Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Since you quoted me, I never said that you were trying to force your beliefs on anyone. The great thing is that you as an individual do not have that power, as neither do I. So as much as we can discuss and debate when its all said in done in the state of Massachutes gays will be giving the choice to marry. So your belief system and my belief system will continue to remain the same.
Gay marriage being wrong is one opinion that we are all entitled to have, feeling one way about gay marriage being wrong then expecting the law to agree with your opinion is another. I could care less if everybody on this board was against gay marraige as long as that opinion stayed out of the law.
As far as being judged this we agree on 100% no one is God and since their are thousands of sins, thank God we serve a God who chooses to forgive them ALL.

Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Question: Don't you have to think you're doing something wrong and repent to be forgiven?

All I have to say is this....
 

The Bible says in the book of Deuteronomy that homosexuality is an abomination, i.e. a sin. So are gay marriages immoral? To those who believe the Word of God is truth, the answer should be a firm, resounding YES! To those who question or just don't believe in God or His Word, the answer is either "no" or "it's debateable".

My answer is based on God's Word: Gay marriages are immoral, period. And that's my final answer ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

You are misunderstanding my position on gay marriage. Point blank it says it in the Bible that being homosexual should not occure. I don't disagrre with that statement at all. My position in this thread is with that being the basis for my position on homosexuality I DO NOT FEEL that that should be the rational for everybody to have to follow. If the world was full of full time practicing, Bible following Christian(who choose to be Christians) it would be fantatstic. Since its not I think that one group of peoples beliefs do not supercede others beliefs and choices. Bottom line, Christianity is a choice you are given by living in America, in other places religion is decided for you. So since we are given the oppurtunity to worship who we CHOOSE, then I think people should be respected and given the oppurtunity to marry who they choose (if the other person is an adult and consents to marrying them) without having to be forced to have that choice made for them. How would you feel if all the Christians were locked up because out country moved to Atheism? I know I wouldn't want someone making decisons for me, and I have to suffer because I do not agree.

Re: actually...
 

MaMaBuddha, great to see your name again. My favorite old school poster. I hope life is treating you great.

I agree with WONDERFUL08 in that the Constitution guarantees us all the "pursuit of happiness" and gays deserve "equal protection" under the law. Civil marriages should be recognized as legit and equal under the law as heterosexual marriage.

Judeo/Christian theology should not supercede constitutional law. But LoveSpell is right in this respect, her opinion is as valid as anyone else's even if it is not trendy or popular to have standards. Somehow it has become offensive to actually stand for something.

My thoughts...
 

- Lovespell, I respect your opinion. But quite frankly, your fervor and zeal against homosexuality is a little frightening. Do you have something personal against gay people? You post very sketchy research that links homosexuality to inhuman acts as if heterosexual people do not indulge in the same thing. The justification for your belief is eerily similar to that of the people who advocated lynching and eugenics. No, I am not saying you advocate these things. I am saying that your REASONING sounds very similar.

- Do y'all know how long homosexuality has been around? As far as I can tell, human being still populate the earth and we are having no shortage of reproduction.

- I hate it when I advocate something like gay marraige and get labeled "bleeding heart," "radical," (among other less than nice things). To those who are lamenting being called homophobic, guess what? Y'all are some of the same ones who denounce the opposing beliefs and waggle a condescending finger at the non-religious folks.

- Can someone please explain to me how homosexuality is in any way similar to necrophelia or bestiality? Thanks in advance.

- So I guess that 5 people now make up an accurate enough sample size to determine for the ENTIRE gay population whether or not homosexualiy is a choice? Well in that case, my SIX friends who were born gay cancel yours out.

- The reason Wonderful1908 asked to provide a non-Christian reason why gay marraiges should be outlawed is that IDEALLY the law should not be based on religion. So if someone can come up with a good, secular reason why gay marraige is wrong, that'd be great. So far all I have seen are reasons that are STILL based in religion and very questionable research.

- Everyone who believes that homosexuality is a choice is HETEROSEXUAL. Kinda makes you think, huh.

