<<AlwaysDivine>> Yes, I do think that the baby should be born. I am well aware that God created us to have free will, however dear, in my opinion, God is the giver of life. I am a scientist so I know all about the reproduction, but I truly believe that God is in control of that- directly. Just to make the "free will" point is just an example of the mistakes that we make. As for the question about a 12 year loving a child...I wouldn't know because I was not a 12 year old girl made pregnant by rape, maybe one can and maybe one can't but if she can't then there are plenty of people who can.

<<Ania>> If you believe that the Bible endures through time and you read it and get to know God then it shouldn't have to say "Thou shall not have an abortion" for you to know if it's right or not. And if you read my post completely you would know that I am not judging anyone because I laid my cards on the table.

<<MidWestDiva>>I do not look down on you or anyone else who have had an abortion. I got pregnant when I was in college and sat in the doctor's office to have the procedure done. The first place that I went to was too dirty, the second was too much money, the third was clean, affordable, and close but I sat there all day waiting and the doctor was stuck at his other practice and didn't make my appointment. I considered this divine intervention and now I hate myself everytime I look at my daughter and wonder how could I have wanted to do that to her. I am not saying this to hurt you but just to let you know that I have been where you were but just made the opposite choice.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on when you said that abortion is the greatest sin. God sees all sins the same which is why I, being the person that I am, can never call anyone a sinner or look down on anyone or even point fingers, because those other fingers would be pointing right back to me.

I hope this answers some of the questions regarding my previous post. There is not much more that I can say other than we all have views from different standpoints. What I consider right others may not and there is not much that I can do about that.

We will always have differences of opinion.

ACTUALLY....I REALLY REALLY BEG TO DIFFER in reference to there being "someone who will" love the child. There are so many children WITHOUT permanent homes or parents. Children who have no one but their social worker they may see once a week. A LOT of children go unwanted and they KNOW this. So you suggest that it is better to put a child into the governmental system and potentiall neve know a realy family. Come on now. There are already So many black chiildren with no hope for adoption. Where do they go - how should they feel? Why should there be more?

Eclipse, thank you for the (((cyberhugg)))!


I'm just curious. How many of our pro-life Greekchatters condone pre-marital sex? When I say condone, I mean the Webster's Dictionary definition which is:

condone-to pardon; to forgive; to overlook.

I ask this question because a lot of times Christians (me included) pick out certain sins to crusade against, such as abortion or homosexuality. However there are many others sins that we commit every day, for whatever reason these seem to go unnoticed. I'm not trying to make anyone angry here, I just like this discussion. I also don't mind anyone turning this into a "Bible Study". Last time I checked, Bible study has never hurt anyone.

Also, I can't help but notice that Icytre is the only man that dared tread these deep waters. Where are the rest of the fellas? I know they read this board daily and have chosen to remain silent on this subject. We won't bite you if you post a comment!

Diva:

Thanx for your post. You already know my basic stance from my post, but I will say that we are in agreeance about the sexual education bit. I am all for teaching people (especially women) that their bodies are temples and that they should respect their bodies. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

However, I don't agree with your statement that: "This pill is just another way of women finding the easy way out of their responsibility." But I'll end this there...we could go on for hours on this topic. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway, thanx for sharing your perspective, though.

Peace Love and Progression,
B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

Indeed children are not a right, they are a privilage. But in the same token children are not just property that when you are unable to (or simply don't want to) take care of them that you just throw them away (or in this case kill them... That is indeed UNREALISTIC.
If the married couple couldn't afford another child, DONT HAVE SEX until you are ready to assume responsibility for this child.

"I also believe in the right of a young girl, a young woman, an older woman, an unwed teen, or a widowed middle-aged woman to live her life. I refuse to believe that I or anyone should be made to make life harder on themselves. And although a mother should unconditionally and completely love their children...I'm sure we all know women who don't or at least act like they don't. No child deserves that.

