Off campus
 

DOC has only operated as a 'recognized' greek organization at UCSC for 5 years. Before that, they held the exact same status they hold now. UCSC offers NOTHING to Greeks, and there is no incentive to be affiliated.

According to the UCSC Student Rulebook, they can get co-sponsored by another organization, and because of free speech, have access to ANY facilities on campus.. just like they did before. They can post flyers on campus, they can table, anything... (Limiting someone's exposure at a school known for free speech is a bitch)

The biggest tragedy here is DOC will no longer be able to say "Delta Omega Chi Fraternity at UC Santa Cruz."

Rumor has it that they didn't fight the losing of their recognition because they KNEW UCSC would find some stupid, pissant charge to release them on when the show aired, so they got the punishment out of the way early. Legally, the school can come after individual members now, instead of the organization, but UCSC has already demonstrated they will do both anyways, so DOC actually bettered their position.

Simply, DOC throws arguably the largest and best parties on campus. They run a free bar at all of their parties, and never charge. (to people 21 of course) They are the only org to promote events to non-greek students. (Booze Cruise, Formal, Party Bus) Now I'm not saying they are the best org at UCSC, but membership will never be a problem for them because ultimately they are looking to have the best time possible while making life long friends... and that appeals to a lot of people.

People get in trouble all the time at UCSC... the only difference is the nation was watching this time. Oh well.

It isn't quite as simple as some people seem to think. Getting your recognition revoked on our campus does have serious consequences. Without formal recognition from the Student Organizations and Advising Resources Office, no group is allowed to post flyers, do tabling, do any sort of fundraiser on campus, or utilize any on campus space for events. This is really hard when we don't have a Greek row or area where people gravitate towards to learn more about Greek life. Because of a paperwork error, my sorority spent our whole first year not being able to do any of those things, and our numbers suffered because of it. And, for what it's worth, DOC really doesn't throw the biggest and best parties on campus. All of their houses are on such watch by the police that all of their parties get broken up early anyway, and I really don't consider wet t shirt contests where the prize is a jug of Winners Cup vodka to be an exciting premise for a free bar. Beyond this, DOC now has to deal with the hostility of other UCSC students- and Lord knows, once we're dedicated, all kinds of shit can go down. Our sorority gets our flyers ripped down on a daily basis just because we're Greek-imagine the consequences of a group that has invited so much animosity. Beyond this, what organization will co-sponsor them? The only viable candidate I can think of is Alpha Psi local sorority, and I don't know that they would want to risk their affiliation with UCSC to do so. It's just a big ol mess that they brought upon themselves...I don't think all of DOC should be held responsible for the actions of a few, but that's just how these things end up working out. Who do you think UCSC is more worried about alienating: one local fraternity who's contributions to school and the community are virtually nonexistent, or the entire pseudo liberal population that UCSC is so proud of? Hope ya had fun boys, it's going to be an interesting year.

PS: part of the reason why this post may sound bitter is because I was one of those people who honestly believed that DOC was comprised of respectable, fun guys. I hate it when my perceptions of people end up being wrong. My personal thoughts on them: (as quoted from Mary Poppins)
"Though we adore men individually, we agree that as group they're rather stupid"

Re: Off campus
 

Gee, what will UCSC do without open bars at fraternity parties?

And since when does throwing the best party make someone a strong Greek group? Sure it can compliment an already strong house - but one that is out supporting their campus and contributing to the community, not BBQ'ing campus icons or harassing young women.

Well, being unaffiliated may not give me the behind the scenes info, but the student rulebook specifically says non-affiliated organizations CAN post flyers and have access to university facilities with a co-sponsorship from a recognized organization. I read that as, if another org, say maybe Alpha Psi, co-sponsors DOC they CAN still post flyers, table, and use facilities.. Is this not true?

UCSC 40.14
"Events involving use of university properties by organizations other than registered student organizations... ... must be officially co-sponsored by a campus unit or registered student organization, in accordance with the provisions of university policies and campus regulations and procedures."

