Correct me if I'm wrong, in Christianity the belief is once a human grasps the difference between right and wrong...and the person chooses to do wrong, then s/he will go to hell when they die if they haven't been "saved". At that stage of life, one cannot grasp the difference between right and wrong, nor grasp that Jesus died for their sins. The baby will automatically go to heaven, but with the mom it is questionable, depending on her beliefs and how she lived her life.

This is the belief, right? If it is, isn't it more appropiate to try to save the mother's life before the baby's, giving the mother a second chance to "come clean"?

I am going to say it.

A few months ago, I thought I was pregnant. I had a really, really bad scare, to the point where everything gave me the idea that I was, but the tests were negative, and finally my lil friend came to visit. What a relief that was. I've never cried so much in my life than I did then. Why? Because I knew that I am not responsible enough, or at all, to take care of a child. Not to mention the guy who could have been the father is a total piece of white trash, who has a kid and rarely sees him or takes care of him. That may be against his will because the mother won't let him, but I would still never trust him with my child. Also, I am from a very strict family. Me getting pregnant would mean me getting kicked out of my house, fired from my job, no car, no school. And my father would also probably have a heart attack, seriously.

The question is would I have had an abortion? I'm not going to lie. I would have. I shouldn't have had sex with him, but we always were very careful and that was our only mistake. We were ALOT more careful afterwards.

Am I a horrible person for wanting to? I don't think I was being selfish in the matter. I was thinking about the possible child, the could have been father, and my family. If none of these were issues I would have just gone on with the pregnancy and raised the child.

I look at my niece and think, OMG could I really do this? And I feel terrible. I still cry thinking about what could have happened.[/color]

Good...
 

PM_Mama00:

I applaud your efforts--only you truly know or knew the range of emotions I was talking about...

I can say this, I know of several young ladies that have been in similar predicaments such as yours. So do not ever feel that you are the first one ever to have gone thru what you have just described...

I have seen myriads of tears from those women who have endured the potential decision they would have to make...

I also think that you have gained much strength thru your endeavor and you are capable of achieving any goal you set your sites upon. NEVER EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENTLY!!!

As far as your potential choice--that was yours to make with any support you needed to get thru that. If you EVER feel that the world that you reside has ever forsakened you--meaning as you described, your parents are strict, you'd lose your job, etc.--just know that there are several folks at least of GC that know where you can find the support you need...

PM me if you have questions.

Stay blessed...

Re: Re: Re: Let's be honest...
 

I'm not sure what you're getting at about teenagers??

I don't know if it really matters. But for the record I am pro-choice.
It definitly is a heart wrenching situation.
When I was training to be a lifeguard we were always told that, while it is a lifeguard's legal obligation to help in a lifesaving situation, if you're own life is seriously threated you are to back off. Simplly, it is better to lose one life that to lose two.
For example, if you saw someone drowing and you went into rescue them and they started grabing at you, pulling you under (which is always a risk), we were always told to back away to protect pur own safety. Of course you would try to calm them down in hopes that you could help them, but the fact of the matter is, you might not be able to save them. That why there are steps to take to ensure that the lifesaver/guard does not become a victim as well (ie. reach, throw, row, tow, go, carry).
While I understand that a drowning victim and an abortion are two completely different things, I think what I am trying to say is that in a case where a woman was going to have an abortion because her life was at risk, I don't think think there is anything wrong with putting yourself first.
While I would hate to see anyone lose their life. I do believe that it is still better to lose one life than two lives.

Re: Re: Re: Let's be honest...
 

That's a very good point. I'm very bothered by people who want to tell other women what they can or can't do, especially when those people have never been in the situation to have to worry about it.

I do think that nobody can say for sure what she would do unless she has experienced it. I just read an article not too long ago (and I wish I could remember where it was) where a woman said that she was "pro-life" but when she became pregnant she almost immediately changed her mind. Funny how that can happen. :)

I do not think that a woman should be ashamed of having an abortion. Unfortunately, with all of the stigma and controversy surrounding the topic in our society, I'm sure that most women would be afraid to admit it in a public forum. Although I've never had an abortion (thankfully I've never been pregnant) I admit that I would consider it but I take precautions to do the best I can to make sure that I'm never in that situation. It's a very scary possibility for a woman like me who never wants to have children.

