Tell me about it.... reports that were scewed by the media is one of the reasons that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded following the Somilia Incident.

However in this case both the Canadian and American inquires and reports placed the blame on the pilots and Mj. Schmidt in paticular. It was these reports that led to the initial charges being filled against Mj. Schmidt.... 4 counts involunatry manslaughter and 8 counts of assault; all of which added up to a possible 64 years in prison.

That possible sentence was scene as a little harsh even up here in Canada. Basically most of the families and military felt that if spent 2 years in prison and was dishonourably discharged that was fine. However as it stands he faces 6 months jail time, a dock in pay (which he is fighting the hardest), after which he returns to active duty with the Air National Guard. Quite frankly that is what has pissed off the most people.... along with the press confrences that his defense fund has held.... blaming "go-pills", blaming the Canadian soldiers, blaming the AWACs personnel, blaming the length of his breifings, blaming the "Air Force brass", blaming Canadian politics (this one changed alot following Canada's refusal to join the coalition), and blaming command staff in Kandahar.... in effect blaming everyone and everything but himself.

An update on the friendly fire incident.... for those that saw the earlier post about the history involving firendly fire....

CNCNewsworld is airing a program called aptly "Friendly Fire" on Witness... I recommend any and all that can view it to try to... it airs at 7pm Toronto time and I believe again at 1am Sunday, June 6th.

Yet another update...

The US Air Force has dismissed charges against Mj. Schimdt, and instead he will face administrative punishment.... are there any US Military personnel kicking around on the board that can shed some light on what this means?


While he faced 4 counts involunatry manslaughter and 8 counts of assault, which could have meant 64 years behind bars, that was seen as too harsh up here (military and media)... but I'm not sure if administrative punishments would be "good" enough either....

Personally I would love to see him actually publically apologise or admit that he made a mistake... like his wingman. The difference between the two pilots come-off like night and day... one lawyers-up, the other refuses and tries to go visit the Canadian base... one fights tooth and nail in court to keep his pay and flight status, the other resigns in a tearful statement.... one dropped his armament after being told to hold-fire, the other urged caution and held back... which too me comes off as one has little to no honour, while the other demonstrated considerable honour.

From the looks of it, Maj. Schmidt will probably get an Article 15 (after Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), which is administrative, non-judicial punishment. This can range from forfeiture of part or all pay and allowances for a certain number of months, restriction to quarters, correctional custody (basically a re-hash of basic training, only for enlisted), demotion or a reprimand.

To a first-term enlisted person, an Article 15 isn't too much of a career-ender; for higher-ranking NCOs and officers it almost always means the end of a career, because there is no way in hell that they'll get another promotion again. If they're close to 20 years, they might let them stay to collect retirement; less than that and you might as well resign your commission.

Yep... if I remember correctly, a picture of him shows him wearing both his Air Force pilot wings and his Navy Wings of Gold.

Maj. Schmidt gets his Article 15...
 

(Emphasis in text mine)

Well... looks like Maj. Schmidt just had his 'career dissipation' light go on. With his rank and an Article 15, he'll never see 'bottlecap colonel' (Lt. Colonel). Only thing he'll be flying is a desk until he gets enough reserve points to retire.

Well it took a little more than two years but.... some justice has been delivered in the case of the four members of the PPCLI killed in a friendly fire incident in Afghanistan.

However as seen in the post provided by AlphaSigOU there is still a some biterness... mainly directed towards Mj. Schmidt and his apparent inability to accept any blame or take any responsibilty for his actions.

Personally I'm happy that he won't fly again, and hopefully this will also preclude him from being a instructor as well... if he had accepted resposiblity I would have had no problem with him being an instructor... perhaps if he had demostrated the honour of the other pilot involved...

For another take on the story (well from the Canadian point off view) use this link to the CBC story:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/07/06.../schmidt040706

For something a little more indepth on the whole thing the following link is pretty good:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

Oh and here's a link to the text of the verdict:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/fr...e/verdict.html

I think the text speaks for itself (it's pretty harsh in its language)... and pretty much covers my feelings on the case.

I forgot to add... the LOR (letter of reprimand) becomes a permanent part of Major Schmidt's UIF (Unfavorable Information File). And since the LOR was issued by a general officer (the 8th Air Force commander) it's practically a kiss of death to a military career. If he was still on active duty, and too far away from collecting a pension, the next stop for him would be to file papers resigning his commission.

I wouldn't be surprised if later an Air Force flying evaluation board strips him of his wings - both silver and gold.