From what I hear, I University likes to toot its big horn about how they can screw greek orgs over, but because UCSC is so tolerant of free speech and wouldn't DARE stifle someones opinion they can't just say, NO MORE FOR YOU!

As for UCSC liking DOC, I'm pretty sure the people who liked them before won't let a little fishy ruin their friendship, and the people who are all pissed never liked ANY greeks before. I mean did you really see everyone who was anti-greek coming out and giving DOC a big hug if the fish thing WOULDN'T have happened? Has your sorority done anything with the DOC boys lately? Were you planning to before the fish? My point exactly.

Lastly, I go to DOC parties and I have a good time. I have been to some other greek parties that weren't as good.. just my opinion. Cops are a fact of Santa Cruz, but I can say that I have been to more DOC parties that don't get broken up than do. Can you name another greek org that thrown as many large parties over the years? I can't.

****OH, BTW.. don't go getting that high and mighty morality tone with me, Ms. "Alpha Phi" ;)

Educated are you Greek?

I certainly wish those bylaws had been made more clear to us when we were struggling! I can only go by my own experiences with such things- and I know that even right now it's hard for us to be able to advertise/utilize campus facilities. There are rooms open, but once you mention it's for a Greek organization, oftentimes the space fills pretty quickly. It is usually only through the interference of the SOAR office that we are even able to have access to the same resources that other types of organizations have no problem acquiring. So I can only imagine how difficult things will be without the little faculty support that we have available. As for as parties...eh, I'm biased. Police breaking up DOC's parties has led to all of their party goers coming to our house parties, which resulted in there being too many people outside who weren't on the guest list, which resulted in the police showing up at our house and slapping myself and one of my sisters with a fat fine. They made very clear that, had they not had to deal with all the mtv/DOC drama, they would have been more understanding of our situation. That being said, I can see how people would consider them to be at the top of the party game. I often feel like DOC is doing this simply so they can live up to all of the stereotypes that people have pegged on them before they knew them. I suppose that's where my main problem lies. My sorority was founded in large part to work towards dispeling those rumors, so it's incredibly frustrating to me that now the general public is going to see such a distorted image of what greek life is. I guess I feel like DOC is being selfish, but really, I didn't expect more from them. And considering how little respect we have for them, and any other Greeks who so willingly participate in offensive and nationally televised activities, I wouldn't really expect them to have much respect for us either. Just my two (albeit lengthy) cents.

No.. but I'm one of those independent lifers who really should have been greek.. just never got around to it. :)

Some of the DOCs are my best friends, so I try to look out for their best interests.

Funny thing is, a lot of the points made aren't even incorrect. Don't get me wrong, the really mean stuff I will dispute.. but DOC really doesn't give a sh*t about 95% of UCSC because 95% of UCSC doesn't give a shit about them. They are down for no drama, no bullsh*t FUN and FRIENDSHIP. They are closer than ANYONE I know at UCSC, and they have the most fun.

People might knock it, but they are very happy with their situation.

Trust me, I know the Greek climate at UCSC.

I wasn't trying to act 'high and mighty', I'm just pointing out that great parties are great parties, but that isn't alone what makes a great house.

Brotherhood makes a great house and since they have that, more power to them.

I have no doubt that they're all about fun, friendship, and no bullshit. But they're not just affecting the 95% of UCSC who doesn't give a shit about them-they're affecting all of us. Beyond that, I hardly agree that they aren't about drama. I would go so far to say that they, as with many many many other groups of people, thrive on drama. From what I've observed, they love the stigma that they have- they love playing off of their reputation for being the crazy guys who don't give a f***. But they create drama all the time, why else would mtv film them? I don't really understand the high road that DOC and their friends/supporters seem to be taking. One of their members wrote to the local paper and stated that he was offended by the portrayal of Greeks in a recent article about the fish scandal. Hello....why do you think the general public keeps holding on (and publishing) these stereotypes- including but not limited to the use of the word "frat" instead of "fraternity"? Possibly because groups such as DOC keep putting themself in the public eye and perpetuating exactly the kind of behavior that they're renouncing. If that isn't drama, I don't know what is.

wishinhopin, i love the way you put that! they [doc] don't seem to understand that they aren't just affecting themselves.

what really surprises me is that one of their members wrote to the local paper about what happened and was upset! hel-lo!