A young woman, older woman, or especially a teenager should not be having premarital sex... biblically this is SIN. If you hypothetically decided to do this, you are in fact AT FAULT, not the CHILD. Why should the child die for YOUR mistake. YOU should be responsible for your choices, NOT THE BABY. Keep your legs closed and these things wont happen. I am aware that people are not perfect and are going to slip up, but should the child be responsible for weakness? Of course not. If you hit a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry, doesn't that person have to pay for their crime? Abortion is no different except that you are WILLINGLY killing your baby. Nobody made those women's lives harder, they brought this upon themselves with SIN (except the married couple. They will just have to brave the storm.) As with a case with rape, see my previous post.

No problen and thank you BrandNubian, it is always good to see what others think on a topic...

MidwestDiva:

First of all, I would like to say thanx for sharing your story. *hug*.

Second of all, in regards to your message above, I am totally in agreeance. I think this happens all the time. People focus on these one or two crusades, and other "ills" or "sins" are totally overlooked. I am not making references to anyone in particular, just saying I understand the point you are trying to make, as I have been in situations like that on more than one occasion. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

AlwaysDivine:

I must agree with you on this one. People come from all sorts of spiritual/ethical backgrounds. And while some person may not believe the same thing that another person does, it doesn't mean that somebody is necessarily wrong. Thanx for putting that out there.

B.N.


------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

I personally have decided to be celibate until marriage. I have a fiance that totally understands where I am coming from with this issue. Of course my spirit has lead me to this. As with others, I DO tell them that premarital sex is indeed sin, and try to be understanding with them (friends, relatives etc.) because I wasn't always saved, and know how hard it is without the Holy Spirit to guide you (It's hard with the Spirit sometimes. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif) The Devil is always trying to throw something on your lap...

[This message has been edited by Diva_56 (edited October 05, 2000).]

First, please let me say that, regardless of how touchy this issue is, I'm glad that black women are expressing themselves on this issue because it is without a doubt important.

Me By Nature,
Wow, don't be thin skinned, I did not post my facts and thoughts to offend anyone. It's just too many times people make assumptions or pass judgement on people, when they have no place and/or when it is not their job(especially since humans are not perfect) to throw stones.

My intent was to type up a post that would open people's eyes, if they did not have an idea. I do not post things that are rude, ignorant, or to offend people, that takes AWAY the focus from my main point.
Like I said before(and please throw out versus if there are any), if there is anything that refers to "abortion" in the bible and please do not offend me or waste my time by questioning my faith and bond with god(That is between the great one and I), let me know where I can look.
But from my research, with ministers and my paster(at bible study, by the way), there was no reference.

Not to mention, the issue of when a fetus becomes a baby is quite unclear, some people believe that right after incourse or once the sperm meets the egg, then there is a baby. So that in itself is complicating.

But I will say this, sometimes we need to be aware of our priviledges; we have loving families that took(or still take) good care of us. But I feel, if a child is going to be born to a severe drug addict, be found in a garbage bin, or physically or psychologically abused, don't have any.

Someone on the board asks, do pro-choice supporters support pre-marital sex. That's an interesting question. Life is about choices and if we lived in a perfect world, maybe abortions and pre-marital sex wouldn't exist.

Last, I will say this, I don't want women dying because they didn't have a choice and they had to get an illegal abortion. I don't want a married women becoming suicidal because her and her husband gave birth to a dead child that had no brains or who's organs developed on the outside of it's poor body. Like I said, life is about choices, some you agree with, some you don't, but that person has to have a choice.

thinskinned?????????? I was merely making myself clear and didn't realize that I appeared thinskinned. This is a discussion in which we take different stands I (or anyone else) have no reason to be offended, sorry if you took it that way.

<<Mid>> As I stated in one of my post, I live with my boyfriend and am well aware that it is wrong. Yes, there are battles that I must overcome just like everyone else.

There are sooooo many posts on this topic and it's amazing to see African American women discussing this topic. I would like to thank those who are explaining the exact molecular mechanisms that underlie the properties of RU 486. I myself am a Ph.D. molecular genetics scientist doing cholesterol research. I am planning to switch my research into diabetes, arthritis or some other interesting molecular phenomena.

