I feel you. Maybe "myopic" is a better term.

What happened to all the people who are against gay marriage? Can't you guys elaborate? cash78mere? Ginger? anyone?

i just want ot thank everyone for their support of homosexual marriage. it means a lot to me because of my family situation. i've been trying to figure out wedding invitations and what my children will call my dad's partner for years, and i'm not even close to that stage in my life. you all are wonderful, openminded people who ought to get all the rewards in life since you seem to offer them to all, no matter sexual prefernce or whatnot.

marriage = man + woman

I'd consider civil unions though

This is EXACTLY the problem. Marriage doesn't mean anything to people anymore. Marriage is for LIFE. I'm not even religious (I believe in God, but I'm not a member of any particular religion), so it's not that I'm against it because of the bible or whatnot.

My problem with legalizing gay marriage is that people don't value what marriage is anymore. I am getting married in a year and my future husband and I have discussed that we will be married for LIFE.... come what may, divorce is not an option. It is simply not. Even if, heaven forbid, we become morbidly unhappy - we have made our vows and those vows are to work it out. Both of my parents were divorced before they met each other, and remarried to have me. Both of them say that while they are much happier in their second marriage (yay for parents who love each other!!) that they are very guilty over breaking their vows and that they should not have married their first spouses. They taught me to value the vows I will say in front of the Justice of the Peace, and that they are not vows that can be broken.

If we're going to teach children (and adults) to learn to respect the meaning of what marriage is, we need to set limits on who can be married. Marriage is between a man and a woman who love one another and plan to spend their life together. Marriage is not between me and my brother, or me and my sorority sister. I may love them, and want to have them in my life forever, but marriage is not the venue for that. There are other ways to express that love... and it's not through marriage.

edited to add: I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this.... so flame on. I'm going to be away from the computer until tomorrow morning, so I'll reply to all RESPECTFUL questions/discussion then. I'm not going to reply to flames.

Ginger, you made some very good points. Even though we disagree, I can understand what you are saying. The institution of marriage needs to be respected. I think that marriage should be for those who respect their vows, are ready to make a lifelong committment, and above all else, love each other. These things can be fullfilled by anyone - gay, straight, whatever.

It makes me sad to think that a person could be dying and their wife/husband would not be able to be by their side because they are not married. That is crap.

And at the end of the day, God wants us to be loved, love each other and love Him. Period.

While I understand your comments, this is not what I meant.

I'm never meant to say that a homosexual couple would take their vows any more or any less seriously than the next heterosexual couple. My problem with marriage is that there are far too many people entering so lightly into a union that once was supposed to be till death do you part. Now it's until I get bored of you or something better comes along. In fact I believe that it is heterosexual couples that have made the mockery of "marriage".

I believe that if a homosexual couple is truely prepared to spend the rest of their lives together, then let them. They're not hurting anyone. If two people truely love each other and are willing to make that lifetime commitment, then I would like to see that happen. I DO NOT want to see a heterosexual couple get married because that what they think they're supposed to do.

P.S Sistermadly I think that's so cool that you were married by a lesbian feminist Buddhist

P.P.S OUlioness I want to wish your Dad and his partner all the happiness in the world.

You know, this is interesting, I've been talking to some of my homosexual friends about this topic, and you might be surprised as to what they and (according to them) their gay friends think. They in fact do not support gay marriage. I know what you're all thinking: "Whaaaa?"

Let me explain. While they all want the rights and privileges alloted to spousal couples, they all seem to agree that the label of marriage should be reserved for heterosexual couples. They would prefer to have a term specifically pertaining to homosexuals. It's more of a semantics issue, i.e. they want the same thing, different name, as marriage rights.


Anyways, whatever they call it in the end, those rights should be granted. No matter your personal beliefs on the "sanctity" or "Godliness" or whatever else, that has nothing to do with your fellow citizen's right to lead their life in the way that they choose. Rights should only be restricted if they are in some way harmful to others, and "my marriage is cheapened" doesn't cut it as an excuse. The real reason the conservatives are freaking out over this issue is that it will limit the ways in which they can control the lives of gay people. It's ridiculous that they can be refused parenting rights, tax benefits, inheritance rights, and as someone said, be prevented from visiting their loved one in the hospital! Can you imagine if your spouse was dying and you couldn't see them because "oh, sorry we don't grant your kind the rights of spouses, you'll have to wait for the funeral." ????? If you're still fuzzy on the issue, think of it this way: replace "gay" with Jewish, or German, or Black, or Arab, or Asian, or... Get the idea?

