Re: Laws...
 

Thank you!
What's the basis for $10 mil. over $1mil. At what point does a monetary figure juxtapose a loss, such as a tragic death? In Canada, there's a cap of 100,000 for liability. In fact, having an insurance policy for canadian chapters does more harm than good. I have never heard of someone suing a facility or its proprietors because they broke their ankle stumbling on a few stairs. Ridiculous.

Re: Re: Laws...
 

In Canada there is national health insurance. In the USA a broken ankle or leg can cost someone a month's salary if they don't have insurance. Our medical care is very expensive even if you do have insurance. :)

That's a valid interpretation. I don't mean that ALL locals are bad or that ALL national chapters are good. However, with a national organization to answer to it should be admitted that there is at least a higher degree of accountability for chapters -- also it would stand to reason that if a chapter closes, it's much more likely to find alum support to reopen several years later if it draws from a nationwide alumni base rather than a local one.

Locals on the other hand present a much less attractive organization to sue (far less assets, probably no foundation, etc.).

So could this be a case of legal looting while the gettin's good?

James, WHAT????:confused:

Tom and Shawn are two of the most respected members of GC!

Where do you think a lot of Dues sent to The Natioanl Orgs go? Risk Management.

LXA was one of the first to profess dry houses. This does not mean that it always true as I am sure all of you are aware of in your own chapters.

At least one of the smartest things my Chapter did was to have designated drivers at the house to pick up Brothers and dates from bars or parties!

I am sure that Delta Alum along with my self and Hossier get e-m about the Greek Community. While this was brought up on another thread stating that the only thing put on it was negative, No It Is Not! Unfortunatly, the bad out weighs the good! Da, Risk Management!:(

In talking with the Ex. Sec. of LXA he made it very plain, that the Natioanls are not made of money just lie we are. He went so far as to make a commit that there may be mergers in the future among National Orgs. strictly because of the Risk Management Jonah that we carry around our necks!

Whomever made the post about SPE having money better figure out the math!

If this gets pushed through as a Law Suit, will Break them. Period.

If this happens, it is called the Domino Theory, we all fall!

The Media will be like a hounding pack of wolves calling for the heads of all Greeks!

Apologize for being so long, but this shit just pisses me off!:mad:

I just did a search on google putting sorority closed for hazing and i had numerous pages put that phase on the page. So its not just fraternities.

Wow, this is truly frightening. I just sent the article to my chapter's EC. Hopefully they will really think about it.

That's certainly true, but I think it's safe to say that a fairly substantial majority of closed chapters are fraternities.

A sorority chapter at the University of Colorado at Boulder got into hazing trouble over the past year or so.

When sororities are closed for this or that it's usually by the national not by the school because the policies of the sorority HQ's are stricter. So, yes and no.

I'm not saying it's JUST fraternities that are hazing or breaking risk management policies . . . only that it's a lot more common for fraternities to haze than sororities. I can see this reflected not only on my own campus, but in the number of cases brought up in this forum (almost none of which mention sororities). Also, when sororities do haze, it's generally less likely to involve alcohol or physical punishments, and more likely to involve emotional-type hazing, therefore less likely to end up with someone dying, and less likely to cause a lawsuit.

I'm also not trying to say that there are more fraternity hazing cases than sorority cases because guys are worse than girls, either . . . :p . I'm just saying that it happens that way because the NPC sorority rules are generally much more restrictive than NIC fraternity rules. About five years ago, Tri Delta HQ kicked out several members from my chapter and put my sorority on social probation for a semester (absolutely no social, philanthropic, or all-Greek events). The offense? Part of the new member programming involved a (completely optional, no-illegal-activities-involved) scavenger hunt, which is against our sorority's bylaws. You would never see a fraternity enacting that kind of punishment for that minor of an offense. I'm not necessarily saying I like the way that the NPC organizations run things all of the time, and there are certainly times when I think they're too strict . . . but at the same time, I think that if the NIC doesn't get strict on risk management and hazing, we will end up losing the Greek system when it comes to cases like these.

sorority support
 

As DeltaBetaBaby stated, if you remember, we did support the fraternities when we enacted alcohol free housing resolutions in our groups. While NPC could not make a policy to govern all of us, each sorority had the responsibility of choosing what level of support they provided. Those in the top tier (AZD is one I remember), they passed a policy saying that their chapters could not hold functions with fraternities that were not alcohol free. Plain and simple. Those in the second tier (most of us, including D Phi E) said you know, that's a bit harsh, but we will not hold functions in fraternity housing that include alcohol. It was a whole functions vs. facilities vs. fraternity argument. Most sororities passed something in one of these two groups. The three sororities (SK, I know for sure) chose to say, we will support those groups who choose to follow the alcohol free housing policy, but we're not going to stop having functions in fraternity housing with those who aren't a part of this policy.