I never read that article wishin.. what date was it?

Well, I couldn't find the article.. but here is my take.

If I was a member of the UCSC Muslim American club, and it turned out two of the members happened to be terrorists, I would be PISSED if my local paper ran things like, "UCSC Muslim Club turns out to be terrorists!"

I would then probably write a letter to the local paper if my ENTIRE organization got kicked off campus because of what two people did. If the paper was making my org out to be bad guys based on the actions of a few, I WOULD express my disapproval.

Let me just say, if this happened to the African American club on campus the NAACP would be down here in a heartbeat.

The two brothers could be hung from the bookstore balcony for all I care, but even IF DOC is all assholes I think they should sue the living shit out of the Regents. What they did was wrong.

Well put.

http://www.santa-cruz.com/archive/20...6/edit/let.htm

I can definitely see your point that an entire group shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few. But here's the catch in this situation (in my opinion anyway): Every single member of DOC knew that MTV would be following their every move. Every single member signed a contract saying that anything they did or said during the duration of the show's filming could and most likely would be aired on national television. Thus, every single thing that every single member of DOC did would in some way reflect on DOC as a whole. I don't think every single member is as stupid as Casey and Matt- but I also think that their brotherhood needs to accept that these two acted in ways that necessarily denegrated their entire organization. If those two weren't smart enough to realize that their pointless (and entirely un-funny) prank would bring negative attention to their fraternity, well, it kinda sucks to be them. Bad press and Greek image concerns are always a topic...some random member of the PETA chapter/Young Democrats/Ultimate Frisbee/etc etc etc on a campus dies of alcohol poisoning, the newspapers all console the loss and perhaps make a comment regarding excessive alcohol use on college campuses. A fraternity member dies of the same affliction, nine times out of ten the paper is going to mention it as some sort of Greek related death. These are stereotypes and stigmas...so perhaps DOC should have thought ahead of time to speak to their members about the potential risk their actions had. As the president of my sorority, I expressed my concerns about mtv's presence on campus before they ever got there. I explained that I didn't want to chance of our sorority's name being tarnished by faulty editing, a desire to impress cameras, and/or and group/individual stupidity. We voted not to interact with DOC or MTV at all during this period of time, because we respect our organization enough to protect our reputation. If DOC doesn't have that kind of respect for their organization, hey, more power to them, they're accomplishing all that they set out to do. If they do...maybe they should try to choose brothers who wouldn't behave in such a manner, or at least work harder to educate them on self aware and intelligent behavior. I guess my point is that we don't live in a fair world, and for any other type of organization, this sort of anger towards the group wouldn't have occured. But anyone with half a brain could have anticipated the cause and effect of such a decision, and thus I really don't have much sympathy for them at all. Don't invite cameras to film your every move if you're going to throw a fit when other people don't appreciate your immature activities.

GLO's and other clubs on campus are two entirely different worlds. Greeks are often held to a higher standard than everyone else...*especially* on campuses where there is already a very anti-greek sentiment.

Fraternities and sororities get suspended all the time, and most of the time it's because of what just a few members did...not what an entire chapter of 80 people did.

Here's a quote from sugarandspice replying to pretty much the same topic:

edited to add bold print :)

Hmm.. How can a brother write in to the paper on April 26th regarding something that happened May 19th? Amazing. He should have gone to a tougher school.... See, that is a PERFECT example of someone taking a piece of information that has nothing to do with something, and using it derogitorily against DOC. And then others, like people on this board, form opinions and say OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY ACT THAT WAY AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. All because you give them an invalid piece of information.

Just like the media too. I know Matt and Casey.. and guess what. They didn't confress to shit.. They didn't even plead guilty. The university TOLD the papers they had the guys to quiet everyone down. Matt and Casey supposedly stepped up to take the pressure off DOC, which didn't work, but I would bet my dollar they get off scott free. We'll see.


