I never claimed my link wasn't biased. :)

i think just about everyone is making well thought out, rational statements.. except for ZZ-kai. you just sound like a really ignorant big-headed idiot.


**edited for grammar**

Thanks for clarifying that, HoneyChile. That's kind of the point I was trying to get across, but it didn't come out right.

this sums up my feelings about the "anti-war" movement. Directly from the mouth (or pen) of someone who protested Vietnam.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=1249

Kitso
KS 361

My Two Cents
 

I so happened to be flipping through the television channels this evening and came across a foreign (FRENCH) news program. They showed images of their reporters entering into hospitals where the wounded, the victims of THIS WAR, were located. It brought me to tears because NO ONE deserves to be invaded the way that we are invading IRAQ. There seems to have been no thought for the innocent lives that are there. My heart goes out to those who had to flee their homes because of we, AMERICANS, and our government officials, have chosen to do. But even in a time like this it is even more pressing to pray, pray, pray. It is more pressing to seek God's face and that his will and way be done. Being that we are AT war, it is my prayer that it will END quickly!

Stay on your soap-box. It's a breath of fresh air.

There have been several comments made here which deserve mention.

First of all, that respect is due the OFFICE of the President. That's absolutely true. That's a lot different than respecting it's occupant.

Second, peace demonstrations may not stop a war, but they certainly help. Or do you think that the VC and NVA really had the power to defeat the American Military had it been given the political backing, and lack of political interference, it needed for victory?

Third, whether they turn out to be "lies" or not, there have been a lot of unsubstantiated claims used to justify the war. The stuff would never stand up in court. I choose not to characterize them as lies because I don't know, but I keep saying I'd sure like to see more convincing evidence.

Fourth, I'm not sixty-five just yet, but it's really strong comments and attitudes like that which really make me sit up and take notice and consider the real depth of any argument. Whether you really want to consider it or not, at least some amount of wisdom comes with age and experience. Discount that now if you want, but revisit it in twenty or thirty years.

Fifth, I probably wouldn't have used the "lies" word -- but I definitely wouldn't have called someone "ignorant" for stating an opinion.

Sixth, the only people who scare me with their posts are the ones who are ABSOLUTELY sure that their point of view is correct. It seldom works that way. I can't think of very many times when any decision I made was absolutely, 100% correct. Fortunately, they've been more right than wrong generally.

Finally, I've said this before, but believe it bears repeating. "America, Love It or Leave It," flies in the face of everything upon which this country was founded. I suspect that if anything will tear at the fabric of our democracy in the long run, it will be that kind of attitude -- not protestors for or against a war.

By the way, nobody seems to mention the pro-war demonstrators. They're out there, too, you know -- just not in as large a number.

Edited to add: The comments on the Canadian Defense Forces are, in my mind, truly out of line. Canada has been our participating ally in nearly every war in which we've been involved. In this particular case, they stand with the vast majority of the world.

Because it's so much easier to put people in little boxes than to actually listen what they have to say.

(Of course, the same could be said of some of my fellow anti-war protestors as well. )

And for that woman who said it 'hurt like hell' to see people protesting against the war when her husband was risking his life -- I think it would hurt even worse if he came home in a casket. THAT is why I'm protesting this war.

I repeat...

Because it's so much easier to put people into little boxes than to actually listen to what they have to say.

I can say that this definitely applies to a lot of Canadians as well. Remember that whole "American bastards" controversy?

This thread has become incredibly harsh and insulting which I think is unnecessary. Calling someone a liar or ignorant is only meant to insult. It's a way to shut down a dialogue between people of differing opinions. Each person's feelings, ideas, and beliefs are important, and we all can learn something. I thought that was the point of this message board and this thread to share ideas. I learned along time ago that although I might believe passionately in something, I have to respect the right of people to believe something different, something that might even contradict my beliefs. You can debate an issue without the insults and without dismissing someone.


I do respect the right to protest, but I don't think that the protests are constructive. I think that that there is a more productive way to use time and energy. Perhaps a better use of energy is to make care packages and write letters to the troops, or volunteer to help out a family with someone stationed in Iraq. They definitely need all the support and help that they can get at this very difficult time.

Re: Anti-War Protesters....
 

Here here! Cheers to the GREATEST country in the world. A country where we have the freedom to protest, though I think it's ridiculous.

"Support our troops or shut up." One of the signs I saw pro-American troops holding up. I can't say that I disagree, though a bit "rude" I guess.