What interests me about this drug is that like someone said previously, is blocks the ability for the umbilical cord to form completely, so implantation doesn't properly occur and signals to the pituitary and other organs regulating the menstural cycle that the pregnancy has gone arwy and so the woman miscarries or spontaneously aborts the embryo/ fetus.

At the molecular genetic level of conception, many researchers are very fuzzy on the entire topic. At best, they have determined how the sperm penetrates the egg. Okay since I teach the non majors bio course at my university, it goes like this: How does a half of a cell "break-into" another half cell ? I call these half cells because they only have half the genetic information required for a living cell. So why does cloning work? That's a totally different topic and unrelated to the RU 486 affects.

As far as the political implications go, RU 486 regulates progesterone affects on cholesterol metabolism. I t can also be used as a very potent cholesterol regulator drug. Maybe the men that approved this drug are trying to save themselves from their athersclerotic heart disease...

And as a Pan Afrikanist I do have to ask, how are women of Afrikan descent really affected by this drug? As far as I can see, I do see way too many black kids or kids of color running around . The population of white births are rather low compared to that of children of color... Think about it--is this the wave of eugenics and population control???

Shalom Everyone~

What do I think about [Are You For 86?]?
I think NO!

I too, like AKA_Monet see this beyond a pro-choice situation....I guess I'm still upset with the Coon Issue that took place at my church to see beyond the possibility of an ethnic wipe out somewhere in this thing.

Eclipse, I agree with your position and I commend you for your posting, not because I am holier then anyone, but because I too, like MIDWESTDIVA, aborted my child...I don't mind sharing it because it is a fact and it is the truth. The only explanation I can give anyone when asked, "Why" is "I was selfish".
I'm not saying that is the reason for anyone else...that is mine...I was selfish.

I disagree with Ania regarding abortions not causing psychological damage...I beg to differ. Psychological damage/Condemnation...
same difference if you've been there and done that! And I'm not just speaking for myself...I speak for the many women to whom I minister and counsel with as they come to the Church needing to heal and be made whole.

You see, I shoved the sight and the sounds of that day and the days leading up to the death of my child so far away in my mind's closet until I had convinced myself that my child was only 32 clumps of cells....Until I surrendered to Jesus Christ and made HIM LORD of my life-----completely LORD over my life!

~HE (Jesus) was there when all the guilt, the pain and the pictures in my mind came up like vomit!
~He was there when I accepted the fact that by HIS BLOOD, I stood clean.
~He was there when I agreed with HIM that the Psalmist David was right when he was inspired to write Psalm 139:13-16.

This psalm reminds us that:
*It is God who forms our inward parts.
*It is God who hovers over us in the
womb.
*It is God whose work is in the making.
*It is God who knows each molecule of
our frames.
*It is God whose eyes carefully watch
our "unformed substance" take human
shape.
*It is God who, from the very beginning
planned the days of our lives before
we were born.
It is easy for some to dismiss the unborn child as mere tissue without independent life or meaning. David's awed contemplation on the mystery of birth makes it hard for the Christian to as easily dismiss God's role in the creation of a child. *Taken from Larry Richards~The Personal Growth Study Bible NKJ Version.

I don't have an answer for the woman/girl of rape or incest...I do know of a woman who is the product of both (I speak the truth)! And she has allowed the LORD to use her and her life story to help other women. Her mother (whom I haven't met) had to be strong to endure such horrible act and bring forth a child...a child that is now a Mighty Woman of GOD!

I say strong because I fell short of being strong. But I praise the LORD that out of it I have an experienced-compassion for those women who have made the decision of abortion for whatever reason...I'm just there to up pick them up and walk with them
and let them experience the Love of our LORD, Christ Jesus! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Shalom

Brand Nubian, thank you for the *hug*


Originally posted by AKA_Monet:

And as a Pan Afrikanist I do have to ask, how are women of Afrikan descent really affected by this drug? As far as I can see, I do see way too many black kids or kids of color running around . The population of white births are rather low compared to that of children of color... Think about it--is this the wave of eugenics and population control???

