what we have so far
- Miami University and the relationship and agreement with the Miami Tribe/Nation is the exception, and NOT the rule.

- RedSkins is offensive because it is a slur that is a stereotype (and PERHAPS Indians has been changed as it isn't correct anymore as that desribes people from India, and in the US Native American is the common and accepted term?)

And GP, at least it is "the Fighting Irish" and not "The Ticked Micks", I bet you'd like that better :p

My favorite mascot forever will be Guilford College's Fighting Quakers. I'd like to see them take on Pacific Lutherans Lutes. The battle between the people who had a German monk riling up Rome, and the people in the black hats fleeing to the New World.

It's ON!!!!

P.S. Kitso Augsburg College in Minneapolis was founded before A&M they use maroon and go by the Auggies. Good thing we're peaceful folks and didn't come down to College Station and try and discuss it over coffee (I am just teasing ya it is a term for a baby eagle, which they use as a mascot).


Are you providing a summary or attempting to make a sarcastic point?

It's hard to tell with GCers these days......

aabby757 11-21-2003 05:15 PM

As a current and native Washingtonian who ADORES and loves the Redskins, if they changed the name I would suport it. I completely understand how Native American's are offended by it.

However, I also feel angel food cake and devil food cake and a million other terms should be changed.

Angel food cake is white
Devil's food cake is dark.

I too am not some out there hippie but I do think there are legitimate arguments in "his"tory and things like that.

Clinical trials being performed on men when ONLY women would take the drug, etc.

It goes on forever.

aurora_borealis 11-21-2003 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChaosDST
Are you providing a summary or attempting to make a sarcastic point?

It's hard to tell with GCers these days......

Both, trying to keep people laughing so the thread doesn't get ocked. The first two things were serious, the rest was me being silly with Geeky Penguin and Kitso because I have talked to them enough to know that I didn't cross the line there.

SigKapSmurf 11-21-2003 05:35 PM

I am very passionate about this subject because my HS's nickname was the Redskins until my junior year. We always felt that we did nothing but honor the Native American people and we never did anything derogitory in any way, but they found our masot offensive so they sued us. My school was very small so we did not want to spent the money to go to court and fight for what we believed in because that is not why pople pay taxes. We had a lawyer willing to represent us for free but the school board felt it would be better just to change the mascot and got our school out of the spotlight. I have argued this subject with many people on different football message boards and of course in person too. For some reason when your mascot was a Redskin you feel pride and honor for it and the Native American people, but I also understand why they do not feel it is right for teams to have a mascot such as this. However when you are the person who goes to that school (an one of the most spirited!) you find it hard to explain to an outsider why you feel these things for this mascot. It upsets me that we had to change because we grew up with that mascot, that is what we identified with. (I know, many people have told me that it is not a good thing to identify yourself with a "derogoitory" word such as that.) However, no matter what my HS's mascot is I will always be a Redskin!

DeltAlum 11-21-2003 07:23 PM

Mini hijack,

Hey Kitso, check out this link for some information you might find interesting:

http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/prop...h_kaptur5.html

The newly discovered location, now owned by the city of Toledo was, for many years, Mrs. DeltAlum's father's farm -- and several generations of their family before. It was purchased by the city when he retired.

She attended Anthony Wayne High School, named after the American general who commanded the U.S. forces -- a very strange man.

The short article also mentions Little Turtle, Chief of the Miami Indians -- a part of the Illinois (EDIT Huge typo here -- for any who may have already read this, it was the Iroquois Confederacy -- sorry, brain f*rt) Conferderacy of Native Americans --who were Wayne's adversary during the battle.

The keynote speech at the opening of the new Fallen Timbers park actually mentions the road that fronts the farm/now park. Here is a link to that speech.

Both are short, so I hope you can take a minute to read them.

http://www.heidelberg.edu/FallenTimb...mmemorate.html

During the over 50 years he farmed that land, he collected hundreds, actually probably thousands, of arrowheads, musketballs, tomahawk heads, skinning stones and other artifacts. He still keeps a few, but most were donated to various museums, etc.

