If APO was to use that standard, I can think of a LOT of my chapter brothers who would never have been allowed to pledge, much less become Brothers. I'm including myself in that group, too - when I went to my first rush event I only knew one person in the chapter - she was an acquaintance. I got to know and became close to several brothers during my pledge period and my time as an active. I don't think it made me less worthy as a pledge or a Brother because I didn't have a bunch of BFFs in the chapter before I joined.

Pity-party for one
 

As an active alumni volunteer on both the sectional and regional level, advisor to two different chapters and currently am a sponsor to an extension group, I have seen this first hand in several situations. I advised a predominantly black co-ed chapter for 5 years, and guess what? Every semester they tried to emulate NPHC groups with selectivity, all they got were people who were really good at putting up a fake and then disappearing the next time the Alphas or Deltas or whoever were running a line. The semesters they did it the right way, by putting out there that they're not like these groups and everybody who wants to try to be of service gets the opportunity to pledge, placed the standard of what is expected before them to attain active membership, and treated them how an APO pledge class is supposed to be treated... those were the semesters that people stuck around because they spent a semester thinking if APO was the right group for them.

So yes, I have seen it done that way, and I can say with multiple data points to back me up that it does not work with our existing structure and policies on the vast majority of our campuses.

You have a very serious misunderstanding of what it means to be in a fraternity, my friend, and I'm beginning to think that you would be the person who joined for the wrong reasons.

If you prefer to dismiss that as rhetoric, that's fine because I can't control what you think, no matter how horribly misguided and wrong it is. The pledge program IS the vetting process. If you can't or won't understand that, then APO *really* is the wrong group for you. We select, just on the back end. If someone comes up to pledge review and doesn't have their shit together, they've got questions to answer as to why, and if they can't get it done in time, they're invited to try again. If they've got it all done, then our national policies dictate that you need to have a much better reason that "I just don't like you" to not initiate that pledge. If you can't follow national pledging standards and policies because you find them inconvenient, then you truly have no respect for APO and I'm wondering why you haven't taken the recently-implemented option to resign your membership if you find our policies so detestable. I'm sure Judy and Bob would be able to process that for you in a timely manner.
I do. I call complete bullshit on someone who talks about how dedicated they are to APO out of the same mouth that is telling me that they have done absolutely nothing with or for APO in almost 10 years. It rings incredibly hollow, indeed.

And when was the last time you contacted or did anything with them? I'm guessing it's been quite a while since AGT is inactive and Rho Theta's website hasn't been updated since 2002.

That's great and all, but your resume is about 10-15 years out of date. What have you done for APO lately? Are you aware of a huge shift in how students think about volunteerism lately?

No disrespect to the women of GSS, but that has absolutely nothing to do with APO, so that isn't even germane to the discussion. But I digress...

And that happens. If you care so much about APO, why didn't you restart it? Why didn't you seek to improve what you saw as not meeting your needs? It sounds to me like you weren't willing to invest the time to make it better, and that you were hoping for someone else to do it for you instead of being a leader yourself...

So you weren't of use to the section at that time, or the section chair failed to contact you (which happens all too often). When I was a section vice-chair, we turned down alumni who it was felt would not make good sectional volunteers for a variety of reasons. I just talked to a recent alum of a chapter in my area who wants to go be an advisor for the same chapter she just graduated from. I advised her against it, because she would not be a good fit for the role, and invited her to try a different chapter in the area or to wait a couple of years and get her life in order first.

I hope the irony of saying we need to tighten up our standards on who we allow into our brotherhood in the same thread that you are complaining that you were not selected for Sectional Staff after asking only once is not lost on you. I guess you just didn't want it bad enough to actually work for it...

Oh boo hoo, so you weren't picked to present at the one national convention you volunteered for. I have attended 5 conventions, of which 4 were as an alumni volunteer. I have only presented twice at a nationals, and both were LAUNCH courses. I have prepared other workshops that were rejected at all three levels. What did you have to present? Was it something you saw of value to the students, but they didn't? Was it for something that they already had a much more qualified presenter lined up already?

None of this gives you the right to bitch and moan the way you do. It barely gives you the right to throw a pity-party. Again, I say: you knew what you were getting into when you joined. You knew that we do things differently because we're different. You had almost 3 months to decide if this was going to be the right group for you. Yet, you joined anyway and took an oath. If you don't want to live up to your oath, fine. I also hope the irony of complaining about people who leave APO right after pledging at the same time you talk about leaving APO yourself is also not lost on you.

That would be a moderately impressive resume if it wasn't horribly dated by almost 9 years. I believe I asked, what have you done for APO lately? And, as it turns out, the answer is nothing but bitch. Oh, and Viking stuff, but that doesn't count because it's not really APO.