Now, there was a HUGE difference amongst the sororities in how the policies they chose were passed. Many had their international/national executive councils meet and pass something. D Phi E had an alcohol free task force that was made up of students and alums and met for a weekend to make its recommendation. Sigma Kappa took the issue to their entire collegiate delegation at their Convention, and they chose their policy.

No matter how much support we provide as sororities, fraternities have to want to follow these rules, and fraternities have to be willing to cut ties with their chapters who aren't going to comply. HQs needs to be a babysitter and be well aware of what's going on in their chapters, b/c if Sigma Phi's HQs KNEW this was happening (could be found in any reports the chapter sent in, meeting minutes, etc.) then they knew and didn't do anything, and they SHOULD be liable.

OK, now I'm going...I've rambled enough :)

TexasPrincess, there are lots of ways of proving that, but the classic way would be a "smoking gun" internal memo. Let's say that in summer 2000, the regional SPE chairman for Mississippi wrote an e-mail to the nationals VP and mentioned that he enjoyed a beer with a great group of guys that year and MSU summer rush is going great. The e-mail would be produced during the discovery phase of litigation, and it proves beyond a doubt that people at nationals knew what was going on.

FYI for the non-lawyers: Mississippi has become almost a running joke among litigators because it is known for having the most plaintiff-friendly jurors in the world. If you want to slip and fall, do it in Mississippi. Juries there will hand over millions like they're passing out candy at Halloween. If this case were being litigated in New York, I'd laugh and say the corporate death penalty is just a bargaining chip that would never, ever be used. (It's designed for much worse situations, like where a company's whole board of directors agreed to start dumping cyanide into a city's water supply.) But in Mississippi? I can't laugh at that. Maybe they're actually serious.

Ivy, J.D.

Re: sorority support
 

Kappa is also one of those in the top tier. The other two groups on my campus, DG and Theta, are in the tier below that-- they may have dry functions in "wet" facilities. We may have functions with "wet" fraternities, but the functions must be dry and may not be in their facilities. I'm not sure how this decision was made-- any other Kappas want to weigh in?

Additionally, our local panhellenic had to pass a similar resolution about panhellenic mixers in fraternity facilities, and we had to go with Kappa's policy because it's the strictest.

That's one of the things that really worries me. NPR did a story on Mississippi juries a few weeks ago. Totally out of control.

IvySpice, thanks for clearing that up for me.

ktsnake, I definately agree with you on the accountability thing. 33girl also made a good point by saying that many national sororities are more likely to get closed by their nationals than by the school because of stricter rules.

Higher degree of accountability? Maybe on paper but not in reality. Just look at all the national fraternities that have chapters operating underground even though the local governing body tried to shut the chapter down. You can't have it both ways.

Ivy. Since you are a lawyer I have a Q.

If a fraternity serves a guest and the guest drives to a bar and wrecks the fraterntiy gets sued. If the guest is at a bar and the bar serves the same person and he leaves the bar and drives to a fraternity house and wrecks, the fraternity still gets sued. What is the deal? Shouldn't the bar be responsible for the person they served and the fraternity responsible for the person they served?

"Higher degree of accountability? Maybe on paper but not in reality. Just look at all the national fraternities that have chapters operating underground even though the local governing body tried to shut the chapter down. You can't have it both ways.

Max,

Can you go a little deeper into that thought?

Not necessarily disagreeing yet, but it would seem to me that an active chapter of a national fraternity would be accountable to the national, the university and itself.

An underground chapter would be accountable only to itself.

A local would be accountable to itself, and probably the university, depending on how the Greek System works at that school.

What other factors would you see? I have no experience with undergroung chapters, and all of the sorority and fraternities were nationals on our campus when I was there. Still are, I think.

edit

I think you must have been typing your question above while I was typing this. My guess is that the fraternity could be held accountable if it was a fraternity function at the bar.