Stinger: "And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong!"
Maverick: "Yes sir!"

Maj. Schmidt ain't even getting that remedial opportunity.

AlphaSigOU I'd love to know what you think of the text... it always helps to have more viewponts posted on an issue. As your much more knowledgable on US military justice I'd love to here your take on the General's text.

(NOTE: This is how the U.S. Air Force does it... Army, Navy/Marines and Coast Guard have something similar but also somewhat different.)

Letters of admonishment take two forms: letters of counseling (LOC) and letters of reprimand (LOR).

A letter of counseling is in effect a "watch your ass, 'cause we're watching you" letter. This is usually given by the offender's immediate supervisor. They generally do not get filed in an Unfavorable Information File (UIF) unless a pattern of LOCs result in an LOR.

A letter of reprimand is much more serious, and usually has one pay a stand-up visit to the commander. An LOR may be given also as a part of non-judicial (Article 15) punishment. In some cases, the LOR stays in the orderly room file for a certain amount of time, usually until you PCS (Permanent Change of Station -transfer to another base), but most times an LOR remains in the UIF permanently, especially if you're an officer. Only the commander (or higher authority in the chain of command) can remove anything from a person's UIF.

Major Schmidt's LOR was written by the 8th Air Force commander, Lt. General Bruce Carlson, who was also the general court-martial convening authority in Majors Schmidt and Umbach's court-martial. Most LORs are written using a template following a prescribed method, with the assistance of the military's Staff Judge Advocate:

The person who signs the LOR determines the severity. By General Carlson authoring the LOR to Maj. Schmidt, it effectively kills an officer's career. There'd have to be a major (so to speak) killing off of the pool of promotable majors in the promotion board before the lieutenant colonel selection board would even consider him... and even then, they'd start going after the senior captains before they'd consider promoting (in the bluntest of military slang terms) a 'sh*tbag'.

Quoting AFI (Air Force Instruction) 36-3206, Administrative Discharge Procedures for Commissioned Officers:

Rob- did you really expect the Americans on here to take kindly to advice for America to play by the rules they expect everyone else to follow?

I feel for ya man- though I dont think anyone I know was ever killed by "'friendly' fire"- it's a sad tragedy.

Air National Guard... the same smart people as George Dumbya Bush...

Actually we don't use the term "friendly-fire" in Canada... I was doing that for the sake of the Americans on the board.. and because the Canadian/British term has some interesting conotations on this board... we use the term "Fratricide".

As for America following the rules... it's an arguement I have with every country including my own. It's just that the US has been a paragon of social and political change and empowerment that other nations looked to as an example to emulate... as such it is more painful for me to see that image tarnished by the actions of different administrations, in particular G.W.Bush's.

I don't want to touch your last comment... as I don't believe that all National Guardsmen could or should be tainted by the actions of Mj. Schmidt.. in the same way that the military as a whole should not be tainted by the actions of personnel mistreating prisoners... in fact I have to acknowledge the integrity of Mj. Schmidt's flight leader Mj. Umbach... he followed the ROE and tried to do the right thing, he also accepted resposiblity for the actions of Mj. Schmidt, as the leader of the flight, an act that Mj. Schmidt has yet to do. In short Mj. Umbach took honourable action, as I'm sure most officers would.. my beef was personally with Schmidt and his cadre of supporters that engaged in a fair amount of Canada bashing, as well as blaming everyone but the man how "pushed the button"....

Who in the hell are you?


Look - the guy who did this was, to use an ASigOU-approved term, a douchebag . . . but he was given what amounts to a career death sentence. Realistically, it was the extent of punishment allowed under military law (at least as far as I understand this court-martialling could have gone, correct me if I'm wrong). He's finished as an officer. We can argue if he 'deserves' more punishment, but realistically, this is about as harsh as this court could have dealt. What exactly would you have liked to see differently? (note that i'm setting a trap here, smart guy)

As far as belittling the Guard in general . . . well, hopefully there are guardsmen on here who can set you straight, b/c that's a total asshole statement. YOU are a douche for insinuating a lack of intelligence for all Air National Guard members.

He wants to marry you because you're gay but I keep telling him YOU ARE MINE!!!

-Rudey

Well it looks like my ol'friend Major Schmidt has given an interview about how he has suffered emotionally because of the firendly-fire incident.... and yet still has not apologized to the families of the men he killed:mad:

Disgraced pilot suicidal over friendly fire deaths
Maj. Harry Schmidt bares soul to magazine
http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmon...a-88dd979cff43
The above link included because it's local (for the PPCLI - the unit involved) coverage, and because it's free to access.


