Is it Pcness or is it just respect for someone who is different than you? Do you hate that you have to actually THINK about what you say before you say it? :rolleyes:

believe me, i'm never out to purposely offend anyone. that's not my style. i just can't stand how everyone is so ready to jump on someone because they are "offended". yes, fine, be offended, but don't immediately claim racism, prejudice, hatred, supremacy, etc. sometimes people say and do things and don't realize how their actions affect other people. instead of automatically shouting and arguing, just take a step back and breathe.

i respect people. i think about their feelings. but i think people nowadays are too eager to cry foul.

Thank you.

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it's not valid. It just means you haven't put enough thought into it to figure things out.

I would also like to ditto what IvySpice said. It's not a double standard because they are two totally different situations. How many more times does this need to be repeated?

Maybe, just maybe you aren't able to understand why people are offended or even feel discriminated against or belittled because you don't have to live the life of a minority from day to day. It is easier not to understand the pain a person feels when their race/ethnicity is belittled when you don't personally have to deal with those feelings. Many people want to believe that racism is a thing of the past but unfortunately it is NOT and those of us who have to deal with blatant racism on a daily basis may recognize it a little more easily. You are right, sometimes people do say things and don't realize how those things will not affect others. Just because they don't realize they are being a bigot doesn't make comments any less bigoted. I have personally dealt with people who I know for a fact didn't realize they were being completely insulting, and yes I did take a step back and breathe, but then I took them to the side and told them they were offensive. I believe if you truly respect the feelings of others you might be a little bit more willing to put yourself into their shoes instead of viewing things from your own point of view. Again, I stress don't think of it as being PC, just stop and think before you speak and ask yourself "If I was xxxx how would that make me feel". It isn't about being PC, it's about showing a little common courtesy and respect for your fellow man.

Um, that is not a very cool thing to say and almost 'racist,' eh? Judging the quality of someone's ethnicity by their last name.... ;)

Marc M. IS Latino--he was born & raised in Puerto Rico.

I go to Duke.

The Sigma Chis are nice guys and it's a shame that while a lot of the other frat chapters on campus have just as 'offensive' party themes, the SigChis were singled out sort of.

The ATOs had their traditional Ghetto Fabulous party tonight, but of course renamed it (b/c of the Sigma Chi debacle) "Rapper's Delight"--of course it still WAS Ghetto Fabulous (I was there). We're all wondering if the KA formal will still be called Old South (which it has been since the Alpha Phi chapter started in 1903 here at Duke). Several sororities get together & have a party called "White Trash" every year but I think that might be different this year too....hmmmm....

P.S. It's not really that big of a deal here. In fact, all of ten people showed up for the "protest" or "demonstration" or whatever the media's been calling it. And no one is getting in trouble and no one is "outraged"--at least not really anyone I've talked to. The media has blown this out of proportion!

You know GC...there's always someone (usually the same people) who just don't get it. EVERYTHING is a PC issue. ;)

may, just maybe you know NOTHING about me or my life. so don't make assumptions or try to make me see the "error :rolleyes: of my ways". i don't appreciate it.

i refuse to watch EVERYTHING i say or do because i MAY offend someone. good lord.

Sincere question
 

I've always wondered: Why do NPC/IFC groups tend to have theme parties centered around ethnic minority stereotyping? Is it not as much fun to just show up as you want and have a good time?

I've never been to or even seen a NPHC group have a 'Potato Famine Party' where we dress up as drunk Irish people in rags and the entrance 'code word' is to beg for food. Oh, I know, maybe because we have CLASS and respect the struggles of others!!!! And we know that you don't have to make fun of a group to have a good time!!!

For me, a good NPHC party is one where the DJ knows to play the best music and no matter who is sponsoring the party, all groups have a chance to get out there and strut.

Re: Sincere question
 

I think a few things are factors:

* Tradition: probably had these types of parties for YEARS and feel there is nothing wrong with keeping them going. Particularly if they know and believe that they themselves as individuals are not racist

*Lack of diversity in the NPC/IFC system: I've stated it before. Just because Sally likes soccer, but Cindy likes acting, that doesn't make you a diverse chapter. "Diversity" has become so overused that it's lost its true meaning.