You don't have a military because America is your neighbor. It's America's job to protect everyone in this world, and in the end some will eventually turn their backs on the U.S. and we'll keep protecting them. Why? Because everyone needs America whether they like to admit it or not. Is that an ignorant statement? Perhaps, but it does have a point to it.

The reason why Canada sticks out is because they are an enigma. Formerly a British Colony, you'd think they'd side with us and England. But apparently the French in them takes priority. The other 197+ countries don't support us for reasons beyond Canada's excuses. Countries in the middle east risk retaliation, attacks of terrorism from it's citizens, or other factors play a role in their decision. For example, the EU has threatened countries seeking membership that they will lose that chance if they support the war. Canada, on the other hand, doesn't have any of these worries or concerns.

Piss people off? Any country that gets involved in foreign policy is going to have people happy and pissed off. Canada invented peace? Yea, prove that one buddy. And just how exactly is my opinion ignorant, all I said was that Canada has no interest either way in this war so they should just mind their own peace-making business, how is that being ignorant?

My little statement was a joke, but I understand why you take it personally since you live there. But just as a test, for now on I'm calling Canadian Bacon - Freedom Bacon :D

Interesting comment, I didn't know that 13 year olds could join GLO's.

I didn't waste 45 minutes reading all the posts since I left because the discussion seems to have gotten a bit out of hand (which is fine I guess), however, I stick by my comments: if you don't like it, do something about it. Move to Iraq, be quiet OR speak up, run for office, vote, study politics....whatever, but do something about it. Sitting in circles with pipes on your arms, singing "coom-by-ah" will get you nowhere. Shutting down Michigan Ave and the Golden Gate bridge accomplish nothing. I laughed my ass off when that delivery guy came up to the yarned off intersection and said "Move your ass or I am going to drive right over you, I have a job to do".

If its not abortion, its war, if its not war, its red meat, if its not red meat, its vegetables, if its not vegetables, its the Administration, if its not the Administration its something else, blah blah blah blah blah. Build model airplanes or something. Get a hobby.

PS, AlphaGam1019, nice quotes, thats good stuff.

"Excuse me, can you blow me where the pampers is?"
"Excuse me, can you SHOW me where the CAMPUS is?"

We're not going to protest

Anyone else love PCU?

PPS, I am Pro- American

I am not saying Canada invented peace I am saying we invented Peacekeeping. Look it up, the Prime Minister of Canada (Lester B. Pearson) won the Nobel Peace Prize for it! As for the connection between Canada and the US and England, We are a sovereign country, we are a member of NATO and we accept our role as that. No other member of NATO has joined the coalition, what makes you think we will? Because in 1867 we were British? Fuck that! You never said Canada should mind its own business, what I believe you said is that you "owned us". And I resent that more than any statement you could ever make. I am not a citizen of North America, sorry, I have my own views, and believe it or not my own constitution. I am a Canadian. Imagine if I said we owned the USA, there would be more flames towards me then there would be intelligent posts.

We have a military, like I said we have participated in every peacekeeping mission that has ever existed. In fact we were liberation France 2 years before America ever got involved. We fought in Kosovo, and we still have men on the ground in Afghanistan. WE ARE FIGHTING YOUR WAR!

By the way I am a British citizen, my cousin is a Royal Marine, so I am not entirely isolated, and I do care and pray for those who are over there. But I do not support their action.

It's all about timing. Protest the war in public BEFORE the war. After that, protest it with writing letters to those in charge. If the French people were protesting their leader's decision NOW, then we would know they don't agree--remember that THEY are not at war yet. We Americans are a family. Families can disagree, but you shouldn't air your dirty laundry to others.

By protesting after the fact, yes, people are sending a message to the rest of the world. You are also sending a message to our troops. Why play these mind games with the very people these protests are supposed to be supporting? Help them to see that what they are doing matters. The soldiers want this war to end a whole lot quicker than any of us.

As for the wife of the soldier who said that those comments hurt, granted, if her husband does come home in a body bag, that would hurt, too. How much easier it would be to deal with when she could know her husband was appreciated instead of resented by his country.

I just want to reinforce once again that showing opposition to the war is not synonomous with resenting solidiers. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You know what? Read DeltAlum's post because he put it far more eloquently than I did.

Sucks that you say IGNORANT simply because you don't agree.

ZZ-kai-, whether or not you wanted to "waste time" reading the other posts on the thread, I think KappaTarzan about summed it up.

Sistermadly ^5, you got it about right.

WAR IS WAR! No matter what you call it, a peace keeping mission or what ever!

People get killed and are DEAD! These are the men and women of the Armed Forces of the US and the other coellaction members!

Are we there because of the oil, maybe.

Are we there because of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Are we there because this is one sadistic SOB.