U.S. pilot who dropped bomb on Canadian soldiers haunted by memories
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...y_fire_schmidt
Personally I'd love to see the interview he gave to NBC...

War is also incredibly stupid. I'm not allowed to serve because of the medication I take but this asshole is a Captain in the friggin Air Force. I really hate my country sometimes.

Yes, this shit happens doesnt it?

I love Friendly Fire euphaisms!

No matter what is said, there are people Dead.

A bullet is not friendly, it is a killer and that it is why People in The Military are carrying Weapons. Weapons are made to kill people, plain and simple.

I carried a weapon for 7 years. I had God in my hand and it was not a thing taken lightly.

Yes with the termoul that is happening, I always figured it is better Thee than Me.

Been there and done it. If you havent, please dont try to second guess until you have looked down the barrel of a gun. It is huge no damn doubt about it!

If you never been in a shooting situation dont second guess.

People "normally" dont like to Kill People. It does weigh Heavily on ones mind.

I remember every wreck I was envolved in when I could have been killed, I can remember everytime I aimed a Weapon at someone. I still think about seeing someone burn alive because I could not get to them fast enough or scraping them off of the concrete.

"War Is Hell"

I want All of My Brothers to get back safely!:cool:

Something happened today, something that I have felt (and others) was long over due - a memorial to the soliders killed in, in the US... and organized by the US troops they served with.

4 Canadians killed in friendly fire incident honoured in U.S. service
http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/cpress..._fire_memorial
This is exactly the type of respect and memorial that would have served to lessen the pain and/or bad blood that the "friendly-fire" caused. The only thing better would have been an apology or even acknowledgement of guilt by "Schmidt that fuck'in sack of shit" <spit> (as he is officially termed in all messes... and also by Prince Andrew:cool: )

My only complaint was that it took too long to clear it with "higher-ups".

Brother Cooper, I too am releived for any final decision and closure.

But remember, in any fighting situation, the adrenilen pumps, the fingers are on stand by. The moment to fire is now, not later, later might be to late.:(

"Frienedly Fire" probably happens more than we all know about.

Heros are only in the eyes of The Beholders, not the Men/Women who did it.

Jimmie Doolittle, Greg (Pappy) Boyington, Sgt. York, H S Truman, Audie Murphy to name a few.

As has been Said, WAR IS HELL!

Ah the issue that never seems to go away - or in this case the ego of Mj. Schmidt that never seems to accept fault... Now he's suing the US Air Force for ruining his reputation and defaming his character :rolleyes:

Got news for ya buddy, I don't think it was the Air Force that ruined your reputation - I think you did that all by your lonesome...

Sounds to me it was a lack of communication in joint force expeditions.

I can't blame the pilot for dropping a bomb on an area that is known to be hostile with live fire in view. On top of that, it seems to me that the leak may have been done just to try and detract from those who are responsible by making it seem this pilot is totally at fault.

Again, I don't know the full story, and probably never will. However I do know that we have problems because our current system has soldiers using their commander's intent to accomplish a mission and sometimes they end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. When that happens, the situation is ripe for fratricide.

I love it when the communists come out to play. I am in the ANG and would go to war with an ANG unit over an active duty unit any day of the week. I am 24 years old and one of the youngest guys in my unit. Most of the people who serve in the ANG have served time active duty, are generally older and more experienced than active duty AF. I feel more secure working with individual's with 15-25 years of military experience than some 19 year old kid in the active duty AF.

To be fair, unless you are an officer in the AF....you will likely be a paper pusher or a mechanic. The pilots do the fighting and it takes quite a while to be qualified for that.

OK!

You obviously have no clue about the AF, the types of jobs that are in the AF, or the fact that the officers are major paper pushers.

We can take it to the next level and say that a CEO or a lawyer is just a paper pusher.

And also, you say that only the pilots do the fighting?? Well then how come enlisted airmen keep coming home in body bags?

Might be a valid excuse if that was the case... but dropping bombs over a live-fire exercise ranged used by all members of the multinational force (US forces used the range the night before), and within 2km of the base does make the guy look fully in the wrong...

Now to play devil's advocate - even if the fire was hostile, don't yah think the base/airport might have been calling in a enemdy contact/hostile fire report(s) - and notifying everyone in the area (and C&C)? The fact that this pilot observed the fire for some time, and that the AWAC had to check to see if there was any report of recent/on-going enemy fire that close to a protected (and still full lit) base should have been a big clue for the pilot.