The raping in South Africa is at a very bad endemic. One of the problem is the myth that if one have sex with a virgin, one can be cure of hiv/aids. Thank God that this has been aggresively fought by both the government (though that worthless Minister of Health is making it worst) and NGOs. I've just read that South Africa has broken the record in rape. Another problem is that the police who worked in the rape arena are greatly underfunded and undermanned. I have a friend who works in child protection unit, and she is handling over 500 cases. Then there is the suburbs of Durbanville, which is about 15 minutes from Cape Town, which only have 3 police cars to patrol this massive area. damn, i went on a rant again.

I'm sorry rudy, but I do have to comment on a few things you said that are just absurd to me. Every country has its f****d up culture..and this culture is not any less corrupted as those "fundamentalist islamic countries" you are talking about.

I too lived in an islamic country in africa, and to be honest, people over here and over there behave the exact same way...just with different type of clothing and language.

What I am saying is..there is no denying that women are getting gang-raped..but before you decide to target one group of people...take a look at whats going on in other parts of the world.....Gang-rapes happen everywhere.....and do you know who are the cause of it all....deliquent, jevenile boys....and the Criminal Justice system that only allows them to serve a 5 year sentence for rape charge...

In the countries I have lived in, no one EVER considered rape acceptable....and if they say they are...its 99.99999% coming from a male...so they do not speak for the women in that specific culture.

I don't believe that racist bullcrap you are serving people here when you say that christians don't do the same atrocities...take a look at hitler :-) and what about all those holy priests that raped all those little boys? so please, rudyy, you do not want to make ignorant comments like that here ok...

You're retarded and I honestly don't feel like showing you why you're retarded ok Opi?

-Rudey
--Yeah Sudan also deals in the slave trade, but hey let's not generalize.

Oh I forgot to add something else:

There is a growing movement of anti-islamic and anti-immigrant feelings in Europe (non-muslims are not aware of this obviously)...So an article like this would be typical in countries like the netherlands, germany and especially france....



Ruddy, and all you can say is, I'm retarded? lol that's hilarious, dude!

This is your 'thesis'. let's see how you go about proving it for us.

YAY! anecdotal evidence . . . useless in an argument. Not to mention that it is an observation used to form an opinion which is then passed as a fact. this is the only time you address the original point, and it doesn't really do you any good.

Gang rapes do happen everywhere, but the point here was examining the sheer number of these brutal attacks in one subset of a culture, then looking at the reasons for it.

One reason that I cannot identify with: "delinquent, jevenile[sic] boys". That's probably the most shallow response I've ever heard. Are the boys born delinquent? I'd imagine not - perhaps it's some pernicious societal influence? well, there's not much more proof for that, but at least it examines the actual roots of the problem, instead of saying the equivalent of "There's bad apples in every bunch!"

unless you have some sort of accurate population survey information, this whole paragraph means nothing. Also this doesn't help your thesis in the slightest. Even if the same number of people speak out against rape, obviously it is a larger part of the culture in these environments, which seems to kick your thesis in the junk.

whoa nelly, a strawman argument! also this is a key example of the fallacy of the complex question, and if you can't see why, then we can just agree to disagree and move on.

also, one of the most interesting forensics lessons I've ever heard given stated that if you ever have to resort to extreme examples such as Hitler, you're probably not proving your point. Just saying.

KSig RC, I <3 you right now.

You too, "Ruddy."

Just don't generalize.

-Ruddy
--That's so 2002.

KSig,

I didn't know I was writing an essay here..
Rudy was obviously attacking african and muslim immigrants in europe..and I am not here defending them or even talking about the particular article but I think the comments that rudy made were ignorant and downright racist....

Rudy,

I agree with you..."just don't generalize"...not everyone Muslim believes in stoning..and rape is definately not allowed in the islamic religion..so don't make it seem like its a "muslim-thing"

Once again, you're retarded. You playing the racism card gets people not to take you seriously the next time.

Rob pretty much told you why you were wrong because I didn't feel like typing it out because I knew you were r-e-t-a-r-d-e-d and would say something back that didn't answer his comments.

-Rudey
--And damn it can you just seriously look at my username and figure out how to spell it right next time?? Actually just don't let there be a next time and we'll be cool.

uhmm, ok! I didn't know I was dealing with a child here.

Rudy, you are weak...the comments you made were r-a-c-i-s-t (and If you say I am dealing the racism card..then I must be right)...If the comments you made were not racist and overgeneralising an entire religion ...then WHY in the world would I be offended? I have no reason to...but I feel the comments you did make sounded like a personal attack to my religion. So I will call you out on it..whether you like it or not.

Peace the F* out!

In other words you can't come up with an answer so you're retarded?

-Rudey
--Peace and don't let the syndrome get you down!

back to the topic!

i just can't fathom why any person would want to have sex with a BABY! my god. i just can't understand how that could be appealing. if they need to stick themselves into something use a freaking bottle or hole in the ground. good lord. or better yet--find a girlfriend! i'm sure that would be a lot more satisfying

If Rudey and I both found flaws in your argument, then perhaps . . . you're not . . . making any sense.

here's your first task on the road to respectability in your argument:

WHY is what Rudey stated racist?