Just getting back to post
 

I'll bite LI84 :D My post is to everyone and in general terms (so when I post YOU, I don't mean you specifically, but in general).

Not legalizing gay marriages is NOT the same as telling someone what they can or can not do in their bedroom.

Someone earlier posted that " any reason to deny same sex couples the right to marry is somehow based in religion. Where do you think the whole purpose and idea of "marriage" comes from? That's right, the Bible, which is not a specific religion, the actual word of God.

Marriage is reseved for a MAN and a WOMAN.

Here are a few examples:
Romans 1:27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

These a few of the many SPECIFIC passages that state that marriage is between a man and woman -no matter how you try to interpret it, twist it, or even attributed it to the soceity back during those times (which by the was during the time when the Bible was written, homosexuality was rampant) the meaning is still the same.

Now, any Christian will tell you that homosexuality is sin no different than those who engage in sex before marriage or someone who committs murder. Neither one is more acceptable than the other.

There are provisions for gay unions. Just like a hetrosexual couple that lives together outside of marriage, there are "common law "guidlines that every state has. although I am not sure how gay couples fit into this.

Well, any Christian who takes the bible literally. I always keep in mind that the bible was orally passed, written, rewritten, translated, retranslated, edited, and re-edited by man. Man is fallable. And often the men of religion have had other agendas besides simply sharing the truth of faith. Just a sidenote...

But either way, rights of marriage, or the equivalent thereof is regulated by the government, which supposedly enforces separation of church and state. There can be no law that forces priests, ministers, etc. to perform ceremonies. But there must be a law that allows homosexuals to be legally joined by some sort of official. Christianity(and any other faith) does not and should not rule this country.

To everyone:

Anyway translated, the passages that I posted above read the same, even if you go back to the original translation. And if the whole "translation" thing is the problem, why can we not apply this logic to the rules and laws that govern our society?

After all, why is murder illegal? Why is it not ok to walk into a store and just take what you want without paying for it? What makes these acts wrong and according to who? These are all grounded in biblical principles, but yet there is no problem with it even if we are infringing on the rights of those people who believe that it is ok to murder someone or that it is ok to go to Kroger and steal.

In closing my point is basically to say that we (as people in general) shouldn't just pick and choose what parts/passages of the Bible to use and apply. Its not right to stand firm on the Bible when it comes to "love" using it as the gospel truth, but then totally ignore the other passages that make us uncomfortable.

Honestly, there is no middle ground with God or His Word.

This is why I believe that there must be some sort of government-sanctioned civil union for all couples. I have known too many gay couples who have been together for decades--and when one gets sick or dies, the other partner has NO automatic legal recourse.

About marriage being for life...why can't a gay civil union be for life? A man whom I respect very much in my profession has been with his partner for 65 years--more than any heterosexual marriage I know.

If a gay civil union "threatens" heterosexual marriage, what about a young girl who is a serial engager just because she wants to be a Mrs.? What about someone who has seven or eight ex-husbands?

She made some passionate declarations, but I'm still not clear on just how two men or two women in a committed relationship who want to express their committment in front of their friends, their families, and their God, threatens the so-called "sanctity" of heterosexual marriage.

I actually struggled with marriage before I decided to take the plunge. I felt like a hypocrite (there's that word again) for taking place in an institution that denied the most basic human right -- the pursuit of happiness -- to some of my nearest and dearest friends. I still rebel against people conveying status on me just because I took an oath and signed a legal contract.

A few weeks ago an estranged friend of mine contacted me. When we decided to start talking again, he told me exactly why he didn't come to my wedding. He told me that even though he was happy for me, and was thrilled that I'd found someone to love and share my life with, he couldn't make himself take part in something that he and his partner of nine years -- NINE YEARS -- couldn't share in. I was hurt when he told me, but I completely understood his position.

The woman who organized my wedding was one of my oldest friends -- and she's a lesbian. She was there with me through everything, from finding my dress to picking out the flavour for the cake. Her partner was our photographer. After one wedding show, she finally told me that even though was thrilled that I was getting married, every time we went out to do something for my wedding, she felt a little icy stab in her heart, because she and her partner of EIGHT YEARS couldn't take place in this social ritual.

I'm offended that something so basic as expressing one's commitment in MARRIAGE is held over gay people's heads as some sort of untenable, unreachable goal. Marriage is not some silly club where only the best get in. Marriage is not a Fraternity. If two people love each other and have decided to join their lives together legally, socially, romantically, and spiritually, the gender of those people shouldn't matter.