*Lack of proper intercultural education: If lil' Johnny comes to college with his only exposure to African American culture having been Yo MTV Raps (Lord, is that still on?), BET, and bling-bling videos, he's likely to not have any TRUE understanding of the AA community as a whole. He is basing his knowledge on assumptions and media conceptualization...

*Lack of sensitivity: Race is just not the predominately relevant, socially pressing topic of the moment for college students right now...So there's no need to educate. Hip-hop/R&B is embraced by all cultures now, so there is an assumption again that they have nothing to "fix" in their mindset

*One more possibility: I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that maybe, possibly, they mean it as an homage to the culture? And I don't mean these blatantly ignorant examples...I mean other parties that have been held. I don't WANT to think that the sisters/brothers of these chapters are sitting around thinking/saying, "Hmm, what race haven't we insulted? Hmm, I know! We can make fun of Mexicans this time!" Their actions, as uneducated as they are, may not have been derived from or for impure, vicious thoughts or intentions

It's always just seemed to me that poor whites are the only group that everyone feels okay about criticizing--and that goes for rich as well as poor, black as well as white. They are the last group to be impacted by the PC movement.

I guess that's why it's okay to have a "White Trash Bash" and not a "Ghetto Fab Ball." :rolleyes:

edited to sufficiently show sarcasm and my belief that all forms of discrimination and denigration, including against those of different socioeconomic status, are wrong.

Flashback to the Seinfeld "Donna Chang" episode. ;)

And yes, for a lot of kids in the boonies (I was one) the only exposure they have to blacks IS music videos or other blacks in the media. If that's the only image that keeps getting put out, people will start to believe it.

FWIW during my whole time in college, I NEVER attended (or heard of anyone holding) a mixer or party whose theme had anything to do with "ethnic minority stereotyping" so please don't assume everyone does this.

No, not EVERYONE, but, I think it can be agreed that the ethnic stereotyping parties are more common among NPC/IFC groups.

No, it is not okay. And if you notice it is the NPC/IFC groups that are having the "White Trash Bash", not NPHC. Like I said, NPHC orgs don't need to denigrate a group of people to justify a party.

The problem I have with the White Trash / Ghetto Fab parties is that they are poking fun at people of a certain (lower) economic group. Why is that?

I was being sarcastic. I think it's terribly mean and snobby to have something that denigrates people based on socioeconomic status, but I think I understand why it's accepted at some college campuses.

They're just as guilty....

Everyone, no matter their ethnicity, is capable of prejudice.

I think people object to pimps & hoes more because of how it makes the sorority look or because it's promoting males in a position of power over females. I've never heard of the pimp lobby voicing a protest. :p

Do whatever you feel as right. As long as you can live with the way YOU choose to treat others then that is on you. Just be prepared to deal with ALL of the consequences of those actions. IWe all have to remember that values like class, respect, and courtesy are not important to all.
:)

Have a great day.

Re: Re: Sincere question
 

Sigmadiva, I've often wondered the same thing.

Sigmagrrl, good post.

Just out of curiosity, DZ is having a Toga Party mixer with Pi Kappa Phi in a couple of weeks. Do you think we'll offend anybody with that one?
</joke, albeit a bad one>;)

Only if you don't wear undies and it is a windy day.....:p

I still think it is bad. All of the participants are still making fun of a certain economic status. And I think that this may be part of the reason for such a negative attitude about greek life on many campuses. I've read posts on here from greeks at schools where the top campus administrators are doing what they can to remove greek life from campus. Maybe this is why. Schools want all students to feel welcome and comfortable. If you have groups of orgs that seem to consistently have parties where they consider a lower economic status a joke, then that does not represent the campus well. Poor representation of a campus may mean that bright-eyed high school seniors are less likely to consider going to that school. Education is a big business and schools don't want to hurt their chances of getting as much money as they can. The more students you have (or can hold) the more money the school gets from local, state and federal governments and tuition.