Do you think this is what RU486 is really about? Couldn't the same things also be said about Norplant, Depo Provera or birth control pills? Do you think that this pill will increase the number of abortions African American and Latino women undergo?


------------------
We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

You're welcome MIDWESTDIVA!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif To answer your question....I try not to 'condone' any sin, even my own!! You should see the fights I have with my self!! I think the issue that you see is that very few people will say things like murder are o.k. As a result, you don't see these major debates about is it o.k. to murder someone in certain situations. I also believe, to be honest with you, that some people don't talk about those 'little' (totally sarcastic!) sins like lying, gossiping, etc. because they know they are guilty of them too!!

Why did you say Bible Study was o.k?!?!?......you done done it now!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Since MIDWESTDIVA gave me her blessings for a Bible study I did a little bit of research on the topic. AlwaysDivine was right when she said that people have various faiths and philosophies, but those of us who profess Christianity must search the sriptures to see what they say, and then do our best to follow them. I found a wonderful essay on the topic of abortion from a biblical standpoint so I will post it below. The only other thing that I ahve to say about the topic is that each person must search their hearts about this and any other topic. The Holy Spirit will do the convicting, not me!!


_______________________________________
The fact that the word "abortion" does not appear in the Bible does not mean God is silent on the subject. Rather, one must probe
the scripture in deeper and broader context to discern His will regarding this matter. One doesn't find "heroin" mentioned either,
but it is not difficult for Christians to decide that its use is wrong. The basic question which must be answered is whether God deems the unborn to be a person. If the answer is "no", then perhaps we have the right to dispose of a fetus as an unwanted
appendix or tumor. If the answer is "yes," then we must treat the unborn with all the love and concern due another person that
God requires of us as Christians.

God knew David as a person before he was born, as related in Psalm 139:13-15 "You did form my inward parts, you knit
me together in my mother's womb.. you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being
make in secret..." Human life begins at conception for the Psalmist David uses the personal pronoun "me" in the above.

More directly, God speaks to Jeremiah showing the child in the womb is a person. Jeremiah 1:4,5 "now the word of the Lord
came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."

The entity in the womb is a baby. Luke 1:41-44 "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her
womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among
women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.' And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come
to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.' " The
Greek word for babe (BREPHOS) as used in the Greek scriptures also denoted a baby in Luke 2:12,16; an infant in Luke
18:15; and a child in II Timothy 3:15. In those passages, we see that no distinction was made between born and unborn
children.

The following concerns John the Baptist in Luke 1:15 "He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth."

God knows the personalities of the unborn as in Genesis 25:23 "two nations are in thy womb" (Jacob and Esau) "and two
manner of people."

And Paul writes in Galatians 1:15 "But when He who had set me apart before I was born... and had called me through
his grace."

In these passages God is dealing with the unborn. One he consecrates, another he sets apart for service, a third he fills with the
Holy Spirit. Clearly, in these instances the unborn is a person. Lest there be any reservation that these may be special cases,
consider the most unique person of all, our Savior Jesus Christ. Unique as He is, the scriptures tell us that in His human nature He
was to be like us in every was. Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that
he might become a merciful and faithful high priest."
____________________________________
Thank you to all who made me search the scripture to determine why I believe what I believe. You are making me stronger!!

Have a great weekend everyone!
Eclipse

Well... Are Afrikans in amerikkklan suppose to be using "contra-de-ceptives"? Especially with all the drug side affects that occur using those drugs?

What are these alleged abortion numbers of Afrikans in amerikkklan and out Latino-native american population?

When do we shunning are girl children: when they decide to abort or when they carry the baby to term and become a teenage mother that depletes our social-economic resources? Which is the lesser of 2 evils?

