So will you be getting rid of these CDs? Can I have them for free since they are pretty worthless to you? :D :D :D :cool:

lets not forget women too.

i like his old cd's - like joy - god's great joy, sweat beautiful soul saving joy . . i don't have the new stuff. i have silver and gold and the like.

Ummmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm so for real, give them to me.:D

ETA: This just started playing on my Launch station, but it's the Georgia Mass Choir rendition.

Wow. So if you feel this way, you might as well not listen to gospel music anymore, or go to church, or fellowship with other Christians. Because every last one of these people has sinned. There is no hierarchy of sin in God's eyes, sin is sin. But the good news is that God forgives us of our transgressions. So for you to pass judgement on him for a past addiction, that God has delivered him from, has me a bit confused.

but to each his own...

i'm not passing judgment. i'm expressing an opinion. my conscious would not allow me travel throughout the us and abroad for 20 years or more confessing to be christ like when i know i'm addicted to porn and sex. i'm glad god has delivered him and i know god is the one whom kirk will have to answer. i did not buy into him feeling convicted for 20 + plus years cause he kept on doing his thing. if i accept your view, i guess you discount anything your pastor do/does and have the mindset "he" is only a man. i say to each his own.

This is an interesting debate. I didn't see Oprah so don't know all the details of what was said. I just see Kirk Franklin as the "latest" imperfect person God is using to reach people. The Bible is full of flawed, broken people who did great and extraordinary things -- David, Solomon, Paul and the list goes on.

It's a hard thing to judge the contents of a person's heart, or even to understand why people do the things we do. As I understand it, Kirk's admission was unprompted, that is, he wasn't found out by anyone but came forward. I take that as a sincere expression, and still view him as a man of Godly use.

Tony, I love you. :o :D You better print this out too. :p

I watched the interview as well and really enjoyed it. I had heard Kirk briefly speak on his addiction on some TBN show previously, but not to this depth.

I agree with much of what the previous posters have said (CT4, Proverbs, Urbanized Skillz). Addiction and shoot, sin period, has a powerful pull. Wasn't it Paul who said "That what I would do, I do not, that what I shouldn't do, I do. Oh wretched man that I am!"? (badly paraphrased--I'll find the correct scripture) I think Paul spoke for every honest believer in that scripture because I think we have all said "I will never" to something and then ended up doing it, and feeling convicted about it. It could be as small as eating that extra peice of cake, to giving someone a piece of your mind, to yes, porn. The sin is all the same. That's why God gives us the opportunity to repent. If it was as easy as feeling convicted and automatically being released from certain stuff...whooh....let's just say I would not be typing this (while I am at work).

I would not discount anything that my pastor or any man of God does, but I do think it is about the mindset. Are they unrepentant in their sin? Justifying it and trying to make it like it was alright? The case I can think about most readily is Henry Lyons. When the whole deal with the other woman and the house and the money came out, he did not seem like he was repentant at all (TO ME) I know I can't truly judge him, only God can do that, but God did say to try the spirit by the spirit and that we will know them by their fruit and while I don't know his heart, I can say that I didn't see to much "sorry" fruit coming from him. He might be different now, I don't know.

Kirk Franklin did not have to share this with anyone, like someone else said, I appreciate his honesty. This tape should become required viewing in Men's Ministry meeting all over the place.

My husband used to get this Christian magazine called New Man and I remember reading an article that said one of the major hotel chains (can't remember if it was Hilton or Mariott) LOVED when there were Christian conventions because their pay-per-view usage fees for porn would skyrocket. It's a whole lotta folks doing stuff in the dark.

Sellout - lol - you're just trying to get in with the ladies.

I love you too. :)

And regarding the fornicating pastor, I did not date him because I did not want to be in agreement with his sin -- having sex with him when I know what the Bible says, etc. We also discussed Paul, Eclipse. :)

Eclipse, I've heard similar to what that article said.

I wonder how many pastors this Sunday will admit their struggles, not just porn, but anything they have struggled with.

I know. . . ain't he just the sweetest thang???? http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/love/love0047.gif

But I agree. I commend Kirk and Tammy for coming forward with that - I know it took a lot of courage to do so. I also realize that of course everyone isn't on the same page spiritually, and took notice of the statement that O directed to the counselor - "This isn't something that you can pray your way out of. . .". Now if Kirk had taken time to answer that, that could have been a whole 'nother show. Maybe SHE can't pray her way out of it, but the Bible does state that ". . . this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. . .". And what God does, he does well.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. . .

BTB, when Oprah said that I almost died. I said chiiiiiiiiile, you need to go sat down somewhere. I think Kirk did reply though to that and stated that there was prayer involved for him. I know Kirk had to pray on that addiction.