End of hijack, thank you for your indulgence.

librasoul22 11-21-2003 07:29 PM

SigKap, was your pride really in the MASCOT? Or was it in the school itself? Did you matriculate through the Redskin mascot? What exactly was the source of pride?

I went to FSU, home of the Seminoles. We have war chants, Renegade the horse, and Chief Osceola. We also have a "pow wow" (pep rally) every year for homecoming.

The REAL Seminoles protest before almost every game. They have consistently voiced their disdain at being used this way. Yet, the traditions are so deep that I seriously doubt it will ever change. I have attended seminars and done extensive research on the background of the Seminole. They are TOTALLY misrepresented by my university...yet I still get chill in the pregame ritual when Renegade runs onto the field and Chief Osceola buries the burning spear in midfield.

My point is that I am vehemently against using NA's as team mascots, yet I, too, am affected by the rich tradition behind the way the University uses the mascot.

It's difficult.

Munchkin03 11-21-2003 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22

My point is that I am vehemently against using NA's as team mascots, yet I, too, am affected by the rich tradition behind the way the University uses the mascot.


Yes, it is. The Munchkin family is connected to the Seminoles, and I went to a HS that used Native American symbols and names. We were the "Big Green Indians," did the Tomahawk Chop, had a totem pole in the front of the school, and a lot of other stuff. Since our relationship with the Choctaw tribe was similar to that Miami supposedly had, it was not that offensive to me as someone with that background. BUT...there were other things. One of my high school teachers who was also of Native American ancestry tried to get the school to change some things, most notably their use of the word "squaw" to describe the head cheerleader :rolleyes:. Her request was met with a lot of rolled eyes and insults from people who didn't care what that word meant--it was tradition for crying out loud! :rolleyes: Since I have little or no contact with my high school now, I have no idea how things are. Being a "Big Green Indian" made me proud at 15, but in my 20s, I'm more than a little ambivalent.

Peaches-n-Cream 11-21-2003 08:01 PM

St. John's University in NYC had the Redmen as their mascot. Several years ago they changed it to Red Storm. I think that St. John's was able to strike a balance between the traditions of their sport teams and respect for Native American culture and heritage. Now if only they could win a basketball championship. :)

MuAZD 11-21-2003 08:08 PM

This thread reminds me of a Sopranos episode I saw a few weeks ago. The Native American community was protesting Columbus Day and the Italian community was protesting them protesting. I never realized how offended Native Americans might be about Columbus Day (unless it was a completely made up scenario). Made me stop and think.

SigKapSmurf 11-21-2003 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22
SigKap, was your pride really in the MASCOT? Or was it in the school itself? Did you matriculate through the Redskin mascot? What exactly was the source of pride?
I guess I kind of stated that wrong. I meant that the school took pride in that mascot as a whole. It was something that brought us together.

Rio_Kohitsuji 11-21-2003 09:06 PM

This thread reminds me of my summer class in Native American Anthropology...ahh..memories.. :p

Anyway...all I have to say is that my University's mascot is the "Redmen". My grade school was the "Defenders" as in "The Defenders of Christ" yeah. My high school was the "Blue Devils"..we had the "Black Knights", "Rebels", "Marauders" (basically angry Frenchmen :p) and the like. It still surprises me to this day that none of these schools weren't sued.

DeltAlum 11-21-2003 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MuAZD
The Native American community was protesting Columbus Day and the Italian community was protesting them protesting. I never realized how offended Native Americans might be about Columbus Day
No, it's not made up.

Consider poor old DeltAlum, who is of Cherokee ancestry and was born and raised in Columbus, Ohio. How confused can one man be? At least I'm not Italian. But I dated a few.

Explains a lot, doesn't it?

AXJules 11-21-2003 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DZGirl
We talked about this issue in one of my sociology classes. At the University of Illinois, there was a major ordeal when a Native American student wanted the university to stop using "Chief Illiniwek" as their mascot because she felt it was offensive and sent out the wrong message about her heritage, etc. Eventually, they stopped using it I believe.

I agree though, team names such as this can be quite offensive even if those affiliated or represented by it do not mean it to be. Sometimes we need to take a step back and think about how we would feel if it were our heritage being "mocked" because in a sense, that is what is happening here even though some may not see it as a big deal.