In order to answer this question, I'm going to have to ask you to use an accurate definition of racism, something along the lines of "abasement of a person or a group of people due to racial differences". Which race is being abased? "Muslim" is not a race, any more than "Christian" or "Zoroastrian" is a race.

KPSIG once again you show what metal you are made of!:)


Once again Rudolpho (Rudey) you show what an Ass you are!:(

Dont you get it? Seem to be intelligente but prove so many times that you are not!:rolleyes:

You post like a piece cow dung! For you you Moroon, S**T! in case you did not under stand! What a Puke you have seem to have become!:eek:

A Child can be trained, but you are beyond that.:eek:

Tom does this rape conversation hit a little too close to home?

-Rudey
--You don't have a record do you?

Ksig,

Ok...Racist and PREJUDICED...happy?

And you still don't get the point of why I am upset with what rudy said..so I am not going to repeat myself!!

Jesus Christ is the only way to go. Otherwise you're going to hell and nobody will save you child.

-Rudey
--It's Rudey with an "e" and not 2 "d"s oh illiterate one who can't read or spell.

I love it when monotheists fight with each other. It just keeps proving I'm right.

ooooooooooooohhh. is this a religious debate now?

Well only if you have something retarded to say. Heaven forbid I say anything along the lines that Arab society has had its growth retarded in almost a million and one ways. That would be racist and Ruddy/Rudy/Rudey would get some immigrant spouting off a speech like she's Sean Penn.

-Rudey

Well, to be honest, you cannot judge the islamic religion by basing on the turmoil in the Mid-East right now. That is not Islam. I like religious debates...

How can you add an element to your basis when you couldn't define a direct position against Rudey's (with the e) so-called "racist" stance?

Trust me here, your argument is flawed to no end and you dig yourself deeper by simply adding to it without really defending your position.

Edited because I made a boo-boo.

Well to be honest, I'm not judging Islamic religion and i didn't bring up any turmoil.

I mean let's not generalize when your economies have shrunk, your people can't vote, your women are second class citizens, dictators cut your head off and torture you, you actively participate in the slave trade.

-Rudey
--Yeah today I think I'm going to go and actively trade on some middle eastern market...haha that was funny.

I wasn't trying to start anything with you, I just skimmed the former posts and basically thought that was the theme of the thread at this point. It seemed everyone was mad at you for saying something about Islam... I just wanted in on the debate, thats all. I guess I am off key in here.

As opposed to a culture that actively promoted the exploitation or marginalization of peoples of other race, colour or creed; a culture that by itself supports the drug industry worldwide; a culture that is ethnocentric that it will never give any other culture or religion a fair and equal judgement; and a culture that decries the oppression of ideas, free speech, and the resriction of other freedoms, but is happy to inflict this on others and shockingly themselves.


You have failed to examine the issues behind the article, then jumped to a conclusion that most fitted your bias.... congradulations you could be a Fox reporter:rolleyes:

In France there is a undercurrent of racial predudice, or more acurately a anti-immigrant bias; the original article goes into depth exploring this issue, and why this bias precluded police investigation and why the community felt that even if they went to the police it would only make things worse.

Now did my post piss-you off?

Well I generalized and made use of sterotypes too..... now consider how your sterotypical and racist views made others feel. Grow-up, expand your mind to include more than a narrow view of the world, and use the education that hopefully you earned.

Also, I don't really know what I think about the whole issue yet, but on a specific point...

Just to let you know, there are thousands of slaves in the US today. And by slave I don't mean someone working for crappy wage, I mean human beings who are bought and sold by and for American citizens IN America.

Don't take this as sarcasm, I really do want to know---

What do you mean by slaves??? Are we talking people that clean houses, do labor, or in a more figurative sense?


ETA: In my Female history class last year the teacher was trying to convince us that women that are secretaries, maids, or cooks are slaves. I hope that's not what you meant.

<sniff> <sniff> I smell something, do y'all?

Smells like a big fat case of Liberal Hyperbole.

Kitso
KS 361 slaves that if are in the US, i'll eat

As in the Sudan is a very active participent in the slave trade.

-Rudey
--Not secretaries because that'd mean there were offices and women were allowed to work.

Honestly go back to the military because I can't see a use for your intellectual talents anywhere outside of an environment where people tell you what to do.

Everything you said is complete crap. Please stop talking to me because you are an idiot and I haven't seen you post one intelligent thing. Honestly you even make me hate Canadians and that's hard because they don't do anything to anyone except eskimos.

-Rudey
--I am putting you on ignore now so feel free to respond and not have me read it.

I never actually weighed in with my opinion (which I know most of you don't want, but oh well.......)

To be honest I've read over all this trying to ignore the cries of racism and stereotyping b/c I think a lot of times those accusations get in the way of the true discussion. A lot of times, they're founded, as well, which is why I kind of leave them out of my own opinion.