Re: Re: actually...
 

EXACTLY!! Librasould remarked that my ferver was frightening... No whats frightening is this world in 20 years. :eek:

Re: My thoughts...
 

I've pretty much answered alll that you ask here if you read my earlier posts. My purpose is .not to argue or convince you to agree with me...but to say with all my "fervor and zeal" where I stand. If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything. We'll all deal with our own personal "views" down the line..in some way or another.

Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

People were saying the same thing 20 years ago...and 20 years before that...and 20 years before that. We are still here.

Like I said I respect your right to have an opinion, but posting research indicates that you are either trying to sway another's opinion or somehow seeking validation for your own. Either way, your opinion still scares me, just as I am sure mine scares you.

Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

The only thing I fear is God! Someone's opinion could hardly scare, intimidate or put fear into me! I'm too strong for that. I did say that I am scared for the road society is going down.

You're reading into what I'm saying instead of hearing whatI'm saying. I've said several times that we will all have to answer for our own actions. If you think I need validation for how I feel....think again sweetie. :cool:

I would just like to take the time to ride on the coattails of everything that librasoul wrote in the previous post. Therefore I don't have to repeat any of it since it was very well put the first time. Anyhoo, I would like to point out to all the religious fanatics out there that "he who is without sin, cast the first stone". And even if you try that, you might just break your own window. Isn't it true that in Christianity no sin is above the other? So those out there stealing, lying, cheating, etc are in the same boat (or a similar one if you can't stand being in the same space as a homosexual).

I also wanted to point out that putting homosexuality and beastiality (sp?) in the same sentence is an eerie reminder of those "special" white people who would refer to Af Americans as "monkeys" or just "animals" in reference to interracial relationships. Wouldn't that make it a form of beastiality? Just a thought......

Standing up for your beliefs makes you a religious fanatic? :confused: And honestly when you blanketly use "he who is without sin, cast the first stone", you are essentially saying that having a belief that is different from someone else is the same as "judging" that other person. It's not.

I'll be happy to explain the meaning behind "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" for those that want to know more.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

So you think that legalizing gay marraige will bring about the apocalypse?

You are right, we do all have to answer for our own actions. That being said, why are you worried whether or not a homosexual wants to marry? How does that directly affect you?

And all research is is a tool to validate someone's belief (better known as a hypothesis). If no one needed validation for what they believed there would be no research.

The fact is, as UDZeta said, not everyone believes that homosexuality is a sin or an abomination or whatever. Unfortunatley, those that do are preventing people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together from doing so. That is why there is a difference, and that is why people who hold that belief are seen as oppressive.

I think when someone says "he who is without sin..." they really mean that one sin is not greater than the other in the eyes of the Lord. So therefore if you are engaging in premarital sex, who are you to condemn homosexuality? It is not criticizing your BELIEF, rather the hypocrisy it includes. (Honeykiss, not directed to you personally, I mean "you" in the general sense.)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

I'm not going to argue with you hun... Asking me why I'm worrying about this or that...and how something is going to be directed to me is not only being argumentative...but you're not paying attention to what I've already said NUMEROUS times in earlier posts. Do what you want...God is OUR judge. You can take your complaints, etc to him.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Oh, I know Librasoul22. Ita all about discussion and not attacks. :)

When Jesus used that statement (when the men were stoning the whore), it was because those men were committing sin iin their own personal lives and were unrepent. (some even with her). It was not because no one should ever be vocal enough to say when something is not right or is wrong.

Therefore "He who is without sin..." is not a blanket statement that should be used to overlook wrong behaviors in others, but a call for us to "discerning" rather than negative or critical.

In a real life example, let's say you were married :D and I find out you are having an affair with someone and I call you on it. It is not wrong nor am I judging you if my motives are out of concern for you (and to see you do the right thing by your marriage).

However, it is wrong if I call you on it simply for selfish reasons such as jealousy (or because I want to see your marriage ruined, or to gossip or spread rumours about you,etc.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, back to gay marriages. I still say there should be no federal classification of "married" as it relates to those that are "single". Marriage is a religious institution with a religious foundation. Marriage was not created so that two people could be put on an insurance policy.