After reading Valkyrie's post. She said that she didn't want children.
While I have said on many occasions that I don't ever want to have children, my mind isn't completely made up. But for those women or men for that matter on GC (who of course would like to share) that have chosen to not have children and are completely sure of this, have you considered more permanent forms of birth control like vasectomies or tubaligation (sp?)?

I would love to have my tubes tied (I can't think of the right word either) but my doctor says I'm too young for the procedure and that I'll change my mind and want children. :rolleyes: There is no way it would be fair for me to give a child my health history, let alone the fact that I do not like children in the least. I wish society in general was more accepting to the fact that not all women (and men) have an overwhelming desire to procreate>

This is going to seem like an extremely personal post, but this is something I have shared with groups of teenagers that had hundreds of people, so I can share it easly without pain.

When I was 22 years old, I was raped by an exboyfriend, and was terrified I was pregnant. I skipped 3 periods , and then started all of a sudden one day. When my best friend asked me if I wanted to have any abortion, I said no. I have always been against abortion because of religious reasons and seeing the effects of abortion on a few of my friends, but it ocurred to me: Was having the abortion going to "unrape" me? Of course not. But, there existed the huge possibility that I would be adding guilt to what I was already feeling.

I am not in favor of abortion at any time. I would never tell another person that they were evil or bad or anything else for having one; I have sat through 2 with girls that I counseled. Yes, I tried to talk them out of it, but when they still went through with it, I was there with them - supporting and loving them, but not their decision.

You wouldn't believe how often I am attacked for my stance, and how many times I've heard the question: "What if you were raped?" Well, I was, and my stance still held.

Crystal, thank you for sharing that - I am sorry to hear about your experience but I think you've grown into a wonderful young woman and I am glad things turned out for you.

Re: I dunno...
 

you are correct about this but who am I to say what someone that is pregnant should do or what they can or cannot do? -it is not my place to say no you have to have this child no matter what.

I am completely pro-choice in any situation. I hate to see all of these neglected children and if an abortion keeps one more neglected child from coming into this world then so be it. The pope doesn't want abortion to be legal or birth control but I don't see him over here or anywhere else adopting children left and right that are homeless or in orphanages. I could go on but I get too fired up on this subject.

AMEN to that!

Yes, I have considered it and am planning to do it. Of course, I'd prefer that my boy have a vasectomy because it's less invasive, but ultimately I respect the fact that he might not be willing to undergo a permanent procedure at his relatively young age.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult for a woman who has not had children to find a doctor willing to perform a tubal ligation -- they seem to often think that we are fragile, emotional creatures who can't think straight and need them to protect us because of course we will eventually change our minds and want children. Because I am older than most of you, this shouldn't be as much of a problem for me, but it's still a problem. The other big problem is money. I'm about to lose my health insurance (because of quitting my job) but if I can do the operation before then and if it's covered, I'm going to do it.

I realize that a few women have shared some personal and painful memories with us in this thread. Ladies, you'll never know who you may have helped by doing this. Thank you for being brave enough to put your experiences "out there" for others to read about.

I think it's unfortunate that those women who have chosen not to have any children are being turned away by doctors for procedures because the doctor thinks that they know best. It seems to me that if a doctor will perform an abortion but not a tuballigation, that doctor is being a hypocrite. While one way is permenent, the women does not want to be pregnant and that should be her choice, not the doctors.

On a side note, I also read that after having an abortion it becomes increasingly difficult to conceive (naturally). Does anyone know if this is true or not. Also in my biology class I read that your chances of becoming pregnant (naturally) were 23%. Your chances increas with different methods, ie. In Vitro.

I'm not sure about that, but I do know that if you've ever had an abortion, every subsequent pregnancy is automatically considered high-risk - meaning, among other things, that you should be under the close supervision of a doctor and you are strongly encouraged to give birth in a hospital (rather than at home or in a birth center).

Multiple births are also high-risk as are certain medical conditions.