Spiritually speaking and come to find out scientifically speaking, a little pre-evolutionary decisions out to be made before one lies down and creates and perpetuates a new life---'Cuz the last immaculate conception I ever heard of came from Auset and Mary... By pre-evolution, I in no way trying to implement Darwin's thing except for one idea and that is personally, I will select my mate, naturally...

Then what is the idea of conception on a spiritually and scientifically? Once an egg become fertilized, are we proving biological fact?

I have a question which somewhat relates to this subject even though it doesn't deal with taking a life. For those who believe that God allows things to happen for a reason - is it wrong to have surgery to remove a tumor (that God allowed to develop) or to take chemotherapy for the cancer (that God allowed to ravage your body)? It seems extreme, but, I DO know many religious people who do not get medical attention because of their faith. NOW, I DON"T AGREE WITH THIS - as everyone has seen, I think abortion is justified. But, how do those of you who think abortion is so wrong feel about human intervention in their own death... i.e. stopping diseases and conditions that GOD ALLOWED TO HAPPEN?

I am very curious

I think one of the main disagreements about abortion is whether or not the child is "alive" or actually a person in the womb. Some people think that it isn't yet a baby...it's just tissue, a fetus. Others think that it is actually a baby at the moment of conception. To answer your question: if you remove a tumor from your body, who are you hurting?? If you take chemotherapy, whom are you harming? If you abort a child, in essence, you are killing a life that has already been predestined by God. I don't think that the argument is in whether or not sustaining our health is against God's will. For that matter, we could not eat, and depend on God to nourish us supernaturally. I know the next question will be, what if the woman's life is in danger if she has the child. Well, in that case you are taking it into your own hands of whose life is worth more. You or your child. And, frankly, that's not a decision for you to make (at least in my opinion). I would love to hear what Ms. Diva has to say as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diva_56:

Indeed children are not a right, they are a privilage. But in the same token children are not just property that when you are unable to (or simply don't want to) take care of them that you just throw them away (or in this case kill them... That is indeed UNREALISTIC.
If the married couple couldn't afford another child, DONT HAVE SEX until you are ready to assume responsibility for this child.

Are you serious? You really think that a married couple should not have sex unless they are ready for parenthood? Do you believe that sex is for purposes of procreation only? Also, I'm not sure where you're coming from with "Christians simply cannot condone the sin of abortion..." The New Testament speaks endlessly of forgiveness, which is the same thing as condoning sin according to Webster's dictionary.

Also, does anyone really think that it is God's divine plan to have all of the young African American and Latino girls walking around pushing strollers at the age of 13, 14, 15, 16, 17? Especially while our young Black men seem to be content to make babies and then move on to the next available coochie? All men aren't like DoggyStyle82. I would have quoted him but his post has mysteriously disappeared.

Also, I get the impression from some of the posts that I've read that if a woman gets pregnant, then she has been punished for commiting the sin of adultery and that she should accept her punishment by having her child. Should children be seen as a punishment? I think they should be seen as a blessing. But maybe a child is seen as more of a blessing to an adult married woman than to a young, single girl, who hasn't even finished high school yet. What about the young single mothers out there who end up becoming grandmothers at age 30, because the pattern of early parenthood has repeated itself. This happens all too often. These women haven't finished raising their own children yet, but now end up raising grandchildren as well. Again, I'm not saying abortion is right, I'm just saying that these are some situations where I would just have to fall short.


------------------
We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 06, 2000).]

MIDWESTDIVA:

You are quite welcome. Have a great day. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

B.N.


------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

If you have read what I have said, Children are a privilage, not a right. A young woman needs to realize that when she has sex whether married or not, there is a possibility of having a baby. 13 year olds pushing around strollers and putting babies in an unstable enviroment is NOT God's plan, but I am sure it is not in God's plan to KILL them either in the womb. Married couples can make educated choices if they are not ready to have a baby... They can simply abstain MUTUALLY, or if they choose to have sex and a baby comes from it, you still DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL IT because your not ready.