Regarding the rest of your post, that is absolute horsesh*t. Your brother acted immaturely, and because you are held to a higher standard, you are suspended too?

You keep mentioning cameras, but what I am talking about has nothing to do with cameras. SIMPLE: Two students violated the UCSC Student handbook (And that law.. but that is the criminal side of this). They were found in violation, and the ENTIRE org was kicked off. If they made their decision BECAUSE of the cameras, well thats a well known thing called discrimination. UCSC loves that word.

Sign contracts or not. Put your image our that or not. WHATEVER. Supposedly MTV doesn't even want to use that footage, but we'll wait and see. You seem to be blinded by the fact that MTV was filming DOC, or that they are assholes, or that they signed whatever, but you are missing the fact that an entire HOUSE got the severest punishment for the actions of two.

If I was a brother who happened to be sleeping that night, or out of town, etc etc.. I would sue the balls off Chancellor Greenwood.

If two of your sisters, over the summer, got caught shoplifting and Macy's and the University said "lets not take a chance, there is a lot of attention on us already" and booted all of you, after ALL of your hard work, you're telling me that you would say "Oh well, I should have been more responsible when determining the character of my sisters..."

Right..

Ummmmm.... that's a TOTALLY different set of circumstances.
In your hypo, there's no TV camera following the girls because they are members of an organization. They weren't representing their organization when they got caught shoplifting.
The two members of DOC in question were representing their organization when they got caught. Of course it can be argued that they weren't representing DOC, but the fact is the MTV cameras were there BECAUSE they were a part of DOC. Had they not gotten caught on camera and acted outside the realm of DOC, then this may not be the same scenario. But they were, and they knew that they were, and that's why the uproar.
I hope that you can understand, even though you're not Greek, why all of us get so upset about this. When something like that makes headlines, it affects each and every greek out there. It makes us ALL look bad. This MTV Fraternity/Sorority Life has done a decent amount of damage to the reputations of greek life in the general public's eye. Hence why we also get upset when some other chapter of some org does something stupid that gets headlines- because it affects us all, on a daily basis.

Educated -
You present an interesting point of view, but I have to agree with Texas Princess that GLO's are completely different from other campus organizations. Want to talk about discrimination? Perfect example. One student drinks himself into a coma one night while off-campus with non-fraternity friends. Next morning the headline reads "XYZ fraternity member dies of drinking related causes". A sorority member gets into a fight at a downtown bar with her ex's new girlfriend? "Member of ABC sorority arrested". A brother gets arrested for cocaine possession in his home, now rumor is that ZYX fraternity members do coke.

People (especially those not in Santa Cruz) don't neccesarily remember 'Matt Cox and Casey Loop', they hear and remember DOC fraternity members. That doesn't sound right to you? Two members can't be responsible for the entire reputation of the organization? Exactly. But you know what? That's an issue that greeks across the country deal with every day.

I asked you at one point if you were in a Greek Organization, but you never questioned me why. Hanging out, being close friends with, and partying with people is one thing but when you actually join a GLO, you are not simply adding a group to a list of associations you are a part of. You become a part of the house, and the house becomes a part of you.

You hear Greeks everywhere say 'I'm a Delta Gamma' or 'I'm a Sigma Chi', not 'I joined this organization called Delta Gamma'. You become a part of something bigger, and one of the risks is trusting your brothers and sisters to act in a way that you yourself want to be portrayed. In Alpha Phi, your membership can be put under review if you display 'character unbecoming of an Alpha Phi', because if one is acting in a way that makes the entire organization look bad, steps must be taken to protect the greater whole. When you join an org big or small, national or local, your reputation at the hands of others, and you will have to pay the consequences for another brother or sisters actions (for example, losing your chapter or being judged as a member of the 'coke house').

Discrimination? Yep, and it happens everyday.

Educated: You are more than welcome to your own opinions, as I am to mine. But before you take my statements out of context, or respond to them so rudely, please consider how uneducated your previous post made you sound. This is a discussion forum, not a place to trade insults.

In reference to the newspaper article- nowhere did I say that DOC's fish incident was the instigating event for that particular article. I was simply stating the irony behind the situation- their members are so concerned with the perpetuation of false titles and stereotypes, and yet their members perpetuate these exact same things.