You may have been holding a membership card for 17 years, but you really haven't been involved with APO for all 17 years. You have a very poor understanding of today's college student, and I encourage you to spend a bit more time with a large variety of them to get a better understanding before you go spouting off.

That's hardly trying. There are always ways to get involved and ways to effect change. It's pretty clear though, that your brand of change is a huge move backwards for APO, and it's not what the students want.

And this goes back to you have a very bad understanding of what it means to be in a Fraternity. You obviously don't have the dedication it takes to be in a fraternity if you're willing to just quit because you can't get your way.

Wait, you mean to say that the group looked at itself and decided to change it's structure to better ensure our founder's vision? Scandalous, I say! How dare they move from the original structure. And may I ask, since you're so adamant about doing it the Founder's way, what was YOUR Scouting affiliation when you pledged?

Let's get a few things straight, son...
 

I skimmed over the post to address the key issues at hand. Most of your post I read as mere expression of difference of opinion or quibbling to make a point, but here's the stuff I find most relevant:

Oh really? You know, if you were a Kappa, that statement might've meant something.

I actually would, thank you very much.

Alpha Gamma Theta, 1995 (it's located at a community college, and its 15 year active history was filled with long period of semi-inactivity). This, consistent with other community colleges, was due to the very unstable student enrollment patterns at these schools. It is for this reason that I don't think APO should have chapters at 2-year schools. And from what I've been hearing, the fraternity more or less agrees.

Rho Theta, 2005: I joined them at Steak-n-Shake for a post-initiation meal. I would also visit them every year at homecoming, but over the last 2-3 years, I haven't seen APO at all, and I attend Capital's homecoming every year without fail. I think they're (informally) inactive.

Your reference to the Germans have absolutely nothing to do with APO or the discussion either. What's your point?

btw, before you attack me, know that it was a Sheriff Buford T. Justice joke. Pump your brakes....

I wasn't interested, there was nothing about it that appealed to me. 'Nuff said.

Oh, so NOW the issue of fit becomes a matter of concern. How convenient...

After all that ranting and raving, let's get something straight: I'm not having a pity party at all, I'm just explaining what happened. If Sectional Staff wasn't interested or the National Convention didn't want me to put together a workshop, fine. That's on them. But I'll be damned if I'm going to continue to chase people who aren't interested in what I have to offer. They weren't interested, so I moved on. That has nothing to do with lack of commitment or lack of dedication. It has to do with not throwing quality time and effort after wasted and cutting your losses.

BTW, who the hell are you to say that my time spent doing "Viking" stuff doesn't count? Brothers from KA, KD, Chi Nu, Chi Up, Sig Pi, and TZ could probably run circles around your chapter and a lot of other chapters in the way of service projects. Mighty self-righteous of you.

Troop 029, West Park United Methodist Church

As someone who also volunteers at the sectional, regional, and national levels I can say it took me several years to get to the levels I am at. A good deal of this was proving to the PTB that I can be an asset.

In many cases I am working with or for the same people who initially rejected my attempts at volunteering. I think most of them are now grateful for my help and that I 'stuck around' to be there now.

Being rejected when you volunteer can be frustrating. But sometimes you have to keep at it before the doors open.

I've also been to 5 conventions. At almost all of them I've done workshops, sometimes mine, sometimes APO LEADS courses, usually both. I've offered more workshops then have been accepted. that's just the way things go.

Yup, cause all male chapters are not apo right?

Now, on pledging, pledging a weak applicant is like having a weak link in the chain or like having a coward in the ranks. I'd rather have ten people that bleed their fraternity than 200 people that are only active for a semester or two.

And on being like more a traditional fraternity as opposed than being different and accepting of all? I mean, it works a whole lot better than being a huge blob of unorganized and uncommitted brothers. I'll put my money where my mouth is, I think we won more national awards than anyone in region V, and hands down we were one of the smallest chapters to.

Now when my grandfather pledged Alpha Phi Omega in 1954, they're chapter was incredibly selective. Eagle Scouts and military only, I asked him how many service projects they did and he said 'well we ran a bookstore'. I was like is that it?

It was apparently the same thing my chapter early on as well, Pi Chi from what I hear was just an extension of rotc.

Attending national stuff doesn't really even register to me anymore as part of a 'fraternity resume' that a bunch of people keep throwing around here. I attended this and this, who the hell cares.

You are oversimplifying a great deal of the Alpha Phi Omega experience.

1) Pledging a weak applicant is not at all like having a coward in the ranks. Pledging is not equal to initiating. A good pledging program will have several opportunities for reflection, self-assessment, and group assessment. Someone who is weak at the beginning has the (mandated) opportunity to prove themselves worthy by the end.

2) Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive.