Just think, if you came from a financially struggling family that was considered 'White Trash' when you were growing up and now you are lucky enough to afford college by having a dozen part-time jobs and while at college you saw all these greeks at a 'White Trash' party, how would you feel about greeks? How would you feel about a school that supports this type of behaivor?

ROTFLMAO! :D

Ok, sorry, I just had a mental image of about 40 DZ's walking across the parking lot in the middle of a monsoon with nothing on but a sheet and high heels. I'm sure someone would definitely be offended...and I can't say that I'd blame them, LOL! (Yes, I have kind of a weird sense of humor.) :p

</unhijack>

I'm reminded of a song, "Let your true colors come shining through" . Yours are pretty bold and bright right now.

Since it's a non-sorority discussion, please remove my letters from this post.

Jeeze H Christ!:(

Hell, we are all minoritys some where in this world!:rolleyes:

Hell, talk about a Minority, White Male, single, mature to ripe, and own a small business! Socio-economically deprived well, I guess so since I make $50.00 a week being an entrap-a-manure.:(

Does anyone read History or know anything about it? Does anyone watch or read about the News?

I am white, ergo, I hate all blacks or asians!

I am Anglo, I hate Greeks, Italians, Germans etal! Did not say French, I just ignor them!:D

When you get your ethnaticy out of your system and find out that you prove you self to all or any people, then you find your true worth!

I am sure Yolanda, Lativa, Kitso or who ever found me Racist was Right. I hate everybody! It seems the most who get upset, promote racism harder. Damn, I wish I could get Brother Rodney on this site! He hates stupidity no matter what Race, he deals with Kids, Bad Kids! The ones who may be leading our Country!:eek:

that's right...i keep forgetting how you somehow have the innate ability to know someone through their posts:rolleyes:

you know nothing about me. i'm pissed she brought MY symphony into this discussion

and i'm sure that 24-7 you are a perfect example of your fraterinity's or whatever the hell PMA simfonia is, ideals?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I know the Creed of Sigma Nu, and you know what, there are days i live it to a T, and there are days i don't. But in my eyes, as long as i'm striving to live it the MAJORITY of my days, i'll be alright.

Kitso
KS 361 times there's only one person i know who lived a perfect life, and he died on a cross for me 2001 years ago

Every message you have posted on this topic has screamed certain things about you and your character. I don't think I have to spell it out for you. The only thing I know about you is the way you have presented yourself on this board. FYI, It's not pretty. I'm gonna let this go because I can only explain things so many times.

my apologies. you are right and i am wrong. i am an evil and bad person who always causes so much trouble on GC. i don't know how i haven't gotten kicked off yet. everything i do in my life is awful and mean to all people. i'm sorry it has taken so many posts for you to get this fact through my thick skull. i keep forgetting how well you know me. i am so sorry that i had an opinion that i expressed which didn't seem to comply with your all-worldly one. :rolleyes:

i'm over it. :D (this whole thing has been too damn funny to me! you people take this message board too freaking seriously! like every word that everyone says is just so well thought out and perfect and completely encompasses the person as a whole.) geez.

back to the topic at hand...duke...

OK, I'm not even going to go back and read the posts I missed because I'm pretty sure I'll just get angry and start this whole thing back up again, sooo . . .


I think the point of this thread was lost long ago. That being, regardless of your personal feelings on this topic, Greeks CANNOT continue to throw parties like this. How does it look for the Greek system when we decide that our desire to throw parties with whatever theme we want is more important than the fact that people are being hurt? How hard is it to just avoid parties with themes like this?

How does it look for the Greek system when even our fellow Greeks think we're being racist -- and we tell them that we don't care?

I have been downright embarassed, as a Greek, to read some of the stuff in this thread. I don't think some of y'all realize how horrible this looks for the system as a whole. And I don't want to be associated with it.

Nothing like hitting below the belt.....
 

AMEN.
Let's not act like b/c we're PC, we're always appropriate in other areas of life as well. I'm sorry, but there have been a few people in this thread, who, while they may pride themselves on being racially sensitive, have treated other people in this discussion like shit. Just b/c you ace one area of life (being sensitive to other groups) doesn't mean you're winning the manners race.