Have you read Shalom2U reason as to why she got an abortion, She said and I quote "I was selfish." Abortion is indeed a SELFISH ACT, by killing another life to make yours better.
Also if we educated out men and women to know that sex was made for marriage and not for self gradification OUTSIDE of marriage, then we (The world) wouldn't have this mentality.
Children are not a punishment. Yes their upbringing takes work and many sleepless nights, but the labors are worth it when you see you have produced a productive person in the world. My mother has told me that she wanted to abort me in pregnancy... boy am I glad she didn't!!

The Lord saw ME in the womb that I would be destined for greatness nad spared me!
God forgives all that COME TO HIM... but He is also a JUST God that won't take the sin of abortion lightly...We all will stand before him on judgement day and answer for all we have done.

That's all I have to say today...

AMEN!!

[This message has been edited by Diva_56 (edited October 10, 2000).]

Midwest Diva: the reason why I deleted my post was that I have no place in this discussion. Being a man, I cannot tell a woman what to do with her body. However if I were to impregnate a woman outside of marriage, I would encourage her to have the child and/or marry her. My philosophy is to never have unprotected sex with a woman you would not either want marry or want to be the mother of your child. The child is innocent and should not be killed because of someone elses immorality, immaturity, or selfishness. Neither should that child be raised fatherless, wanting, and unloved or properly cared for. This is strictly my opinion. Also, I am a Christian and I consider abortion WRONG FOR ME. I would not IMPOSE my faith on someone else. Faith is not a weapon to beat someones opposing beliefs into submission. Faith is personal and should not be used to belittle or demonize others. The Bible speaks clearly but I understand that women need to wreslte with more emotions and feelings than I can comprehend and whatever decision they make is life-altering. Christians can disagee without being disagreeable,unreasonable, sermonizing, or Holier than thou.

DoggyStyle82, I disagree with you. You do have a place in this discussion. Your opinion is just as important as any woman's. I would like to thank you and Diva_56 for being so open in your feelings. I can respect people who can come out in the open and say "Midwestdiva, I think what you did was wrong" more than I can respect those who are silently judging me while reading through this thread.

Now, I realize that I have been very vocal on this topic, so hopefully http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif this will be my last post.

There have been many who preached the 6th commandment, Thou Shall Not Murder. There is no way to argue against that, except with the "When does life actually begin" argument. I honestly don't know when life begins, so I will just assume for argument's sake that life begins as soon as a sperm enters an ovum. If that is the case, I am a sinner guilty of murder. Now some have asked, how does a Christian commit a sin like this? Let's take a look at Christianity.

There are some out there who believe that Christianity is merely about following rules and regulations. They usually know these rules very well. I'll list some of them for you: Don't take God's name in vain, Do honor thy father and mother, Don't commit adultery, Do love your neighbor as yourself, Don't kill. You all catch my drift I'm sure. People like this existed in the Bible as well. They are called Pharisees and Sadducees. Now the Pharisees and Sadducees were very intelligent men. They knew the law inside and out, and kept the laws almost as well. However, as intelligent as they were, they were unable to grasp a very important concept-grace. Matthew 9:10-13 NIV states "While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this Jesus said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I am more than happy to take my place at this table with the rest of the "sinners".

To further explore the concept of grace I now turn to Ephesians 2:1-9 NIV. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature, and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature, objects of wrath. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of god-not by works; so that noone can boast. Not By Works. This is key information. One cannot earn salvation by doing, or not doing anything. Such a legalistic approach to salvation is consistently condemned in scripture.

Now, am I saying that if one simply has faith they can throw the rules to the wayside? Absolutely not! All things work together for the good. If one has faith, they will want to please the Lord by following his rules. However, even a person with strong faith will sin. Because this person know the difference between right and wrong (the rules and regs), they will feel guilt at have disappointed God. Some will use this opportunity to repent and ask for forgiveness. If you have any questions about my repentance, please refer to my first post. I don't want anyone here to get the wrong idea; your personal opinions of me are not that important. I am just trying to educate.