Many doctors are not willing to give unmarried women without children long-term BC methods like the IUD or Norplant, "too risky, in their terms. :rolleyes: I read somewhere where a woman tried to sue her doctor because he gave her a tubal when she was 24 and when she was 35, she got married and wanted kids...the lawsuit didn't stand, but still...with liability insurance becoming so prohibitively expensive that amazing doctors are retiring :mad:, I can't blame them for not wanting to step in the line of fire in that regard. I still think it's a pretty shitty situation. Sometimes, they are unwilling to perform ligations on relatively young women (under 30) who have had children!

Re: Re: I dunno...
 

Thank you! What she said! http://www.superbabies.homestead.com/files/claps.gif

Re: Re: I dunno...
 

I'm not weighing in on this discussion per se, but I'd like to know if it is at ALL possible to NOT attack the pope personally every time a moral issue comes up.

Perhaps aggie AXO isn't aware of Catholic Charities and other church run organizations that DO help w/ adopting children.

This is called Catholic Bashing and it is a form of bigory, just like racism and sexism. If you do it, you are a bigot, case closed.

This is where flame wars begin.

</hijak>

Re: Abortion... please don't flame!
 

To me, abortion in a case like this is equivalent to self-defense.

Re: Abortion... please don't flame!
 

Me personally, I would give my life so that my baby would live.

A long time ago, I use to think that abortion was ok in cases of rape until I met two important people in my life that were both conceived via that way. In one case, my friend's mother was raped by a strange man (they never found him) at the age of 16. Her mother kept the baby, raised her, and now she is a productive member of society (she's married and now is an Evangelist) doing great things to help other women.

In the other case, my boyfriend's mother was raped by someone she knew. His mother gave him up for adoption and he was fortunate enough to be raise by a loving family and is a productive member of society.

So in short, in cases of rape, I don't think that abortion should be an option, although I do believe that there should be services availible (counseling, foster families to help care for those women who are kicked out of their homes, adoption services, etc.) to women so that they can safely carry the baby to term.

AKA_Monet: You are providing some interesting points to ponder.

I definitely agree that the baby would automatically go to Heaven. However, I don't think that's really the issue when it comes to abortion. Maybe the mother has lived a very moral and Christian lifestyle and doesn't need a second chance.

I think that under certain circumstances should abortion be considered. Women should always have the oppurtunity to do so but only if it is early in the pregancy and only once. I think that people who wait untill the last minute to abort a child is horrible. Abortion should only be offered if early in the pregancy. People who use abortion as means of birth control should also only be given one chance. Abortion is not a form of birth control and should not be used with this in mind.

Keep abortion legal...make numberous abortions illegal.

Encourage the woman to have an abortion (which I as a Christian consider a sin), rather than leave it in God's hands as to whether she or the baby lives, on the offchance that she might "get saved" afterwards? I wouldn't say this falls in with Christian beliefs. You better believe if I had a friend in this situation, I would encourage and pray for her (and with her if given the opportunity), but I would encourage her to rely on God to save her and her baby - not a surgical procedure that destroys the baby. Doctors are sometimes wrong, and miracles happen. I hope that if I am EVER in this situation myself that God gives me the strength to do what I say I will so - be willing to sacrifice myself for my baby.

Oh, by the way - I'm adopted. My mother was poor, married to a man that never came home, and 19 when she had me. She wasn't ready to be a mother, wasn't financially able to be a mother, but she trusted God and did the best she could. When she remarried he adopted me, and she made it through all the tough times she had as a young divorced mother. (While in community college and working a part-time job.)

My belief is situations other than life threatening, rape and incest is this: You make your choices, you live with your consequences and do the best you can. I know several families who have adopted children, not just babies, and my family takes in teenagers. If you don't ever want children, fine - but think about that and practice birth control AHEAD of time.

Wow - that was a novel.

I just had a whole thing written down and my stupid computer erased it :mad:

Anyway, what I basically had said before was that there are so many "what if?" questions you can ask regarding this issue. We all have our opinions and and I don't think we're right and I don't think we're wrong. It's one of those issues that can and will be debated till the end of time.