If those people who feel that the "sanctity" of marriage is threatened by gay men and lesbians, perhaps what is really in order is a revisitation of what marriage means in modern society. After all, with a greater than 50% divorce rate and the rise in infidelity and polyamourous relationships, it doesn't seem like us straight folks are doing such a bang-up job on protecting the institution.

Edited to Add: The gay male friend I mentioned above headed to Toronto last weekend to get married -- the day of the blackout! I haven't heard from him, so I'm hoping that they were able to tie the knot this week. They're actually immigrating to Quebec so that their relationship will be legally sanctioned. I can't say I blame them.

Honeykiss, that's great rhetoric for a discussion among Christians. But realize that your God is not everyone else's God. And in terms of government, it doesn't matter, because of the separation of church and state.

If I rob someone, I am taking their property. If I murder someone, I am taking their life. If I fall in love with another woman, that does not trespass on any of another person's rights. That is the fundamental difference. If you are looking to control others according to your personal faith and beliefs, you are living under the wrong governmental system. Theocracies work that way. Democracies were never meant to.

Yeah, as you'll see from my most recent post, I had a very Gay wedding. I even let gay men and lesbians line up in the bouquet toss line. ;)

I see your point Cloud9. Even with the whole seperation of church and state idea, our society is STILL based upon biblical principles that we use everyday, although now our greater society is now trying to undo that.

Sorry guys, and I am not anticipating changing minds on here, but I don't believe gay marriages should be legal. It says it plain and true in the Bible. And if I take the Bible for what it says on matters such as love, angels, etc. I also take it for what it says or other things that may be "unpopular" in todays society.

Thanks for the discussion guys!

Great Post

No they aren't. They are based on teaching of The Buddha.

In my post, I am refering to the laws of the US and the principles that they are based upon.

I am not saying that ONLY the Bible contains these two specific teachings, as I am sure there are others that probably mirror the Bible on this.

If you have believe that the US is based upon Buddha's teachings, please expand on your thoughts, with some point of references for further reading.

I had another thought to add(hopefully I'm not pissing anyone off, and I mean no disrespect to Honeykiss at all, I find the discussion interesting)...

For those who believe that the law and biblical mandate should be intertwined, what shall we do about the commandment, "thou shalt have no other Gods but me?" I suppose in that case belonging to a polytheistic religion would be illegal. Shall we shut down all the Hindu temples? Arrest the Buddhists? And those Jews, they don't recognize the true Messiah, they need to be penalized in some way.

Also, no translation of the Bible is "the real translation." There have been many studies to show that over the years there have been serious misinterpretations of passages. The only "real" bible(old testament anyways) would be in Hebrew. Before that, it was passed by word of mouth. Ever play telephone?
The new testament too, was not written until many years after Jesus' death.

It is one thing to lead your own life according to your interpretations of the writtings that dictate the laws of your chosen religion. It is quite another to tell everyone else to follow your individual understanding of existence and morality.

I really don't see anything wrong with gays/lesbians being married except for the fact that if they adopt children their kids might get picked on their whole life for having poop loving or clit licking parents, that in turn might flick the wrong switch upstairs by the time they're adults and they could end up killing motherfuckers inorder to get them back for such a disrupted childhood. Thats why I can't understand the whole "born" gay philosophy. What are they going to do if they get kids? How can you pick out babies who are gay that way they won't feel uncomfortable as they grow up in society and realize what their parents are is taboo. I'm ok with them getting married, but no children. That's just a sacrifice they'll have to make for being abnormal, and the fact that they're not the majority.

?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you come from Sweden, or Mars?

No offense taken at all with your post :)

In any civilized society there has to be a moral standard to follow. Can you imagine what the US would be like if we cancelled every law that even had a hint of morality in it.

Regarding other religions, they don't need to be penalized for existing. They have to obey the same laws of the land as I do. I am sure there are religions beside Christianity that are trying to influence their local and state, even national laws just as well.

But with that reasoning, we should also deny marriage rights to black people, because that would make the marriage rate go down and thus the rest of us will have lower insurance premiums and lower taxes! Or why not deny marriage rights to all non-Christians? Or anyone under the age of 60?

I agree with you that gay marriage is not just a "bedroom issue," but that's not a valid reason for keeping it illegal.

Exactly. The Bible is NOT the word of God. It is the word of God passed down through and described by many, many men.

Way too many people apply the Bible to just the parts of their life that they want to apply it to. I know plenty of people who condemn homosexuality while participating in pre-marital sex, and that is just crazy. If you're following everything in the Bible to the letter, that's great -- but I have yet to meet a Christian who is.

Although I disagree with everything you have said, I want to try to understand where you're coming from because I don't.