I agree, you all have the right to voice your oppinion but where else would you be able to live and have the rights you do in America? Have any of you been to other countrys other than yours! Well, I have and I was thrilled when I got back on Home Soil.

I have not seen a total count of dead members of the Armed forces from all countrys but I know that there will be loved ones who are now alone and not have their Loved ones come home alive!

I did not want the conflict, but it is here, live with it.

Canadians or more laid back than many on this post, and while I will kid them, I and many members of Greek Orgs have Brohters/Sisters in the Country to the North, they are part of a bigger picture, just as we are!

Fine, if Canada's role is that of a peacekeeping nation, then they have even less of a reason to be commenting on the war, in my opinion. Obviously then they had no intention of ever being involved in the conflict so that they could show up and be the peacekeepers later. If that's the case, then why do they make these statements? I dunno, maybe it's a publicity stunt.

I wouldn't say Canada is fighting our war if you're going to claim this peacekeeping role to your country, but I do know soldiers from Canada were killed in their missions, including Afghanistan, but the war over there is has ended so there is nothing left to fight.

My little statements about Canada started as a sarcastic joke, but maybe we do own Canada :p What if there is a problem in the future and Canada needed America's help? Does the US have the right to go on TV saying, we won't defend Canada because we don't feel like it. It'll never happen, Americans will always be there for you, and that's the ignorant part of this situation that you just can't accept.

I have no quarrels or feelings about Canadians or citizens of the country, just your government officials. It's makes no sense for Canada to speak out in opposition against the US, especially when it's their interests as well we are protecting.

http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/war.../wp2-r4-f1.JPG

AMEN!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but, let's face it, we're at war and it's not stopping anytime soon. It isn't helping anyone when people go out in masses and protest. In fact, people are getting injured, trampled, thrown in jail... This isn't helping our country.

http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/navigator/usa.gif

Support Our Troops

Our troops are legos? :eek:

Crap, which channel am I watching then....

And people are being blown to smithereens by their fellow troops. Tell me, how is this helping our country?

War is not a pleasant experience. Although tragic, it's not even close to the first type of incedent like that. In fact during Vietnam "fragging" officers (tossing grenades into their tents) was a common practice. Hopefully this is a single isolated incedent.

No one said that the war would be without loss of human life or without error. Hopefully in the long run the cost of action is less than the cost of no action.

I think that's a pretty good calculation.

Again, more genius comments.

As for me not "wasting time", it was almost 2:00 am, and I wasn't going to read through 2 more pages of postings (browse, I did). Some of us, unlike others, have lives outside of GC. I don't forsee myself celebrating my 9,000,000th posting.


I am Pro- American

Hmm...
 

Rumsfeld has said that Iraq has NOT, as of yet, fired ANY scud missiles.

Lives that include being on GC at 2 am? Hmm...

Also, CONGRATS (as I guess that is what you were going for? I dunno).

Hey 9th grader, its called working the last of my 65th hour this week and checking my e-mail before going to bed.

It is funny to me to see reactions of people when someone actually grows some balls and tells it how it is. It pisses some of you off, and I kinda like that. We need that every now and then.

I am Pro- American

Hey, we still have troops in Afghanistan as well. If your country has troops there too, you are also FIGHTING YOUR WAR! If it was OUR WAR, you'd have NO TROOPS there.

As for the liberation of France two years before America was involved.....I applaud that, I really do. But without the help of the U.S. in that engagement, I don't think France would have been liberated....take that as you will....but think about it...deeply...

We sent our troops back into Afghanistan to help free up some American troops to go into Iraq...

I also have British citizenship, and like 85% of Brits and half of the British Parliament I don't supprt this war, so I guess I'm just going along with both my countries.

Canada was never against a war - all we wanted was UN approval and George W. knew that - hence why we are not involved in this war.

Canadians are simply practicing what has been inbedded in our Constitution and in hearts ... the POGG clause - PEACE, ORDER AND GOOD GOVERNEMENT.

Thanks for the explanation. :) I wish that the USA had waited for UN approval also as we had a dozen years ago. I think that the USA takes on the role of the world's police too frequently which is the job of the UN.

I too would have liked UN approval, but France took care of that one. Considering the UN never acted on Iraq during the last 12 years of violations, I don't see a credible purpose for the UN Security Council. Humanitarian Aid and a global forum, the U.N. has proven itself. The UN is ineffective in this area, that's why the U.S. has to do the job for them.

VirtuousErudite, actions speak louder than words.

PM Mama00, great analogy in your second paragraph!