How many ain't trying to admit it and will continue doing it as long as "nobody knows"? CTfo' I wasn't directing this question at you, but just thinking out loud because of a situation that I'm familiar with.

I'm sure that there are many that struggle with things that no one knows about and are trying to do the right thing, but there are others that are comfortable in their sins and aren't trying to do anything about them.

Sorry - just kinda hit close to home.

Girl, you betta preach! God can and does deliver! People need to understand that God delivers in many ways though. Just like he heals some people of body ailments through doctors and others miraculously, he also heals these "mind and spirit" ailments through trained specialists (therapist and the like) and miraculously as well.

re Tony: don't cha just wanna hug him sometimes??? http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/love/love0047.gif

I know that it wasn't meant for me, but it is so true. Every year a scandal breaks out about a well known religious/spiritual leader. Folks get all up in arms and then others want to say see that's why I don't go to church and the whole nine.

I agree w/ your 2nd paragraph. I immediately thought of Passa Touch Hips.

Awww......

Not just for you CT, but here is the scripture I was thinking about. It's from Romans 7. Gotta love Biblegateway.
As usual, I jacked it all up: (NIV version for ease of reading)

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I know some pastors who will discuss what they have been delivered from (have heard pastors speak on drugs, fornication, spousal abuse,etc) but most will not speak on current sins, which I guess I kinda understand, that probably needs to be handled in a more discreet setting.

I do recall hearing a pastor (Jeffery Johnson from Eastern Star in Indy) talk about him and his wife fussing on the way to church one morning (and he was wrong as 2 left shoes!) and I wanted to get up and dance the holy dance! I thought me and my husband had to be the only Christians in America who did that! His real-ness meant a lot to me. He also said "it ain't right, but it's real". 'Course, he wasn't at his home church, but I have heard he does the same thing there too.

YOU couldn't do it because you sound like a mature Christian who is aware of how your actions should always reflect your thoughts and deeds. I don't know if you've always been where you are today but this is not about YOUR walk but Kirk's walk.

As Kirk started to become more AWARE of how his actions were in conflict with what he was doing he looked for counseling. The pastor that was counseling Kirk (& it was not just when he was 14) condoned his pornography. That's why he was conflicted cause how he was being counseled and how he was feeling didn't match. The fact that he is acknowleding this publicly just makes him more human to me (but it also points out how important it is to study the Word AND be more willing to question your leaders if they are steering you in a wrong way.)

While I was about to knock Oprah out for some of her comments she did make one great point there is a LOT of hypocrisy in the church. Kirk may take a hit from some fans who are too holy to deal with the fact that the man is not perfect but he will gain more from those who will get that testimonies come in all shapes and sizes.

There is a difference between having an ACTIVE testimony and being a straight up hypocrite. We have to discern between someone who is dealing with their issues and the false prophets who are spitting out bible verses and making money in God's name. Just because you've passed one test or have made the choice to be saved and doing God's work doesn't mean you will forever be left alone and all the sinning will be done by the unsaved. Its those that are saved that are constantly being tested (or targeted with temptations).

Everyone's walk is different. To make it more neutral - some people can quit smoking just by deciding they aren't going to do it anymore - some people quit numerous times before it sticks. It doesn't make the person who quit after the first time better just different - in the end they should both be healthier for thier new choice NOT to smoke anymore.

Lawd, BTB, I almost fell out when she said that. Made me want to grab my oil and throw it at the TV Screen. I was SO proud when Kirk fired back and told O and the conselor that "that wasn't my experience." I was like YES KIRK! Tell HER! Because I know for myself that the prayers of the righteous man availeth much!

But again, that's a whole 'nother topic.

I saw about 1/2 of the Kirk Franklin interview...
 

...and my hat goes off to him for bravely coming out and admitting his sin and what it took to overcome it.

On that note, I will confess this b/c you ALL are my longtime friends and I can say this to you without shame.

My name is Rain Man, aka Jason, and while I am a Man of God...

…I was also a longtime pornography addict.

It began when I was a kid, watching movies on The Movie Channel that I had no business seeing. Then as a teenager, watching more titillating material on late night HBO. Then the habit of masturbation began when I was 14 (yeah, I said it; tell the truth and shame the devil). By the time I graduated high school until the time I gave my life to the Lord 10 years later, I was practicing the habit on average, twice a day.

But wait, there’s more.

During my 2nd year of college, I bought my “first” pornographic magazine (while I had previously looked at a Playboy or Penthouse or Players magazine once in a blue moon, it had never done anything for me). But this time, it was different because now I was hooked, because I began to buy more and more and more. By my third year of college (1994), I was renting the occasional video, but by 1996 I was hooked on that too.