Now back to the subject matter at hand. It has been said that "we need Jesus". I agree wholeheartedly. But I have to wonder, will doing away with abortion bring about a moral revolution? Will our young ladies, who no longer have the option to abort unwanted pregnancies suddenly discover the virtue of virginity? I seriously doubt it. Abortion is not the problem. It is a symptom of other problems. When we are able to solve these other problems, abortion will no longer be necessary.

I apologize for the length of my post, but I wanted to do some Bible study as well.


Peace and Blessings.....


[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 10, 2000).]

Sister MIDWESTDIVA, girl you preach ... I bowed out of the fight awhile ago, because as Mr. Doggystlye stated (please reread his last post) people on this board are using FAITH AS A WEAPON, I am new to my religion and I could not fight like some were, with words, AND MERE WORDS at that!! It should not be that way. I reread all these post and one of the first things you said was "you were telling us this b/c you want to prevent others from following your footsteps" and I think that speaks volumes, after all is said and done, you can now teach one about your experiences. Life is full of them (experiences) and we all go through them differently. I can't condone how the bible was being thrown around here this past week or so, but I like when people speak from the heart.... simple trues are what matters in 'HIS' name.

No one on this little earth is better then the other and we should not talk about judgement day b/c we will all have to confess a thing or three, whether it be abortion or lying or stealing, a sin is a sin is a sin, none looked upon more worse then the other, except of course in the society in which we live, and we know Jesus walks with us but he don't live here on this earth, so our judgements are meaningless!!

Please remember the Christians we claim to be and let's move on - are yall ready to move on to the next topic??

[This message has been edited by LadyAKA (edited October 11, 2000).]

MIDWESTDIVA,


I totally agree with your statement,

Jesus said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he did not come to the earth to abolish he law, but to make sure that the law was FUFILLED. Jesus also knows that even the most mature in Christ will sin, it is part of our sinful nature. I know if a woman really wanted to kill her baby, she could do it whether it was illegal or not. But we as a society legalizing and enabling this pratice is amazing to me. There is although a difference between the christian and the world when it comes to sin.

1. We are saved by GRACE. God has shown MERCY on us by letting Jesus take the place of our sins on Judgement Day.

2. The sinning christian feels that their sin is wrong before God (not that others can't be aware of their sin or even be sorry for it) and wants to be forgiven.

3. Jesus said that when we recieved him that all sins of the past, present, and future will be forgiven on Judgement Day. This however does not give the christian the passport to sin without regret... for a true christian in my eyes will want to turn away from sin completely. But as we grow in the spirit, we becme mature christians and are more able to resist temptation.(part of the requirements of living by faith.)
And as far as knowing of the law, it means nothing without the GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD!

MIDWESTDIVA,

it takes alot of courage to admit what you have here and I know that if you ask for forgiveness (or if you already have) God will surely forgive and forget! Isn't it great to have Jesus on your side?!


Diva_56

TTT-Morning-after pill over the counter?
 

What do you think....

The Associated Press
Updated: 6:32 a.m. ET Dec. 17, 2003WASHINGTON - Women may soon have an easier way to help prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex now that government advisers have recommended that morning-after birth control should be sold without a doctor’s prescription.

“It’s extraordinarily safe,” said Dr. Alastair Wood of Vanderbilt University, an adviser to the Food and Drug Administration.

In fact, he said, women probably should keep emergency contraception in their medicine cabinet just in case it’s ever needed. “We don’t tell people to buy a fire extinguisher after the fire started.”

The panel on Tuesday voted in favor of over-the-counter sales of emergency contraception amid concerns from anti-abortion critics and worries from others that easier access to morning-after pills may increase unsafe sex, particularly among teenagers.

Could prevent abortions
But proponents argued there was no evidence that emergency contraception lulls women into complacency about regular birth control or disease. They said wider use of the morning-after pill could cut in half the nation’s 3 million unintended pregnancies each year and in turn prevent hundreds of thousands of abortions.