I don't particularly care what Matt and Casey did or did not admit to...if they were responsible for these actions, as all sources I have read have indicated, then I think they should be punished. If they aren't responsible, I truly hope that their good name is cleared.

Never did I say that I think it's right that the whole group is being blamed for this, only that I can understand the University's position on the matter. If it were any of my sisters, I would of course be upset about the injustice. But none of my sisters would have signed away their right to privacy, or invited the level of attention that DOC petitioned MTV for. By asking MTV to come here, DOC put themselves on the line, plain and simple. Of course UCSC isn't happy about this, of course UCSC is going to take the strongest possible action against them. Combine these facts with the rumors (true or untrue) that DOC caught that fish and then cooked and fed it to their pledges- now that's a whole fraternity activity.

We chose our sisters based on qualities that we consider to be important- intelligence, common sense, and respect for our organization among them. We have taken the time to all come to agreement on what sort of fun is appropriate, and what isn't. We've made our mistakes and learned our lesson, many many times. I hope DOC has learned theirs. It isn't my place to criticize their choice of members, or what activities they feel are appropriate to engage in. I'm trying to point out the others side of your story- that it isn't just some huge conspiracy against DOC. What they did had tangible consequences, and that's something they have had to deal with.

If DOC had not, for instance, worn the t shirts that they did, or if they didn't throw their booze cruise quarterly, or if their website didn't have a video of a bunch of drunk people acting stupid- maybe UCSC would have had more tolerance. But everyone knows that our school hates Greeks, and in order to balance that out, we don't have the option of necessarily being as wild and crazy as other schools might. Yes, it sucks. I wish all the time that our Greek system was more expansive, and our faculty and peers more open minded. But this doesn't seem to be the right battle to pick to try and fight against those injustices. No, it isn't fair: I've said that before and I'll say it again. If you want to change the system, by all means, go for it. But here's a suggestion: if Greeks aren't happy about the treatment they are receiving, or the higher standards they are set to, there are better ways of changing the status quo than by protesting the backlash when your brother does something illegal and moronic.

And to anticipate your next comment- Nope, I don't like DOC. My interactions with them have proved to me that as a group they aren't worth my personal time, and certainly not my sorority's time. On an individual level, some of the guys are cool, and some of them I truly dislike. I have found them to be rude, disrespectful, immature, and not holding the qualities that I respect in people. But those points aren't particularly relevant to this conversation. I'm posting on this thread because their actions necessarily affect me, and my sorority. I have spent too much time and effort to simply sit back and watch while DOC behaves the way that they have been. I can't stop them, and I know they don't care what I think at all. But I don't want anyone else to mistake my opinions, or those of UCSC greeks in general, to be in congruence with DOC. I dislike considering that people will watch them on MTV and think that other orgs on our campus are like that, or that they are what fraternities are all about. So I'm posting here, in an effort to at least know that my opinion has been voiced. I have tried VERY hard to be fair in my considerations of this situation, and to not let my personal opinions affect my judgement.

Educated, you seem to be taking my comments very personally- it's fine that you're friends with them, but try to step outside the box and look at this from some other points of view please.

HUGE applause to wishinhopin.
What a well written, soundly thought out post. Very calm, ladylike, professional, and profound! Go you!

I agree

KDDANI: Just so you know, there is no footage of the theft taking place.. The act didn't take place while engaged with MTV.

Wishin:


You did make mention of that article, but whatever. We'll just leave it at respectfully disagreeing.

Bottom line is: If DOC is off campus, UCSC has less control over them, they don't have to participate in Formal Rush, don't have to worry about UCSC getting them for hazing like in Buffalo, and doesn't have to worry about ANYTHING from UCSC. People will still know DOC, and when someone says what fraternities are on campus the little "DOC but they aren't recognized by UCSC" will mean nothing to anyone who woulda rushed DOC anyways.


If DOC is readmitted, then they got away with all of this and they'll get a big jolly laugh..