My spiral of degradation accelerated through 1997 and 1998. I was renting videos on average 3 TIMES A WEEK often renting at least 2 videos at a time at $5 a pop. And that’s not counting the magazines I was still purchasing. You do the math on how much $ I blew. And I was going through a bankruptcy at that time too. Romans Chapter 1 had definitely proved itself in my life (God giving you over to a reprobate mind).

By the fall of 1998 I had hit rock bottom. God had given me enough grace to take me out of my 3rd shift job I hated and get me a great running car at a steal of a price (I had owned 4 different cars in a one year period) and for His grace and mercy (mercy being getting me through a divorce and bankruptcy going on at the same time unscathed). In gratitude, I gave my life to the Lord December 6, 1998.

Was it all over? Hardly!

*to be continued*

PART 2
 

Although my habit had reduced to only once a day and the frequency of my buying magazines diminished (it was totally eliminated in 2002), I still had a LOT of work to do. God had to do a major spiritual cleansing in my soul and because of my longevity in such a sin, it was not an instant deliverance.

Nonetheless, my habit frequency as well as my video rental frequency also diminished significantly (I can safely say I no longer struggle with temptation to rent videos). But another bad habit was coming up on the horizon. Yes, the Internet.

In 2003, I got my first computer with Internet access, and got my first taste of Internet porn almost immediately. Staying up late night to all night looking at cyberporn became a regular thing and I was running up credit card bills (but thankfully I had the money needed to pay them off). In June 2004 I got rid of the Internet and my computer 6 months later. 5 months later (May 2005), I got another computer and another Internet hook up, and unlike the previous times, I began downloading pics and movies on my laptop to the point I had close to 7 GIGABYTES of porn on my computer (about 25% of my hard drive).

By this time, I had enough. My accountability partner whom I enlisted 6 months ago cracked down on me and told me to shape up. I installed a filter and accountability software on my computer, deleted the files, and now I am fully prepared to do whatever it takes not to go back to where I had been.

Lessons learned from all my years of sin:

My addiction was largely due to my need to anesthetize pain (loneliness, rejection from girls, abuse from my family and classmates at school).

I could not fight this addiction alone. Major victories were occurring simply by my enlisting an accountability partner to help.

I badly needed to get out and socialize and fellowship with others and overcome my fear of rejection. Sometimes my spending too much time alone would be all it took to fuel the desire.

Simply put, the social fellowship killed the addiction. The Word kept the addiction buried.

I wish more men with this problem would be bold like Kirk Franklin and step forward and confess it. That alone can make a world of difference.

BTW, if you wish to laugh at me or mock me because of my confession, I understand. But I also understand there’s nothing anyone can do to me what the enemy hasn’t already tried to do to me. I fought the enemy and the enemy lost.

Sorry for the book and while I did not mean to hijack the thread, I had to get this off my chest after all these years.

Blessings…

i started not to post.....
 

i didnt watch the kirk franklin interview with oprah. i actually love oprah but couldnt bring myself to watch kirk talk about his problem. ive read all that many of you have written and it has been such a blessing to read. i cant help but still feel like he should have kept his mouth shut. im not sure why i feel that way; perhaps its anger that people dont respect the sanctity of marriage anymore and do such selfish things to destroy it. maybe im probably am such an idealist that i put people who profess to be of god and minister to folks daily at a higher standard. maybe i feel like if i can bust my hump and work, take my licks and deal with the good and bad in my marriage and not resort to behavior that will/could destroy my marriage, why cant other folks. i am FAR from perfect, but have we lost all sense of moral decency and common sense?

it does take alot for a person to share a part of their life, their marriage in front of an entire world. im sure kirk and his wife will be a testimony to some. when your spouse is working through some mess of his/her own, you are suppose to support unconditionally, 100%.

thank you ladies for sharing HIS word. ive got some reading to do and some conversations to initiate with GOD.

@rainman--im not sure why you felt you needed to share your story, but i appreciate your testimony. stay strong!

btw, did anyone catch oprah yesterday? i just want to say than GOD for being in this country and for the choice to determine what happens to my womb.

I didnt see the interview, but I think its good that people share their stories so that other people who may feel like *insert issue here* only happens to them. I think people are beginning to trivialize marriage to some extent. People can profess to be of God, but all that means is that they are human and thus, will sin. I don't put anyone on a higher standard b/c then I would have to be there too, and I KNOW I can't do it. A good pastor is willing and able to admit his/her faults and pray for the strength and the willpower to over come them. Kirk may be a famous person and whatever, but he's still JUST a man, a father, a husband, a PERSON. His other "stuff" makes him no better nor worse than me.

I admire anyone who can be married, with children, in the spotlight and still make it work. I can admire people who say "I have XYZ issue and need help. I prayed and got this help in response."