Several have mentioned stories about friends and family and even themselves being adopted. I have a cousin that is adopted. I love her with all my heart. She's smart, sweet, funny, and an all around beautiful girl.
My aunt had several miscarriages and thought she would never be able to have children of her own (although after she adopted she had 2 children of her own). Now, what if the birth mother had chosen abortion instread of adoption? Well my cousin would never have been born. Would I have missed her? Well no. That may sound odd, but how can I love someone I have never met, I can I be attached to them when they don't exist? For the birth mother, the feelings will obviously be different, because there was the potential for a child (keeping in mind that I am pro-choice and I have different views on when the child actually becomes a child). My cousin could have gone to another family and I would never have had her in my life, and really, as cruel as this may sound, I wouldn't have cared about her because she would never have been a part of my life.
I hope I made sense, and didn't offend anyone. It's not my intention to offend anyone. I'm just stating my opinion.

Quick Question...
 

So what do you feel about a woman (or man's) responsibility to protect their child with their life. I KNOW that if I were put into a situation where I had to risk my life, or die, for my child, I would. This is only a question, not meant to say your aunt was wrong in her actions. This, to me, is the same scenario.

Hi Ladies and Gentlemen!!!
 

MTSUGURL-

I cannot imagine the horror you went thru at that time and still feel so strongly. I am glad to see your point of view in such a way.


On that note: From what I know some of my MD friends would say that usually, it is the insurance that will not allow unneccesary "altering sterilization" procedures such as tubaligations on young women...

See, once a woman gets her tubes tied, a whole new set of problems can arise. Tubaligation is not a non-evasive procedure as one use to think. Many doctor's are not highly trained in that kind of procedure anymore. And from what I understand, the reason they say is: what's the point...

And to do it on an under 30 woman--or any woman for that matter given the "naturally" occuring hormonal changes--i.e. pre and peri-menopause, to "force" a woman to take hormone replacement before 40 can be dangerous, which is exactly what a tubaligation procedure will cause... Not to mention, that many young women do not have insurance to pay for either the procedures OR the compendium drugs that are needed...

If any reproductive organ is removed, the loss of hormones must be considered to be replaced--which the mantra of Western Medicine... The fact is, if some women want to go without those hormones, then they can suffer, hot flashes, immediate facial hair growth, pain, etc. So many doctors just do not want to risk it...

Hey it might be easier to get a "partial" sex change operation--with a full hysterectomy rather than asking for a simple tube tying. Besides that, tube tying can become necrotic and full of "puss"--which is very painful--especially in the abdomen region... But there are surgeons who can do tubaligations very well too...



Feeling the need to not want to have children is everyone's right. I personally find it rather responsible. However, protecting that responsibility has many political implications... And there are numerous reasons why... The fact that there are many mysogynistic men out there beyond their 70s that still believe this 1950's style nuclear family is a problem and what comes to my mind first...

But I think that what many folks face--especially at the "proper" marriage age between 25-32ish, is that there is this STRONG family pressure to have children and that many folks just subcomb (sp?) to that family pressure and "baby make" being ill-prepared or unwantonly...

I know my parents have this utter need to want grandchildren, even though several of my friends who have kids say my folks will truly change their minds if and when they have them... But that doesn't mean I don't get the questions from my folks every time I see them "when are you all gonna have kids?"...

Then just being recently married, and out of the single life and knowing that several of girlfriends who get asked from well meaning elders, "when are you going to get married???"

So what I am saying is this family pressure plays a significant role from abortion to reproduction...

Originally posted by Dionysus
Correct me if I'm wrong, in Christianity the belief is once a human grasps the difference between right and wrong...and the person chooses to do wrong, then s/he will go to hell when they die if they haven't been "saved". At that stage of life, one cannot grasp the difference between right and wrong, nor grasp that Jesus died for their sins. The baby will automatically go to heaven, but with the mom it is questionable, depending on her beliefs and how she lived her life.

This is the belief, right? If it is, isn't it more appropiate to try to save the mother's life before the baby's, giving the mother a second chance to "come clean"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, with this kind of thinking, if I know that you have lived a good christian life, I can kill you w/out guilt b/c I know you will go to heaven. Ok, that makes a lot of sense.