Until the next issue.. :)

So, if they were originally a local, and are no longer "recognized" by any official organization, how do they get insurance? Are they incorporated?

I don't think I'd want to be in their position in any way.

If they can get coverage, it's got to be incredibly expensive. If they don't have it, they're just plain stupid.

Lol.. insurance is one of those things nationals convince you ya need.. and because all of your friends are paying $450 a semester, you just go along with it too.

There will ALWAYS be personal liability no matter who/what/where you are.. so just be careful.


Please.. I do NOT intend to start an insurance liability thread here.. if you disagree with me, which Im sure everyone who has paid national dues towards insurance will, ok... you win.

Besides, DOC has not had ANY charter/incorporation/affiliation etc ever.. They have survived 13 years, on their own. That sort of insight needs to be understood to truly understand how DOC feels about this whole situation.

Educated,

Sorry, but personal liability won't cut it if a pledge or someone else is injured or killed or whatever.

Simply look at some of the legal actions on these other threads in this forum.

And, I thought they were recognized by the university until now. Is that wrong?

With all due respect, your comment about insurance being something Nationals has "convinced" us that we need shows a real lack of knowledge about being part of an organization. It is simply too dangerous for everyone involved if not covered.

You've gotta CYA.

I apologize for contradicting myself, I didn't type exactly what I meant in that first post regarding the newspaper article. I appreciate your respectful fact pointing out. This part is said in all honesty and not meant offensively or snobbishly at all: I think that there is, to some degree, a portion to being Greek that non-Greeks just can't understand. From the outside, Educated, for example, can see that they are a great organization that is true to eachother. But even as one of their best friends he isn't privy to their rituals, their bonds of brotherhood, their secrets and their lifelong connection. And I think that has a whole lot to do with why this matter may seem more trivial to some non-Greeks as opposed to Greeks. I know that, once I was fully active in my sorority, I became a part of a whole huge Greek system- not just Nu Beta Omicron, not just UCSC greeks, but all greeks everywhere. It's an facet of society, with its own standards of behavior, its own priorities, its own set of values. Maybe those of us who take our sister/brotherhood to be a part of that larger system find it easier to reflect on how the actions of a few can affect the whole. I feel like I do have some insight on this matter- after all, those of us who are Greek did live a good 18 or so years (at least) without being Greek....independents were never and presumably will never be Greek, so I don't expect them to comprehend the nuances behind what I'm saying. This is NOT to say that it's better to be Greek rather than not, or that my sorority or whatever is better than anyone elses. I think that maybe all of us taking the other end into account will make it easier for us to communicate....now don't I just sound like a psych major? :p

Well I think that was my point...

If being Greek is that special, as a collective whole of all greeks everywhere, you sure turned your back on those 26 brothers in DOC who had nothing to do with this incident pretty quick. Yes they signed contracts, but probably because they DID want to show a different side of Greek life. Two of their brothers fucked up, and everyone turned on them. Including their Greek "families" at UCSC.

Educated, I can see how you would feel that way. But did you consider that we felt that DOC had turned their backs on us by participating in this tv show? Their website, their actions, and their attitudes don't appear to point towards them trying to show anything besides the stereotypes of Greek life. My interactions with them and their group actions (not just Casey and Matt, but all of them) have all served as evidence towards one opinion- DOC loves being that stereotype.

I know that they are close, and they have an awesome brotherhood...but they have never had a problem with being the party fraternity, and they've always enjoyed that their local status afforded them the independence to not answer to an authoritative/influential section of their organization. That's fine, I'm more than happy for them if that's what they want.

But I don't think it's reasonable to expect any other Greeks to give them unquestioning, unwavering support in light of all the facts involved in this situation. I pledged to love my sisters unconditionally- not a group of guys who I personally feel have made a mockery of of our already fragile Greek system at UCSC. They certainly haven't made the effort to support or even be polite to us- I don't think it would be fair for them to expect in return what they don't give out.