You do have a point that the situation in Iraq is not a great one for some (a lot? how many hate the government and how many like it, I don't know) of the people, however:

The US's role is not akin to that of social services. It is not our job to keep all the other countries in the world under control.

Furthermore, there are a huge amount of Iraqis who are dependent on the government for food and water, among other things. One article I read said that 50 percent of Iraqis depend on the government for food supplies just so that they eat enough to stay alive. Assuming that is true, if we cut off their food supplies (as is the plan), that means that if the war goes on long enough, as much as 50 percent of the Iraqi population could starve to death. Many of them may not have clean water to drink either. Now probably (hopefully!) the war will not continue on that long, but even if it doesn't -- the US does not have concrete plans as to what they're doing with the Iraqis after we get rid of Saddam. They don't have concrete plans on what to do with the refugees (and there will be a massive number of refugees).

So using your analogy, that would be much like having one set of parents abusing the child, the neighbors coming along and tossing the child out onto the street where he has to fend for himself. A different situation, but not necessarily a better one.

The analogies used here make things altogether too simple. This is not a simple situation. That's why a simple answer can't possibly be the best one.

It definitely would have been nice to have the full support of the UN, but that just wasn't going to happen. We gave Hussein 12 years to disarm. Why did France and whomever else think that 30 more days would make a difference?

There are so many thoughts in my head, I don't know where to start....but I do know some have been stated by others, so I will not repeat much.

Although I'm anti-war, I do agree that that the anti-war protests should cool down a bit out of respect for your president and your compatriots who are over there fighting. that is COOL DOWN...not stop.

I cannot judge whether this war is necessary or not...ppl talk of liberation, etc....but you cannot judge a culture that you don't really know and especially not by your own country's standards. (There are so many contradicting reports who knows how bad or not bad it is over there?)

now the Canada thing :p You know what...you guys are stronger and more powerful and richer too i think. That's why i don't like you(sometimes) because we are overly influenced by you. You could invade and takeover Canada if you wanted, but you don't want to - which is good. Just because we are friends doesn't mean we always have to agree - contrary to popular belief, Canadians and Americans are not the same. We have our own values, beliefs and morals. And you know what? we can make some of our decisions by ourselves. I could go on and on on this subject, but I won't. I just want to let you know that there are other ppl and countries out there, and that we all don't have to agree with the US all the time.

I just want to let you know that you shouldn't talk to all 'Americans" as they are one person. Not all Americans feel that the whole world should agree with our government or make decisions based on the decisions of our government. I agree that we don't have to agree, and on many things our countries don't. That is what makes our countries different. If we always agreed, what the hell would be the point of U.S./Canada, you know?

The point is that a lot of Americans do not agree with the recent decisions of our president or our government. I would be one of those people. You can see this by all the recent protests in our country. But what is done is already done. The powers that be have made the decision to go to war and send our men and women into battle. I will never turn my back on the troops, never.

But the rest of the world acts as if what the U.S. is doing is so horrid and wrong or unjust. But Saddam hasn't been horrid, cruel, unjust to many people in his own country? The Iraq debate has been ignored for far too long and I feel for many of the people in that country. Hopefully the U.S. will have a chance to liberate the country from the Hussein regime.

I know that...replace all "you" with "your gov't" :p (you was easier to type)

many ppl feel the same towards the US, as the US feel towards Iraq. Well ok, not exactly, but I mean some ppl feel the US is as great a threat as Iraq is to their lives/country - not talking about what is/isn't happening in Iraq. I do not think the US is as horrid as Iraq, but like I posted above, who am i to judge?

Many people around the world feel that the U.S. has grown too strong. Maybe that one day the U.S. will say screw it and start invading other countries for the hell of it. I seriously doubt that would happen but I could see how some might feel that way. But at the same time, they don't stop to look at the billions of dollars the U.S. gov't dishes out each year to many countries around the world for aid and other related expenses.

I say the U.S. should just stop policing the world, just stick to our country and let everyone else fend for themselves. I wonder how long it would be before someone would intervene and ask the United States for assistance. I bet it wouldn't be long. Why? Because many people feel that the U.S. is the only country capable of giving the assistance that many countries need or desire. And IMO, just being an American and all, we have been pretty generous....
(
edited to add) generous to the point where sometimes I feel our country gives aid to other countries prior to improving conditions in our own counrty. (Better education, finding our unemployed jobs, aiding our homeless, cleaning up our cities, etc.)


Our gov't and country may not be perfect, not by any means. But in recent events, everything good that our country has done has been overshadowed....

Well, it did happen, but fortunately I don't think it could be considered a common practice.