I might be kind of slow....but I skimmed the thread and didn't see anyone correct this...

We also talked about this in my Cross cultural journalism class- they just ruled to KEEP Chief Illiniwek for now.
Apparently as big of an issue as this is these days, there are still plenty of people willing to keep traditions going.

By the way, the Fighting Quakers or whatever the hell that is is the most AWESOME mascot I have ever heard of :D That's like the Brawling Amish or some shit :p

aurora_borealis 11-21-2003 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Munchkin03
did the Tomahawk Chop, had a totem pole in the front of the school, and a lot of other stuff....most notably their use of the word "squaw" to describe the head cheerleader :rolleyes:. ....
[hijack/] Digging deeper into this is the misplaced stereotypes. Totem poles are not likely representative of your area (I don't think you live out this way Munchkin, but please correct me if I am wrong). They are specific to the Northwest Coastal areas. Woodworking like that stretches from the north west coast of the US, all the way up into Alaska including Canada. Tomahawk and squaw are both Algonquin words, which was spoken in the Eastern part of North America, so it is rather incorrect when used elsewhere. Although many groups were moved west, so the language did spread. I mean hell, for the statement that using these things is "honoring", at least get the tribe/nation/language/culture correct. [/end hijack]

AXJules, GeekyP and I discussed it. I decided on "Angry Amish" with two guys holding crossed rakes in an aggressive manner (I am KIDDING).

wreckingcrew 11-21-2003 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltAlum
No, it's not made up.

Consider poor old DeltAlum, who is of Cherokee ancestry and was born and raised in Columbus, Ohio. How confused can one man be? At least I'm not Italian. But I dated a few.

Explains a lot, doesn't it?

DA,

i'm disappointed you didn't jump on this, but there was an actual protest by Native Americans at a Columbus day parade that was held this year!

Russell Means and other Lakota demonstraters protested and served the parade organizers with a request that they acknowledge the damage done to NA's following Columbus' "discovery" of America.

It was in Denver.

Kitso
KS 361

AXJules 11-21-2003 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurora_borealis

AXJules, GeekyP and I discussed it. I decided on "Angry Amish" with two guys holding crossed rakes in an aggressive manner (I am KIDDING).

THUPER. Found the mascot:
http://www.stuff-o-rama.com/amish.jpg

DeltAlum 11-22-2003 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
It was in Denver.

Kitso
KS 361

But I was in Columbus. Really. I didn't even hear about it!

Well, actually, I was in the air. I flew back to Denver on Columbus Day after homecoming weekend at Ohio University.

By the way, the original word for Ohio was the Native American word OYO, meaning Beautiful River.

sigtau305 11-22-2003 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChaosDST
That relationship between sports team and Native American group is rare.

Nevertheless, we have to look at the impact that such limited portrayals of racial and ethnic minorities, in this instance Native Americans, has on America.

I had a friend of mine at school who took part in a protest a couple of times during the summer at Jacobs Field to have the Cleveland Indians management Office get rid of the Chief Wahoo Image that was considered Offensive to Native Americans.

But It's hard to change the logo because it's been a part of the team for so long and everyone pretty much used to seeing it on the hats, Jerseys, etc. and they bringing in a pretty good amount of money from people buying those items at the sporting goods stores.

Sistermadly 11-22-2003 01:12 PM

The argument that tradition should outweight people's desire for positive representations is an interesting one, especially in light of using Native Americans as mascots.

That people can be more emotionally invested in a symbol than in a flesh-and-blood human being who is standing there telling you that such representations are insulting, hurtful, and belittling to those who adopt them speaks volumes to the level of self-centeredness that exists in our culture.

If someone stood next to you and started poking you with a stick for about 10 minutes, you'd tell them that it hurt and would ask them to stop. But what if that person answered "It's a tradition, and I'll always be a stick-poker!" and kept on doing it? Wouldn't you be annoyed and insulted that the person disregarded your wishes? Wouldn't you feel invisible and demoralized?