But here's my real question...Educated, you've made a big point about how little DOC cares about what others think of them, especially UCSC. And you've also pointed out that they don't care about their disaffiliation from campus, and they don't care what people think about their mtv involvement. So why do you care so much? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly curious. I know that I'm arguing these (often moot) points because they are very real to me. The effects of their actions have been felt by myself and my sorority, and I'm sure this will only increase as these next couple months roll by.

But does DOC really need someone to stand up for the honor that they themselves have disavowed? While I recognize that you have personal knowledge regarding DOC, you're also on this thread arguing points that you really know little about. Being involved in Greek life gives you a range of experiences, emotions, and information that you just aren't privy to. And, your comments have indicated that you don't really care about Greek attitudes beyond those of DOC. So why are you pushing these uneducated views?

If you honestly want to learn more, this is a great place to do so. But you're not going to get much support from people when you try to tell us how we should or should not feel, or when you tell us that aspects of our organization are pointless things that we just pay for because someone tells us to. You know nothing about these things- and that will be quickly pointed out every time you make such a comment. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, I really do wonder what your motivations are...and I wonder how open minded you care to be about all these things you haven't experienced.

It sounds to me like you want them punished because they went on MTV. You didn't even mention the koi.

I think the whole koi incident is just an excuse to punish a fraternity that went against the school's wishes and went on MTV.

I think madmax has made a pretty accurate assessment here.

Last year a fraternity at UCSC was involved in a fight in which a man was fatally stabbed.

These guys killed a fish and they received more bad press than the fraternity that was involved in stabbing.


http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ighlight=asian

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/arc...es/02local.htm

Also a cautionary word:

IT is both presumptious and pretentious to fervently maintain the attitutude that people that are not Greek should not comment on Greek issues because they can't understand them.

People are speaking about being Greek as if it causes the growth of some new sensory organ that permits feelings and experiences that other non-greek humans can't have. This is not true.

And to use that untrue concept to outright dismiss and/or trivialize the viewpoints and insights of others violates the spirit of free discourse as well as being an inferior way to argue.

When doing this the argument becomes more about diminishing the person in order to win a point. Its a classic ploy to say, "you just can't/don't understand" to dismiss someone's arguments that people just don't want to hear or have no real good answer for.

I see on one ever telling a non-Greek that Greek Life is beyond their scope when they are speaking in praise of Greek Life.

When all that happened, the fraternity in question did get a lot of bad press too. I think it's crazy you're implying that they didn't, and the ones that killed a fish did.

I also think it's crazy that you think these two incidents are the same, because I don't feel they are.

DOC petitioned for MTV to go to their school and document their fraternity which caused an uproar at the school. And to top all that off, they wear the offensive shirts *and then* kill a school's pet *while* they are already in the spotlight?! And they expect to be shown the upmost respect?

I'm hearing everywhere that DOC wanted MTV to film them to show the outside world that fraternity life wasn't all about the sterotypes? Hmm.. well they did an awesome job from what I hear :rolleyes:

The fraternity that was involved with the stabbing did get bad PR because the fight incident, so to say they didn't would be crazy. They probably didn't get *as much* as DOC has, but if you think about it, DOC was already in a very controversial spotlight.

Sigh. I knew I wasn't going to be able to word that last statement in a way that conveyed my thoughts appropriately. I don't want them punished because they were on mtv- but I don't understand why people feel like we should support them for doing so. I didn't mention the koi in that last post because I was pretty much tired of finding new ways to say "fish killing". It basically makes a bad situation worse in my opinion. And they never wore those shirts previous to mtv's presence, or killed a koi fish, or anything to the extreme extent that has occured in recent months. It seems to me that mtv's presence is related to this upsurge in offensive activities. That, to me, is intolerable. Aside from being completely moronic, are they doing to impress cameras, or to further support their reputation as the crazy party guys? If there's another reason, I would definitely love to know what it is. Doing something stupid because you made a mistake- that's human, and I don't think anyone should be reamed because of it. But doing something stupid for the above reasons just doesn't deserve the same tolerance, in my humble opinion.