So YAY Kirk for telling, YAY Tammi for sticking with and supporting him and YAY Oprah for sharing the story. :)

Re: i started not to post.....
 

Because just as Kirk had to courage to confess his problem with porn, it convicted me to confess my problem with it, and thus hopefully it will convict other porn addicts who were watching to confess their problem with it to their wives or accountability partners.

Here's the key to porn addiction: The secrecy of being hooked and not telling anyone. Once you confess it, you shame the devil and he cannot shame you with holding the addiction over your head like the Sword of Damocles.

One of the keys to spiritual victory is confessing your sin. That is why Kirk's testimony on Oprah was so powerful, particularly in light of the fact that he is a high profile gospel artist. If he is humble enough to confess he has a problem, it will convict others to do the same thing.

So let my testimony here serve as a representation of the seed Kirk planted in the men of God and prayerfully, deliver those unsaved out of their sexual sin and bring them to the living God.

In any event, thanks for reading, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Re: Re: i started not to post.....
 

i understand why you shared :). when anyone has the courage to share something so personal to be a blessing to someone else, it is a good thing. i thank you again for your openness.

Re: Re: i started not to post.....
 

I totally agree, and will say that's the key to any sin that's done "in the dark" - whether it is drinking, running around or anything else. Sometimes I think people believe that if no one knows about it, it's not as bad as it really is. You know, most times, we can rationalize anything to suit our needs.

Like darling1 said, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sure you're not the only one.

Cheating is not purely physical ...
 

Sorry I'm just responding...

Well, cheating (like abuse) is not purely physical - it can be mental - and I suppose it depends on the relationship. If 2 people have made committments to be loyal to each other, yet person "B" (male or female) looks at porn, yes, it's cheating. Why? Because while he or she is looking at the porn, they are definately having some some "not so nice" thoughts about whoever they're looking at. Hence the wanting or lusting after what he or she is seeing and hence the cheating part. Now - if they've committed to each other and he or she still does this openly - it doesn't mean it's not cheating. It just a matter of how much is the other partner willing to tolerate. In Christian terms - the other partner may believe that there is a destructive, demonic "spirit" behind the porn obsession - and may prayerfully stay with the person if they've repented (as in Kirk Franklin's case).

Now if 2 people have an agreement in their relationship where they can view porn, have intercourse with others, etc.... it's not cheating (ETA: in the sense of betrayal). It ain't right .... but it's not cheating.

Re: PART 2
 

But woe to the one that does. That whole statement was touching & deep. It was very brave of you to share your story Rain Man. To God be the glory.

Re: Cheating is not purely physical ...
 

exactly what is mental/emotional cheating? how can you honestly emotionally cheat with a non-responsive image on the screen? men are visual creatures, so this is appealing to us in the most simplest form.

Re: Re: Cheating is not purely physical ...
 

Especially if the 2 have agreed to make a committment to each other. So..... even though a man is visual - to purposely look for sexual stimulation - visual or otherwise is cheating.

Question for you - why wouldn't the person look for the stimulation in their wife or husband?

Re: Re: Re: Cheating is not purely physical ...
 

Excellent post, TP2! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Note: when men have been looking at porn and then get intimate with their wives (or girlfriends), men's minds tends to "wander" and they tend to focus on the nude images. And women can detect this because they can sense when a man is not focused solely on them. Women have described this as "the man is there but he's not there."

First of all, Romans 7 is powerful. It speaks to where I am right now. Really, where alot of us are.

I thought Kirk was very brave for sharing his story. I also just think his wife is amazing.

Oprah on the other hand...hmmm.

John Legend: Wednesday

It takes a lot of courage for people to be transparent with their lives especially Christians no longer can we afford to pretend- somebody may be delivered by your testimony! As Kirk Franklin and Rainman did, -many men struggle with that addiction- inside and outside of the church. Only through prayer and renewing your mind with the word of God will one be delivered. Keep on testifying and set the captives free!

Families trade race on 2/16/06.

I saw a commercial advertising the show....they showed the people pre and post change. It was interesting. Can't wait to see the show.

Re: Re: Re: Cheating is not purely physical ...
 

dang, i didn't even see this.

yea you bring up a good point, but yet and still...it's neither physical or emotional. we're human beings with feelings in our loins. porn is the extreme, but in the barest sense it's being turned on by someone who you find attractive.

I saw Oprah today with the two families. It was good. I hope more attention is paid to this show on FX and the accounts given on Oprah by the families of what experiences they had. Maybe it will shed some light on this crap that some folks like to say about this type of stuff never happens or we are just paranoid and what not.

I watched the beginning of it last night (DVR). The Indian version of people basically all looked the same to me.