By the way, it's not only GLO's who are affected by this kind of thing. The past two places I've worked have prohibited alcohol of any kind in their facilities (even for parties), and won't reimburse alcohol expenses at business lunches and dinners due to the same kind of liability issues. In fact, one of them doesn't even have alcohol at parties held off site. Same reasons.

Not an attorney here, but a strategy often employed is to throw mud at everyone in these cases and see where it sticks. The bar AND the fraternity AND the bartender and anyone else you could conceive of would probably be named in a suit.

The answer to your question is that you sue both because there is joint and several tort liability. Black's Law Dictionary defines "joint and several liability" as the liability of joint tortfeasors (i.e., liability that an individual or business either shares with other tortfeasors or bears individually without the others). When you are a plaintiff's attorney you are going after the deep pockets and you bring the action against anyone you have evidence of having liability under your theories.

If the action is for negligence then the bar or fraternity will most likely have the standard defenses of contributory negligence, assumption of risk and comparitive negligence (based on state law). How successful those defenses will be varies based on state.

Ugh. Flashback to torts. I was going to answer this one, but I played lawyer enough today on the Holly/Megan's Law thread.
GO GC lawyers and lawyers in the making!:D

I read the article and was outraged about what happened. I am little baffled over the statement that a fraternity could die because the assets of the national would be wiped out. Why go after the entire national when it was one chapter involved? I read there was a designated driver at first. Was there some reason he relinquished control to the drunk driver? Was he forced to give up the driver's seat?
Every GLO, regardless of local, regional or national affiliation, should look out for one another. I am a big believer that an once of prevention worth a pound (maybe more) of cure. I agree that the sororities should do their part to help the fraternities with their alcohol policies. Something like this should never happen again! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/sad/cry.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/nono.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmili...d/nixweiss.gif :(

The national organization has the deep pockets. If you are a PI lawyer and you have a client who is injured and has a lot of bills you go after the money. In reality, you name each of the chapter members (or the executive counsel), the chapter as an entity, maybe the HCB and the national org. A single lawsuit with a big plaintiff's verdict could wipe out most of our national organizations.

This and some other Countrys have become so SUE Happy it is moronic!

There are no deep pockets in Greek Organizations, beleive me!

Example:

I was picking my teeth and the toot pick broke and imbeded in my gum! It need extraction!

The surgey went bad!:(

I sued the tooth pick maker, store that I bought it from, the Doctor who did the work and the Hospital where I was a patience!

I did not win the suit, but, I got a settlement out of court!

This has become our leagal system today!:eek:

Wake up and figure it out soon, The Hdqs dont have a lot of money, they are just like each Chapter and ourselves as individuals! Hand to mouth so to speak! Dah!:rolleyes:

Corelate this to the Tobacco Industry, pays more in Taxes than anyothe industry, but tying to put us out of business. Thousands of people will be out of jobs and lose of taxes!

Ta Da!!!!

Tom, you explained that so beautifully! That is EXACTLY how it goes.

Small businesses are like natonals, and we ALL are extremely vulnerable to our legal system be it justified or not!

So I just did a quick scan of some cases involving hazing over the past three years (surprisingly found a couple involving orgs on my campus).

In most cases, they try to go after the national orgs under the theory of negligence. But of the 10 or so cases I scanned, none really got past the first part of the test. To prove negligence, you need to prove 5 things:
1) the person/org being sued had a duty to the person making the claim
2) that duty was breached
3) an injury occured
4) the breach was the actual cause
and 5) the breach was the proximate cause.

All the cases that I quickly skimmed held that the national org did not have a duty to the person suing. Pretty much sided with the national orgs in almost all cases, didn't see any that didn't. But I only gave a handful of cases a quick glance to see their holdings.

Given the opportunity, i'd LOVE to do more research on this and write a paper on the subject. Maybe if I ever get some free time.......

That's comforting to know. Even if the jury gives a huge initial reward I'd be VERY surprised to see that hold up on appeal.

kddani, awesome work!!! thank you to you and all the other legal GC'ers who help us understand all the legal stuff! You all rock!

The article says that the trial was expected to last the rest of the week. Does anyone know how it turned out?