Nor have the members of DOC seemed to have any actual regret about how things are going...a point which I felt was reiterated by Educated posting on here about how little the organization cares about what other people think about them. I realize they could regret it very sincerely and just not express it, but it's hard for me personally to trust that coming from a group that has continously lied, been disrespectful, etc. But not everyone has those same experiences, so I don't expect anyone to trust my opinions on the matter.

And to be honest, I think that level of press DOC has received on this matter is ridiculous- in large part because it is a more unique act than someone getting killed. I think that a human death is much more of a tragedy, but you hear about that in the papers every day. Media is designed to attract attention, and the best way to do that is with something suprising and different. And, for what it's worth, the main fraternities involved in that fight mentioned were from San Jose, and there was a great deal of press coverage.

Ok, the point I most wanted to express. I definitely don't think that being Greek puts you in a position where you can learn/feel/experience things that others can't possbly understand. I do, however, feel that any experience can open you up to new opinions and new viewpoints...part of what makes all of us humans unique is that we each have gained different things from different activities. But I think that it isn't automatic- if you choose not to join a Greek organization, there's a good chance that you aren't aware of many of the facets of that experience. If you want to learn, of course I feel it can be done. But if you're going to dismiss these things-like the poster Educated has seemingly done-then I don't see how you can truly understand. Being a part of a sorority has changed my priorities- I have come to a point where being involved in this organization is more important to me than I ever would have anticipated. Before going Greek, so to speak, I was one of the people who was very wary of the whole thing. I didn't see what could be that amazing about the experience. And I don't feel that I was ignorant, or naiive, so much as just lacking that experience. Why would it be such a priority for someone who isn't involved? And surely people who aren't Greek can understand why those of us who are might be upset at negative stereotypes of Greek life perpetuated. Buuuut...I wouldn't look down upon them if they didn't, because some people need that personal factor and involvement to truly know. I feel so frustrated right now because I work SO hard to be openminded, and closedminded people frustrate me more than anything else. For someone to interpret my own thoughts and words as such as very disconcerning to me. So, I apologize if I was offensive and/or elitist. I'm honestly making an effort to understand the points of view behind other people's words, and why we keep disagreeing.

The Fraternity involved in the death, where eight members went to SJSU and someone was stabbed to death, is fully recognized by the University.

DOC, where two members ARE ACCUSED of killing a Koi, is not recognized.

Rumor has it the judicial affairs officer said, "Well it is more serious because it happened AT UCSC."




Anyone who is intelligent enough to make it into college can see UCSC was more harsh on DOC because of the media attention. That IS discrimination. Blame DOC for bringing cameras or not, UCSC was biased because they wanted to look like they had things undercontrol.

Oh, on a very, very, very, very, very side note...

Everyone knows 95% of Freshman girls are skinnier than upperclassmen. The shirts are one of those TRUTHS that people probably SHOULDN'T mention, but there is nothing incorrect or slanderous about them. I can be JUST as offended by a "Free Palestine" shirt if I'm Jewish, but all of a sudden these shirts are EXTRA offensive.

It's just like how attractive women people are STATISTICALLY more successful than unattractive people... its just a FACT. Now you can blame them for wearing them, but you'll have to blame EVERYONE ELSE that buys one this Fall when they go on sale. (BTW the Fraternity isn't selling them.. so don't go there.)

You can even get upset at me for pointing this out, but lets try to be objective and not get offended by these certain "truths"



(Sidenote to the sidenote)
Survey 100 women, and ask them all to list on a scale of 1-10 how offensive the shirts are. Overweight and unattractive women WILL find the shirts more offensive than attractive women. ITS A GUARENTEE. I'm not saying its right.. I'm just saying its TRUE.

I should have been named TheTruth.

So what if 95% of college freshman women are skinnier than upperclassmen women... the same holds true for guys.

Most all guys I know now were skinnier when they were freshmen, but you don't see sororities wearing shirts that say "Freshman guys -- get them before they have beer guts"

How about "Freshman guys -- get them before they think they are the smartest dude ever" or "Freshmen guys -- get them before DOC does"?

Now you're talking!!! Make a shirt!!

That is the attitude to take.. not OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT!

Educated, were you trying to alienate people (especially females) with that post, or is that just a side effect?