And, I have always hated the :rolleyes: face, but the excessive use of it in this thread is making me throw up. You want proof of how snotty BOTH sides have behaved??? Look for the eye rolls. Learn how to express your sentiments without being catty and grow up. (That's directed towards everyone, and no one in particular.)

Jules --

I think that is a decent point and I know I'm as guilty of it as anyone in this thread. I think things got more heated than they needed to be.

BUT

In my opinion, this is not okay. If a group of people says, "Hey, this thing that you guys did really hurt us," and you say, "I don't really care how you feel about it, I'll do what I want to do, and by the way, you're overreacting so just stop whining and shut up about it" -- that is not okay. You can't do that and still claim that you're trying to live up to the ideals of your organization, because you're not. Hurting people and being selfish are not the ideals any of our GLOs were founded upon, and the thing that blows my mind is that this is something that would be so easy to fix! Just avoid mixers with derogatory ethnic themes and we'd all be fine. Is it really that hard to do a naughty schoolgirls mixer instead of pimps and hoes?

If this was another situation apart from race, would people have reacted this way? If a fraternity was promoting negative stereotypes about women, about religion, about whatever . . . and people were getting offended, we would have blasted the fraternity for being an insult to the Greek world. Why is it different with race?

I think race is such a touchy subject in the Greek world and especially on GC that BOTH sides tend to blow things out of proportion.

This is one of those things that looks horrible for the Greek system. Because even if you (general you, not you personally :p ) don't see it as being selfish, dismissive of other people's feelings and experiences, and hurtful -- there are many outside of the Greek system (and in it!) that do. And we can't continue to call ourselves the creme de la creme of the college crop if we do things that we know are hurtful. That's why so many anti-Greeks keep citing the hypocrisy of the Greek system.

Unfortunately, because of our history, we have to be exceptionally PC -- sometimes to the extreme -- and especially when it comes to race. It's no different than our hazing or drinking rules. It's just that race is a much touchier subject than hazing or drinking.

No, I wouldn't say that I am at all. But I do try and I would hope that we all try to live by and demonstrate our fraternity's or sorority's values, and that's the point I was trying to get at here. Obviously, I did a particularly lousy job of trying to get it across.

But before I get back to it, I did say in my post that it would come off as "preachy or superior." That acknowledgment alone should have told me not to post it. My sincere apologies to all, and particularly to Jules and cash78mere. You are right -- I know nothing about anyone's life -- including their commitment to the GLO's values and how they live them out -- and I shouldn't suggest otherwise based on isolated posts.

But this is the deal as I see it -- we Greeks spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince non-Greeks on our campuses (not to mention administrations) that we are about more than parties, having a good time and, yes, elitism. We point to service and philanthropies and to the values we stand for and try to live by. (And we point to our creeds, symphonies, etc., to say "this is what they stand for and what we try to live by.")

And then, a chapter goes and throws a party with a theme that anybody smart enough to get into college ought to know is likely to offend other students on campus. And when complaints are registered, some Greeks sometimes (no one specific on GC being singled out -- I'm talking in generalities) respond with comments along the lines of "some people are just too sensitive, we can't be responsible for what some other people may find offensive." All that does is reinforce stereotypes of us, that regardless of what we say about service, values and principles, we're just about having a good time and really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

Fortunately, that does not seem to have happened at Duke. The chapter involved quickly said "we're sorry, we meant no offense" and acted like it does matter to them that someone was offended, even if no offense was intended.

And that's all I'm trying to say. Each of our fraternities and sororities have meaningful values and ideals that can make real differences in our lives and in the lives of those we come into contact with. I just think we ought to be encouraging each other to live by those values, and in so doing depriving anti-Greeks of ammunition to use against us. Unfortunately, I did a really bad job of trying to get that idea across. Again, I apologize for that.

I'll be quiet for the remainder of this thread now, much to the relief of many, I'm sure.

edited for clarity, which still may not be completely there.

Big Surprise....
 

That is why I suggested on page one that this thread should be closed. True, I have particiapted in the discussion, but it has gotten off topic and degenerated into name calling and finger pointing.

Some people need to be more sensitive. Some people need to be less sensitive.

You said it!!
~TCV