“There is a public health imperative to increase access to emergency contraception,” said Dr. Vivian Dickerson, president-elect of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

The FDA isn’t bound by its advisers’ recommendations but usually follows them. A decision is expected in late February.

Asked whether political considerations would be taken into account, FDA Commissioner Mark McClellan said, “We have a lot of information coming in. It’s very much a science-based process.”

The morning-after pill is simply a higher dose of regular hormonal contraception, and is sold by prescription under the brand names Plan B and Preven. Plan B’s manufacturer wants to sell the drug without a prescription, putting it on pharmacy shelves next to the aspirin and cough medicine.

Taken within 72 hours of intercourse, the pills cut the chances of getting pregnant by up to 89 percent. But it can be hard to find a doctor to write a prescription in time, especially on weekends and holidays, contraceptive advocates and the nation’s largest gynecologists group told the FDA on Tuesday.

Morning-after pills prevent ovulation or fertilization, and possibly interfere with implantation of a fertilized egg into the uterus, the medical definition of pregnancy.

If a woman already is pregnant, they have no effect. Consequently, emergency contraception hasn’t proved nearly as controversial as RU-486, the abortion pill.

Teen usage worries
It does have critics who oppose any interference with a fertilized egg, and who argued Tuesday during a daylong hearing that broader access could increase sexually transmitted diseases, especially in teens.

“Without medical advice, use of Plan B by teens will be disastrous,” said Dr. John Bruchalski of the Catholic Medical Association.

Some of FDA’s advisers did want teen access to nonprescription Plan B restricted, arguing there wasn’t enough study of the drug in minors.

Also, “I’m concerned there will be an exploitation of young women’s fears about becoming pregnant,” leading them to overuse, said panelist Dr. Susan Crockett, a Texas gynecologist.

But the FDA responded that there are no age restrictions on prescription Plan B and that it couldn’t enforce any on an over-the-counter version. Other advisers said teens in particular should avoid pregnancy.

The FDA asked its scientific advisers whether women could use the drug properly without professional advice. They could, the panel decided, voting 23-4 to recommend over-the-counter sales.

The key, they cautioned, would be clearer wording on the package so that women understand:
—The drug must be used as soon as possible after unprotected sex. Although it’s effective for 72 hours, and possibly a little longer, it works best in the first 24 hours.
—Like other hormonal contraceptives, it does not protect against sexually transmitted diseases.
—It is a backup contraceptive, and should not be used instead of routine birth control.
Cost could deter some women from using emergency contraception too regularly. Each one-time-use pack today costs $20 to $30, about as much as a month’s worth of regular birth control pills. It’s not clear if the over-the-counter price would change.
Manufacturer Barr Laboratories promised a massive consumer education campaign, including a 24-hour hot line for advice on using the drug.

To improve access, California, Washington, Alaska, Hawaii and New Mexico already allow women to buy the morning-after pill directly from certain pharmacists without a prescription.

The FDA should not require pharmacists to dispense Plan B, most advisers agreed.

The main difference with the Morning After Pill and RU 486 is what each does. Ru 486 causes expulsion of implanted cells. The Pill will PREVENT implantation.

I wont get into the religious aspect of it b/c:
1. Its my relationship with Him
2. You interpretation of life is not mine

Politically, its my body, please keep your laws out of it. I am pro-choice b/c I feel that no one should tell a woman what to do with her body. Period.

Think on this: China has a one baby, one family policy. Boys are more valued than girls. So if a couple gets pregnant, they pray for a boy. If its a girl, many run to government sponsored clinics for abortions. Who is more wrong: the woman in the US who gets pregnant accidentally and aborts her baby or the Chinese woman who has an abortion b/c she wants a boy?

Its very complicated. When you throw religion into it, you lose a lot of people b/c not everyone has the same beliefs.
Life is about choices. Choices mean consequences. Its up to each person to determine whether or not they can live with their choices and the consequences.