By eliminating any federal acknowledgment or distinction, then this discussion will be over. Private companies or hospitals can longer make "spousal requirements". There will abe no need to file for a marriage liscense or go to divorce court. No seperate taxes rates or marriage penalty.

So what's wrong with this solution?:confused: I know t may not be as fun to argue over, but still. :cool:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Ok, I have to disagree here. I don't believe marriage is a religious institution. So many different cultures and religions use the term marriage to define a union between two people.

Marriage is based on economics and was intended to maintain a stable society. If there was no such thing as marriage people would be running around with anyone with two feet and a heartbeat, children would be uncared for because no one would take responisbility for their offspring. Marriage is an economical union because two people joing their assest together make for more. Why do you think so many culture used and still use doweries?
It's just easier to enter into this kinds of union with someone you love.

Maybe I'm just being cynical. But if marriage was a religious institution people who were not religious would not get married.

I believe in God, but not in organized religion. If supporting the right for homosexuals to enter into a union will condemn me to hell so be it. Far be it for to tell anyone they cannot be together.

Hell, I think we should all be gay. The world would be a lot nicer and more colour coordinated :D

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Ok, back to gay marriages. I still say there should be no federal classification of "married" as it relates to those that are "single". Marriage is a religious institution with a religious foundation.


Marriage isn't necessarily a relgious institution for everyone. Couples consisting of one man and one woman are legally married daily in court houses with no mention of God anywhere.

The whole idea of marriage was created in the US for economic reasons?

Sure, some people have and still are adding their own "spice" to it (requiring dowries and such) , but it was not used nor created for economic reasons. We may however have turned it that.

I said the IDEA of marriage is religious in nature, not WHERE you get married makes it religious in nature. I can't speak exactly as to what is said during a courthouse wedding since I have only attended one and yes, God was mentioned.

What I don't understand that if some are so determine to have a seperation of church and state, why should we not get rid of the "married" classification? This is something that is specifically mentioned in throughout the Bible and is practiced within Biblical guidelines.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Exactly.

Marriage, legally, is a social and economic, not religious, institution. If we are going to start deciding who can and cannot be married based on religious reasons, there would a whole lot more single people in this country. If two drunken gamblers can legally marry in Las Vegas, only to divorce one week later, then a gay couple who loves each other should be able to marry, as well. There should be no differentiation between the two when it comes to the laws of this country.

[Sidebar]
Why is it that people always refer back to good ol' "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" when defending their own stances. Just because I disagree with you (you, in the general sense, not anyone in particular) on an issue does not mean that I do not stand for something or that I don't have my own moral, ethical, and religious beliefs. All it means is that we disagree.
[/Sidebar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

I never stated that we should decide who can and can not get married nor did I state that where you get married should be a factor.

I'm saying that we should get rid of of marriage and its meaning as it related to grouping, special priviledges, etc. (as it relates to the grouping of people in terms of married vs single). Even if we got rid of the classification, if would not affect WHERE people get "married".

@ HoneyKiss

I totally understand your point of view on marriage. My post was intended to restate what I feel is the real basis of this argument. My point is that because legal marriage is not a religious institution, religious arguments against gay marriage should not be considered. I included the reference to Las Vegas as an example of legal marriages that are also counter to most religious beliefs.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

Well believe it or not, i am not trying to argue with you, simply trying to foster a discussion as you requested. I am asking you honest questions in order to better understand your point of view, but if you feel uncomfortable answering that is fine.

Honeykiss, I comepletely understand where you are coming from now, thank you for clarifying.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

IT doesn't have anything to do with being uncomfortable with answering...that is shown in the many times I've posted on this subject. But you ask questions that i've answered several times on this thread. The answers to your questions are stated several times in my previous posts..

And to ClassyLady your lil sidebar of "why do people say if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything" i guess was directed at me since I'm the one who said it....don't take the comment so personal...it was a general comment.