Munchkin03 11-22-2003 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
[hijack/] Digging deeper into this is the misplaced stereotypes. Totem poles are not likely representative of your area (I don't think you live out this way Munchkin, but please correct me if I am wrong). They are specific to the Northwest Coastal areas. Woodworking like that stretches from the north west coast of the US, all the way up into Alaska including Canada. Tomahawk and squaw are both Algonquin words, which was spoken in the Eastern part of North America, so it is rather incorrect when used elsewhere. Although many groups were moved west, so the language did spread. I mean hell, for the statement that using these things is "honoring", at least get the tribe/nation/language/culture correct. [/end hijack]



Yes, there were some of us who thought that those were wrong too. But these were rednecks who happened to have a lot of money, so no one was really going to challenge them. The teacher who did was basically tarred and feathered.

ChaosDST 11-23-2003 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigtau305
I had a friend of mine at school who took part in a protest a couple of times during the summer at Jacobs Field to have the Cleveland Indians management Office get rid of the Chief Wahoo Image that was considered Offensive to Native Americans.

But It's hard to change the logo because it's been a part of the team for so long and everyone pretty much used to seeing it on the hats, Jerseys, etc. and they bringing in a pretty good amount of money from people buying those items at the sporting goods stores.


Excellent analogy.

sugar and spice 11-23-2003 05:15 PM

Although if it's just from a marketing standpoint, they should take into account the fact that all the Indians fans would have to replace their Indians gear with gear that has the new mascot on it, thus creating more revenue. :p

ADqtPiMel 11-24-2003 04:25 PM

Oh my, I cannot believe I missed this thread!

mu_agd-
I'm not aware if the document is still hanging in the Miami Inn, I will have to check.

When I was a freshman, members of the Miami Tribe/Nation spoke at my residence hall. They basically said that while Miami University's mascot was established on a friendly basis, they supported its removal to set a precedent for other schools that have such mascots.

Sorry for the slight hijack :)

mu_agd 11-24-2003 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ADqtPiMel
Oh my, I cannot believe I missed this thread!

mu_agd-
I'm not aware if the document is still hanging in the Miami Inn, I will have to check.

last time i was in there, when you go in the front door and go to the right to go downstairs, it was hanging in that hall. don't know if it's still there or if they moved it.

CutiePie2000 11-24-2003 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sistermadly
The argument that tradition should outweight people's desire for positive representations is an interesting one, especially in light of using Native Americans as mascots.
Well said, S-M.
In Canada, we have our doozies as well:
Edmonton Eskimoes (The correct term is Inuit...Eskimo is a derogatory Cree term to mean eaters of raw meat).

Why did the Washington Bullets become the Washington Wizards? Was it because of gang violence in the DC area that "bullets" seems to suggest?

CutiePie2000 11-24-2003 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
would you really want your team to be the Rebels? I mean, if they were Rebelling, wouldn't that mean they'd be scoring touchdowns for the other team? :p
33girlfriend makes a very good point! :D

Peaches-n-Cream 11-25-2003 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
Well said, S-M.
In Canada, we have our doozies as well:
Edmonton Eskimoes (The correct term is Inuit...Eskimo is a derogatory Cree term to mean eaters of raw meat).

Why did the Washington Bullets become the Washington Wizards? Was it because of gang violence in the DC area that "bullets" seems to suggest?

I think that the name was changed because of the violence associated with bullets.

Lil' Hannah 11-25-2003 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
I think that the name was changed because of the violence associated with bullets.
Yes, you are both correct. There was also an uproar about "Wizards" because people thought it had KKK connotations, but they ended up picking that one anyway.

Senusret I 11-25-2003 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
Yes, you are both correct. There was also an uproar about "Wizards" because people thought it had KKK connotations, but they ended up picking that one anyway.
absolutely, and as a washingtonian, i HATED the term "Wizards" not because of the "KKK connotations" but because YUCK who associates wizards with basketball? Now, the MYSTICS, that's a hot name! but wizards? *barf*

AXO_MOM_3 11-26-2003 01:01 AM

A little history...(kind of long)

I think people need to be aware of how deplorably the American Indians have been treated in the US since the anglos first set foot here...there were originally as many as 40 to 80 million American Indians living in this country. Only about 10% remained at the end of the 18th century due to disease (introduced by invaders), wars and basic annihilation.