Also, if you are use birth control and get pregnant, you are a parent. You raise the kid, or give it up for adoption, you don't kill it. It is pretty clear, just because you have not seen your baby doesn't make it okay to kill it. Why does anyone think it is okay to take a human life? I wish I could understand your thinking. You cannot go around killing everyone who inconveniences your life. Please tell me what you are thinking, I WANT to know, so I may understand your argument in a better way

I'm a birth control and condom baby - My mom tried everything to protect herself - and she was even married!

I'm all in favor of adoption.

You're saying that it's not okay to kill it. Let me ask you a question: why? Why is it not okay? Can you give me a reason that is not based on religion?

I look at it like this: I am very careful about birth control. I hope I never, ever get pregnant. I respect your opinion and understand that you and I have differing views, but what I don't understand is why you would be okay with forcing me into having a child I didn't want. Yes, I could give that child up for adoption, but the thing is, I don't think that I could deal with pregnancy. I would have a huge problem with being forced to continue a pregnancy I didn't want. I don't think that it is fair or right for anybody to make a law that would force women to continue pregnancies they didn't want. I completely understand that there are many people out there who believe that abortion is wrong, but why should anyone have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my own body?

What if there was a way to remove a fetus/embryo from the body of a woman who didn't want it and implant it into another woman's body? Would you do it?

Sure, I'll give you a reason. It is ethically wrong. Think of it this way. In the grand scheme of things, which is the worse ending scenario if the two outcomes in the situation are (1. a loss of life) or (2. a girl who loses the ability to sleep around and party)? What appears to be the ethical thing to go with? I understand your argument about your body, but what about the babies body? Answer something for me. Why can't you handle a baby? Give me a reason other than the above reason of not being able to party. I believe that if you think you cannot handle a baby, you cannot handle sex.

And to the question of whether implanting embryo's into other women is ethical or moral? Well, sure, if you can assure me the baby will not be harmed.

Also.... no one is forcing you to have a baby.... you chose to have sex.

The way I see that is that it's probably happening for a reason, it's meant to be.

I agree with browncat's thoughts. You know when you have sex that you're taking the risk of becoming pregnant. If you know you can't handle that, then don't put yourself in a situation where it's possible you can get pregnant. It's not that hard of a concept. We have to live with the consequences of our actions. I know everyone talks about it being the right of a woman's body, but I just don't see it that way. There is a lot more involved than just my body. It's the life of the child I'm carrying and it's part of the man that I had sex with. I think fathers should have rights, too. (In cases of consensual sex) I know that, unfortunately, abortion will never go away. So I hope that, with time, it will be a little harder to get one. I think the father of the child should have to give permission, that women should not be allowed to have multiple abortions, etc. I personally know a handful of women who have had 3+ abortions. That's just really irresponsible, IMHO.

If they can't handle the possible consquences, then no, they should NOT have sex.

There are a lot of posts talking about if you don't want to risk having a child, then don't have sex. It seems to me that some of you have the thinking that sex is only for procreation. Well what about heterosexual couples (because obviously homosexual couples can't procreate the"natural" way) that are unable to conceive. Are you saying that they shouldn't have sex?

Yes, I am a male.
 

I am a male, if I was having sex and got my (girlfriend/wife/drunken hook-up) pregnant, it would be my responsibilty as well.

You cannot use a group of deadbeat dads as a justification for killing a baby. Just becasue there are a bunch of men out there who are horrible people, it does not give women the right to kill their babies. Men of that nature should be castrated.

Where do you keep coming up with the idea that killing a baby is a right you are given? It isn't your body you are burninig with saline or vaccuming out into the trash, it is another human's. Yes, sex is for the purpose of reproducing. Who is this guy she is involved w/ that would let her have an abortion? He is cool with her killing his kid?

I am about to ask a serious question here, so don't get angry...

Why is it that when women want child support, it is a mutual child, but when they want an abortion, it is "their body"?

P.S.- Is it okay to argue this way? I don't want to get anyone too mad. I just feel it is worth the debate. I am stating my feelings.

Start a new thread for that one...
 

Lady Pi... Start a new post. This argument is too heavy already.