Someone local or maybe a Sig Ep would have to say. It's a low-level state court, so it's not something that would be published on Lexis Nexis or Westlaw (I just double checked). It'll get dragged through appeals, regardless of which side wins. I'm not sure if a State Circuit Court Judge would have the cajones to make such a big decision and try to establish a precedent.

My bet is that they'll find that the plaintiff didn't establish that Sig Ep nationally had a duty to the victim. I'm not sure what circuits have ruled on it and what states, but i'm sure the judge will consider how other lawsuits in similar situations have turned out (in favor of the national fraternity).

That would definitely be an interesting read!

"In addition to Sigma Phi, the Mississippi Beta Sigma Phi Epsilon Alumni Association is named in the lawsuit. The lawsuit seeks the corporate death penalty, the total assets of the national fraternity."


A quick question for all you lawyers, since most, if not all the houses are own by local alumni board which inc. itself. Can the lawsuit go after the local chapter houses also? Or are they going to go after properties owned only by the national, in which case it's only the HQ in Richmond.

This is something that everyone in the greek system should take seriously. I find myself usually disagreeing with DeltAlum but on this issue we agree. The days of old will be brought to an end by the courts before it is ended internally. I fully believe at some point we will see a national fraternity or sorority bankrupted. I am not sure if most of you know how much your orgiz. are worth. I don't mean its personal worth; I mean it's cold hard cash dollar worth. Some of the largest groups (about 10 greek orgiz. total) could "live through" a $10 million dollar verdict. The rest of the groups, to which many of you belong, would cease to exist. Many of you have posted that you're national orgiz. could keep the case tied up in the courts for years or that your alums will bail you out. I would not bet on either of those being true. You may get lucky, but even if your orgiz. stays a judgment for five years, do you think your group could come up with an extra $2 million a year to pay off these costs? Almost none of your orgiz.'s could come up with the cash.

I don't like the idea but it would make a strong point to all of us, if a judgment of this type occurs. Even a "small" $5 million dollar verdict would cut to the bone. The question to me is not if it will happen, but when. I just hope to god it's not Phi Delt.

Devil's advocate.

Sig Ep is one of the largest national fraternities, ergo, one of the richest fraternities. Do you think if it was one of the smaller groups, like KDR or Phi Mu Delta, that the lawyers would have bothered to take this stance?

Why not? They have less money and legal assets to fight it out in court.

Note to UCFPhiDelt:

Delts and Phi Delts didn't get along too well when I was on campus, but I had the opportunity to hear one of your former national presidents (whatever the name of the office is called) a few years ago and was very impressed. At this point in time, your organization has taken some good and necessary steps toward it's survival. I know they haven't always been easy to swallow, but in the long run, hopefully they will work in your favor.

I was looking at it more like a mom & pop restaurant vs. McDonald's...you know the mom & pop doesn't have a lot to give you, so it's not worth exposing all YOUR flaws in court. With MickyD's, the potential payoff will be bigger, so it might be worth it for you to end up in not the best light. I say this because every single thing those 3 fellows (the two who were killed and especially the one who was driving) have ever done from birth on is going to get raked over the coals. Not fair, but true.

I understand. I think this particular lawyer would probably go for the "Corporate Death Penalty" if the young men were in a church choir.

She or he just happened to have a client in a big GLO. My guess is that the tactic would have been the same no matter which group was involved.

If it is ok for a national to hold an entire chapter responsible for the actions of one member then why can't a higher authority hold an entire national responsible for the actions of one chapter?

? for any JDs or CPAs out there.

Can the national orgs set up their assets so they are protected from potential lawsuits? ABC Fraternity Inc could set up the
ABC Education Foundation.

Examples.

1. When OJ lost his civil trial the Brown family didn't get any cash because most of OJ's assets were in his pension fund. Pension funds are protected.

2. When people declare bankruptcy their primary residence is protected. The debtor might owe 1 million but the creditor can't go after a 20 million dollar house because a primary residence is exempt.

I'm not really sure of the specifics (haven't studies this sort of thing yet).

But an organization is entirely different from an individual. A primary residence is protected b/c people need a place to live, pension funds, i'm not entirely sure as to the reasoning, but I assume it has something to do with money to live on.

Corporations are allowed much fewer rights than individuals. I would guess that pretty much anything is fair game.

As far as the primary residence...could Sig Ep sell their HQ building to their HQ exec (or someone who doesn't already own a house), and have them claim that as their "primary residence"?