3) Attendance and support of national conventions does matter -- it not only demonstrates the commitment, but suggests a knowledge of how the fraternity operates.

Nobody here was throwing around their resume -- they are demonstrating an understanding of how the fraternity runs, commitment to the fraternity over a long period of time, and showing that it doesn't matter the date on your shingle as much as the quality of what you're doing for Alpha Phi Omega right now.

As stated earlier, there are many ways to serve, especially upon graduation:

1) Advise a chapter. There are no limits on the number of advisors a chapter can have.

2) Section, Region, or National Volunteer. I have (also) done all three and they are very different at each level.

3) Annual giving -- for those who are fine putting their money where their mouth is. :)

4) Joining or starting an alumni association and keeping it going -- if you're not selected to advise a chapter and can't seem to get your foot in the door with volunteering as staff, nobody can stop you from joining or starting an alumni association if you have done it by the rules (which are pretty loose, if you ask me)

I have always taken the stance that there is no good excuse for inactivity in APO after graduation.

There's a difference between "all-male" and "viking", and you know this.

But how do you know really know they're weak? With this extension effort I'm sponsoring, I've seen several students come in that at first glance and during the first week I didn't think they would be super-strong members, but they've pleasantly surprised me by taking the ball and really going with it.

Thanks to these students being given the opportunity and time to prove themselves, the group has gone from spinning its wheels in place to just having some paperwork to finish up and they'll be a Petitioning Group with a large chunk of their chartering requirements already out of the way. Had they followed this pre-selectivity process and denied some of these students that opportunity, we'd have one less chapter on the way.

Not too bad for a group of students who for the most part have NO formal education in Alpha Phi Omega yet, but want to prove that in due time, they are deserving to be recognized as loyal and true brothers. If only pledges at all chapters were given an appropriate time of say 6 to 10 weeks in order to prove themselves instead of being bounced because of poorly formed pre-conceptions....

You are confusing open membership and accepting all comers as pledges to be the same "we take everybody into active membership", which isn't the case. Chapters who are just taking all comers are just as much in violation as those who pre-select. This isn't a binary situation, where not doing one means you're doing the other, and it is ignorant to think otherwise.

A blob of unorganized and uncommitted brothers? I guarantee Alpha Alpha can mop the floor with just about any chapter out there with their level of organization and how complex their chapter operations are. They can churn out over 6000 hours a semester of pure service with at least one project of some kind available every day of the week, multiple leadership development opportunities and fellowship activities on a weekly basis, a highly organized method of tracking all of this, long-standing traditions and history that pre-date your grandfather's birth, a standing on their campus that when people want consistent and dedicated volunteers they know to contact APO, a very strong pledge program, a set of chapter operations that is so detailed and complex that they had to write a 40+ page chapter supplement to the national pledge manual to make sure all of it gets covered, every time they are eligible for RSO of the year they win it, and a seriousness to their ceremonies that makes me proud to be an alum of theirs.

Not too bad for a chapter that welcomes all students to pledge and prove themselves worthy of our brotherhood. Their current class is somewhere around 120 pledges, which might push them up from their standing as the third largest chapter in APO.

If my choices are a small chapter who if I can't get along with some of them I might as well not be part of APO, or a large chapter where while we may not all get along, we do recognize the value of brotherhood that binds us together and set that aside when it comes time to conduct business, I'll take the big chapter every time.

Circle K with a Ritual? Please. This exclusivity mindset makes you look like a Country Club with a ritual, or Omega Theta Pi from Animal House with a service program.

And that was clearly a violation of membership policy, even then. It was made clear from the beginning that we were not to be restrictive like that.

Who cares? It shows that you have a love and understanding of Alpha Phi Omega as a whole fraternity, not just your local chapter. If you wanted to only care about a local brotherhood and not be part of a national, then why would you join APO?

Also, I think it's funny that you claim your chapter has won more national awards than anybody in Region V, but you don't care about attending national stuff?

An excellent stance. Consider it officially stolen and appropriated for my own use :)

*LOL* Hey Andrew, I guess the two of us are Doug Neidermeyer and Greg Marmalard. Let's flip a coin and determine who's who. Heads, I'm Neidermeyer and you're Marmalard, tails, vice versa.

Since we're Omega Theta Pi, let's have Arvid be Chip Diller. So whichever one of us is Neidermeyer can "put him in the cut" just like what Neidermeyer did to Chip. *LOL*

*sigh* Going all the way back to the 1930s, there were reminders in the Lightbearer/T&T from the National Officers that it was inappropriate for chapters to limit themselves to Eagle Scouts or in any way to use rank achieved during their Scouting experience as a selection criteria.

Yup. And when Bartle was elected president, he had a gathering at his ranch that summer, and this was a topic of discussion. The concension then was not to do it.