I am very proud and steadfast in my views and I don't back down just because my views are unpopular or people disagree with me. Actually....when the majority disagrees with me...in this morally corrupt society....that's usually a good thing. :cool:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

My post as well was a general comment. I clearly stated that it was not directed at any one individual since the statement I was referring to was made more than once by more than one person.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

No one is asking you to "back down." I was simply asking for clarification because maybe I wasn't fully comprehending what you were trying to say. Sometimes I can be very dense and need things explained to me a variety of ways before I can really understand someone's point of view. Before completely writing you off, I would rather havea clear understanding of exactly what you mean.

My question to you is, do you consider yourself not to be morally corrupt? Again, this is not a personal attack so there is really no need to get defensive, just trying to see where you are coming from.

Re: Re: actually...
 

good to see you also, doggystyles.

i always enjoy a good conversation and views that are different then my own. i am a little tired and weary of the gay and marriage topics, because they are age old topics.

being a african american lesbian in society is hard as it is. every one has a right to their opinions. i try not to shove my opinions down anyone's throat whether they are considered moral or not.

i will hold my comments and this subject, because honestly i con not think of anything to say. :)


btw....me and the pooch are enjoying a simple honeymoon in the carribean. :D

Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

LMAO!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually...
 

I'm not going to get into what I "personally" consider myself..that's irrelevant. I've stated my views on the subject..and as I said..we all have to answer for what we choose to do in our lives PERIOD.

My goodness a girl goes away to Lousiana for a weekend and this topic gets hotter. I have already said what have to say, but I am thankful that we can debate this topic and the meaning of marriage, freely and make a CHOICE about our opinions. Which is a benefit of living in a society were choice is an option and not a luxury.:cool:

That is indeed Wonderful...Wonderful1908

Hope you enjoyed Louisiana ;)

Gay marriages
 

On this topic the question was are gay marriages immoral....if you think it about no religion supports homosexuality nor should they. Homosexuals who push for gay marriages have a bigger agenda, which is to undermine the institution of marriages by redifining what marriage is. I agree w/lovespell if this is allowed what foolishness will follow a grown man wanting to marry his 7 year old daughter or worst his 7 year old son as long as everyone is happy. Equating being gay to black is asinine and is a slap in the face for those blacks who suffered so much during slavery.

Re: Gay marriages
 

First of all welcome to GC frat ;)

And secondly..be careful when agreeing with me...when you take any type of moral stand i.e. aligning yourself with biblical principles over secular principles...you get bashed for it. But I'm sure you can handle it...just as i hold my own:D

Gay marriages
 

Thanks for the welcome, I'm sure there will be some backlash but.....I'm ready and even though I'm new I got your back as long as your for what's right.

Re: Re: Gay marriages
 

I read this thread for a fourth time and still cannot see where anyone has been bashed. I suppose for the purposes of this thread "bash" now means "to disagree with" in which case :( because I have been bashed too.

AXE, can you please explain how being gay is different than being black (no one is comparing the past struggles, we all know those are drastically different).

Gay marriages
 

(1) You can't hide not being black when it's not advantageous to you

(2) In no religion is being black a sin.

(3) One can go to countries that are predominatly black

(4) You can't experiment w/ being black...you just don't figure this out after being married for 10 years.

(5) When your stopped by the police on a dark night .......there is no don't ask don't tell policy......he already knows.

Re: Gay marriages
 

Good points. I would, however, take exception to number 2. Some people use the Bible to prove their belief that blacks are inferior (i.e. the KKK, who base their beliefs on Christian ideals).

gay marriages
 

But remember the klan played w/the bible not teaching all the word....like not teaching of Isreal being led out of slavery. The slave owners and the klan knew if this was taught then all would know that slavery was wrong and the blacks would maybe liken their plight to that of Isreal.....God's choosen people...image the fuss on the ole plantation.

Re: gay marriages
 

While I'm not condoning the behaviour of the KKK. Every Christian denomination has "played" with the bible in some way in order to teach their beliefs/interpretations to their congregations.