A big part of Rudey's original point (let me know if I'm wrong, sir) was that little kids, BABIES, for christ sakes, are getting raped overseas. No one is saying that it never happens here, no one is saying that its all because they're Muslim (the example in Africa is one more place). What I think is kind of undeniable is that it happens a lot there, almost like its a trend.

You cannot tell me that raping babies is a trend in the U.S.. There are a lot of other countries that do not give women half as many rights as we have here. In some ways, that lack of respect trickles down the chain and that's what you wind up with. Whether that lack of respect comes from government, religion, or another force is a totally different subject.

**let the flames begin**

While some idiots can't think and like to pretend they're smart, the original point is that women are treated badly and among items in that treatment is rape. And then afterwards the women will be shunned by their family and often executed (outside of France of course). The neighborhood will pretty much blame it on the women. And then idiots try to tell you "we don't know what's good for them" or "it's a different culture".

-Rudey

Oh Kitso, you really need to start reading more my friend, and no, Scholastic doesn't count. Do a simple search on google

Slaves as in people who are house servants, field workers, and sex slaves. Does no one know about this? There was a huge article about it in National Geographic not too long ago. It's underground, not endorsed by the government, but it's very hard for authorities to infiltrate the slave trade. It often involves teen runaways and immigrants. What often happens is that illegal immigrants are promised jobs, and are instead forced to work for nothing, sometimes in fields, sometimes in a family's home. Sometimes destitute families are "loaned" a large amount of money with huge interest, which they can work to "pay back," but of course the debt is never paid and is instead passed on to their children. And then there are the young girls, who are enticed into working as prostitutes, and become the property of the pimps, who do not pay them but instead buy them what they "need', and can sell them to other pimps. Sometimes families sell their children themselves.

In other countries children are sold to factories, and the other examples I used also exist. Slavery exists in every single country in the world today. It is not a problem of the past for anyone.

On that, I do agree, just as it's stupid to focus only on the bad, it's stupid to ignore the bad that does exist. Islam is not evil, the Middle East is not an inherently "bad" place, however, this particular issue is an awful one, and should not be condoned. Culture is not an excuse. It's not an excuse anywhere. That should be the focus of the discussion. Rape is not acceptable, I don't care if an entire population endorses it as a part of tradition, it's still wrong.

The point is that the validity of culture ANYwhere, including here, does not extend to the abuse of other human beings.

Yes and trying to skirt around the issue by saying don't generalize because the US has problems does nothing.

-Rudey
--And while the US has problems - it doesn't to the extent of most other countries. People need to deal with that.

Yes, understood. Does that make those problems less valid? Just because I'm relatively better off here than there doesn't mean that things here shouldn't be improved. Would you stab someone in the leg and then in court argue, "yeah, but I didn't kill anyone, you should be thanking me, you were lucky!"

But we're moving off the point again.

Point = rape is awful, there is NO excuse.

Come on man, Americans are the cause of everything bad in this world.


If we step in we are to blame somehow.

If we stay out we are to blame for not doing anything.

Then again some people on this board love to get their shots in at the American Gov't or the American culture themselves.

I find it hard to believe they would do so while being a member of an organization that was founded in such a culture, created with American views and influence.

10 points to, eh, I'll give it to Rudey.

This is the very point others seem to be promulgating, ie "You're a racist! This stuff happens in the US too!"

First, those ideas couldn't be more unrelated . . . sigh, moving on.

Second, the fact that the behavior is mirrored other places does not serve to excuse it in any one place, nor does it make it any more ripe for the palate, nor does it remove the fact that basic human rights are not available to a HUGE segment of the population. I realize this works in reverse, as well, but I feel like that part of this paragraph will go ignored.

Third, the fact that the behavior is far more prevalent in, and is in fact ingrained in the belief structure of, the culture is what is being examined here. No one said that all Muslims should be raped so they can see what their women feel like, or any other such intense drivel.

Also, no one claimed all who practice Islam are rapists.

In fact, this has nothing to do with Islam as a practice, as that is a FRIGGING RELIGION, and we're talking about cultural abnormalities.

So let's discuss from there.

So your pissed off, because what I said, and you felt it was complete crap.... well that's why I was pissed off with your comments.

You seem to think that rape is a culturally determined thing, but in fact it crosses cultures and isn't about the sex (except for a small percentage). Rape is about control, humiliation, or anger. Every culture is guilty of having segements of it that have commited rape that was accepted, Muslims, Christians, Americans, Canadians, Black, White....... What I object to is your juvenile and reprehensible tendence to reduce things to a simple black or white issue, good or evil, right or wrong.... guess what in the real world most issues fall in the grey middle ground and aren't as simple as you make them sound.

As for putting me on ignore.... you just proved one of my earlier points of not accepting, hearing, or considering ideas or opinions that fall outside your narrow view. I don't close off myself to other opinions because they might be right, or a least let me see another facet of an argument.... maybe you should too.