You take vows and marriage very seriously. Good for you -- I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. What baffles me is why you are concerned about how other people view their relationships. How does it affect you if other people get divorced or if gay people are able to marry? How does is affect you if other people don't take marriage seriously? How does that have any effect at all on your relationship or your life?

I just absolutely fail to understand why anybody here is concerned with other people's relationships and how they define them. When my divorce is final, what effect will that have on any other member of GC? None! Maybe some of you think less of me because I've broken my vows or whatever, but I believe that life is too short to stay in a relationship when you're not happy. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and tell all of the unhappily married people out there that they should get divorced because they are defiling the concept of marriage. Their relationships have nothing to do with me, and I think that people should be free to do what they want.

I think it's great to have things that you belive in very strongly, but I don't understand the desire to force others to fit into the mold that you have chosen for yourself.

Shocked? Why? For religious reasons? Political reasons? Moral reasons? Ethical reasons?

Wow. THAT was eloquent. :rolleyes:

Ah, he comes from Florida. 'Cause he's UFPike.

.


Wow! 1000 posts and you're not a moderator yet? I wonder whats holding you back?



Back to Topic now!

Valkyrie -

Please re-read the last (full size) paragraph of my post. That should answer all of your questions.

Ginger, I don't think that it answers any of my questions, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sverige...that was a funny post considering all of your gay pride posts of yore. Stop beating off to pics of Jordan Knight and come out of the closet already.

As far as the question goes...I just really want to know WHY ANYONE CARES what everyone else is doing. I mean like Valkyrie said...you all could get married tomorrow to a man, woman, tree, or kitchen utensil and guess what? My day would go on just as it would have otherwise. I swear people spend so much time worrying about everyone else...

People that come on here preaching (not anyone in particular here, just in general) need to understand that NOT EVERYONE follows the same value system YOU do. And is that judgment seeping through in the posts? I surely hope not, because as far as I am aware, that is a big no-no as well.

I don't have gay pride, who is Jordan Knight?

Good point that crosses both sides.... since both sides have been "preaching" the reasons for and against, right?

Score! My true love has always been a spatula, at last we can be together!

The dictionary on my desk defines marriage as "the legal union of a man and a woman."

I believe that marriage is a sacred union, and is between a man and a woman. Yes, it is because I am a believing Christian, and the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, not just a sin.

No, I'm not going to argue about it, so don't bother to bait me. Y'all have your own ideas; I have mine. The question was asking for an opinion, and I have given mine.

What about openly Gay priests and those still in the closet?


When I was a young boy and went to a Lutheran church, we had the same minister for a LONG time. Everyone liked him and thought of him as a guet mann. His wife was also one of my teachers and one of his daughters liked me. Then one week we were shocked to see him caught in the newspaper for being arrested for leud acts out in open with 3 other men down by a lake. They weren't trying to take things back before adam sinned, they were getting nasty. After that nobody went to that church anymore, his wife moved and remarried, I have no idea what happened to his daughters.


My point: you never know if someones gay or not.

Sverige, all i can say is that i myself was raised in a home like hte one you are describing as was one of my sisters and we were never teased or called any of the names you think we should be called. it doesn't matter if you have two mommies or two daddies or if mommie dies and daddy gets a new friend who happens to be a man. all that is important is the love that is apparent in the home. are you saying i hsould have been removed from my home and my father when my mother died because he finalyl accepted the fact that he was gay? i just don't understand where these ideas are coming from honestly. maybe i never will.

ginger~ i happen to disagree with you one one of your points. yes, people are devaluing marriage now, as can be seens by high divorce rates. however, i have seen marriages between a man and a woman last a little over a year or two and partnetships bwtween two men or two women last over two decades. they have the same love that men and women who marry do, and in many cases much stronger love, because let's face it...you havee to have a strong love and committment to stay with someone that many in society would ostracize you for.

honeykiss~ i respect your religious beliefs, but my thought was that Jesus died to forgive up our sins. as such, how can a forgiving and just God punish men and women for loving each other? I believe that God made his children, heterosexual and homosexual alike, and that he loves us all equally and wants us to be happy in the way we live our lives with our loved ones. i know that this is not the same position you hold, but i really wish everyone had the same oppurtunities in love and marriage that i do.

Very true. This is why we have been given the Bible as a Guide Book.


As for priests, if they are celibate, then they aren't in sin, are they? If they aren't celibate and are practicing homosexuals, then not only are they committing an abomination according to the very standards they swore to uphold, but their sin is the worse for leading others into sin, also.

The same would go for any clergy in adultery.