Indians are the only population that have lost claim to their land, and forced to move to federally provided reservations. As far as Miami University goes, I seriously doubt the relationship with the Miami tribe has been that strong for 200 years. I'd love for anyone attending the school to see exactly how far back these programs and scholarships date. Did they start in 1809? Much of the land (about 30 million acres in Indiana and Illinois) the Indians sold were to pay debts for provisions and whiskey. Tribes sold each other out - the Deleware tribe sold some of the Miami tribes land. Eventually, the Miami Indian tribe was more or less forced to move to Oklahoma. And as far as the university buying the land in Oklahoma, and the Miami Indians were "willing to move and did not complain", what kind of message were they trying to send? "Okay - we are going to name the school after you, but you gotta move to another state cause we really don't want anything to do with you, we'll even pay for the land...how's that?". I don't mean to use Miami University as an example, and don't mean to offend but I have not seen any documentation about the actual relationship, and I think it might warrant a closer look. I think it is wonderful that they have such great programs for the American Indian there now, but would love to see exactly how far back these programs actually extend. And as Kitso said, it really depends on what treaty you look at, and who signed the agreement. You can read more about the Miami history at http://www.dickshovel.com.mia.html.

In 1830, the Indian Removal Act was passed - which basically meant that government could force the Indians to move further west into the frontier. The Cherokee tribe is a prime example of disharmony among tribes. MOST Cherokee members were opposed to leaving their homelands, but a small group felt the would survive only if they signed a treaty with the US, so they signed on behalf of the entire tribe (Of course the US did not care who signed the agreement as long as someone signed it and they got the Indian land they coveted). Five million dollars and a reservation in Oklahoma later, the Cherokee nation was rounded up at gunpoint and sent on their way. A few ran and made it to survive in the North Carolina hills, and that is why there are two bands of the Cherokee Nation. About one fifth of the tribe perished on the Trail of Tears. American Indians were uprooted and forced from their homes to new lands with no voice, time after time, tribe after tribe.

Kitso has referred to it, but check out the battle at Wounded Knee (http://www.dickshovel.com/DwyBrd.html.) Or http://dickshovel.com/hill.html. The US describes it as a battle, the Lakota describe it as a massacre of about 90 men and 200 women and children. The land supposedly belongs to the Lakota tribe, but in 1995 a bill was placed before congress to take that land and build a memorial. A memorial to what? Whose memorial - the US calvary or the Lakota tribe?

Until 1978, when the Indian Child Welfare Act was enacted, the American Indian cultures were decimated by forcing children to leave home at a young age, and sending them to boarding schools, where they were taught how to act like little anglo people. Indian children were taken from their homes, and placed out for adoption among white families in attempts to "civilize" the "savages". Many tribes have suffered irreparable harm to their culture, traditions and values as a result. This stopped only 25 years ago. Every other minority in America has been treated much better than the American Indian.

For about 200 years, this countries unspoken motto towards American Indians was "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". The image of the "redskin" or "warriors" speak of something other than the real people whose complexity and concerns cannot be reduced to such inadequate images, nor should be with mascots or anything else. It is majorly offensive to the American Indian, (as Kitso said, just as offensive as calling a team the N word) and I personally think that teams should respect that.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I think people need to be more aware and culturally sensitive to the American Indian history. Educate yourself about it. You might just find yourself quite appalled and horrified by what you find.

Senusret I 11-26-2003 07:27 AM

Excellent post.

AKA_Monet 11-26-2003 03:46 PM

I'm just shocked that Kitso would passionately make such a post like this...

What is going on Kitso?

An Epiphany?

ADqtPiMel 12-03-2003 03:07 PM

AXO_MOM, I agree with you 100%. I was just repeating what I had been told, I never said that I agreed with it. I'm not one of the Miami kids you'll find running around in a shirt that says "Redskins Forever" :)

wreckingcrew 12-04-2003 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
I'm just shocked that Kitso would passionately make such a post like this...

What is going on Kitso?

An Epiphany?

LOL

I'm not the all fluff poster or close minded conservative that many see me to be on here.

Working up here on the reservation and learning more about my own Native American heritage has just led me to start to question the position of NA's in today's America. This is an issue that i've thought about a lot and decided it'd make a good post.

Kitso
KS 361


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