Re: With Respect, Madmax
 

No no no no no. Don't even go there. Closed/struggling chapters are not due to the collegiates alone. Sometimes the "help" that is offered is not conducive to that campus....sometimes the alums are non-involved or hostile...sometimes the school puts ridiculous rules in place. I have to agree with madmax, you sound like you just got back from a convention where they told you every single thing the national does is wonderful and if you can't take it and run with it, well, you're just a futzed-up loser and it's your problem. I am glad you have had a good experience, but don't turn that around and harsh on your own brothers.

Re: With Respect, Madmax
 

In all fairness, what are these offers of help that are provided?

-Rudey

Ok, why would a Greek System's numbers go down if Nationals expand there aggresively.

Oh, and if it is true that expansion would do that, then maybe that's why the Greek System here is down. In the early 90s when there were only maybe 2 cultural GLOS, each fraternity had 100 guys. NOw that there are like 12 cultural GLOs, the biggest house has 80, and the smallest 25.

Not trying to disrespect, just saying maybe that's why.

DeltaStan is correct. A system can get to watered down and most of teh organizations lose.

a A lot depends on the area of the country and the climate of the partcular school.

Sometimes it seems that the NPC group take it to an extreme compared to NIC.

I know at my school when we started, there was a small national trying to come on campus at the same time. The College decided that only one would be allowed. Thank God, we were the one who won.

At this point in time, there are many Internationals trying to expand to help build membership to get an infuse of cash

I know that 3 of the agressive Fraternitys are:

1. Looking in recolonizing defunct chapters

2. Looking to expand where the climate is right.

I know LXA is doing this with a plan of so many a year so that each new chapter will get the proper attention.

Also SPE has been agressive for a number of years. TKE is doing the same way that LXA is. Especially reopening closed chapters.

While the Greek community is or has been in the thros of decline, I feel that many are trying to turn the corner and make a concereted effort to expand.

Here is hoping that it will have!

It is good to have Greek members like madmax and Firehouse working in the Greek world.

OK, 33girl, Rudey, DeltaSigStan...
 

Here are answers to the questions you pose.
Rudey: "What help?" I'd say help from any legitimate rush expert, or fraternity expert, usually from the national office (provided they know what they're doing). Also, experienced alumni. Look, it's not brain surgery but helpful advice comes from experience. In fact, this is such a great board, I'm sure there are many people here who would be glad to offer valuable advice in specific cases.
33 girl: You make very good points, and I agree with you. It's not always the fault of the collegians. I have not had the experience of hostile alumni that you mentoined, but I can imagine that it exists. You are also right about restrictive rules and hurtful regulations. But please believe me, I am not a cheerleader for national. This is an arena - rush especially - where I know what I'm talking about. You make an excellent point that I'd like to underscore: every situation is different, and what works on one campus might not work on another.
DeltaSigStan: You mentioned that your campus had two "cultural" GLOs with 100 each, and now there are 12 with membership ranging from 80 down to 25. If the average is - what? - around fifty now, then it sounds like you went from 200 members in a two-fraternity system to 600 members in a system of 12. Pretty good growth. I'll admit that I don't have any experience with "cultural" GLOs - all my experience has been with IFC type fraternities - but I'm sure the "cultural" groups are after the same things the rest of us what as well. The rapid expansion and popularity of "cultural" GLOs tells me that our overall product is very sought after by men and women from a very wide range of backgrounds. This is GREAT news for the Greek system.

No, I forgot to mention. The Two Cultural GLos at the time had maybe 15-30 members. The IFC and PHC houses had the 100-200 houses.

Now the IFC houses have 25-80, the sororities have 75-100 besides one house, and the cultural greeks have maybe 15-30.

Still Sounds Like There's More People
 

than before. In any case, there's no reason why any particular group can't pledge as many as they want. Often, it's just a matter of lack of vision or ambition. If your top competitor has only 80, then you may quit at 80 too, unless there is a leader in your chapter with the drive and ambition to create a fraternity that will dominate. If one chapter steps forward and becomes a substantially stronger fraternity than the others, then the others will rise to that standard just to compete.
Let's pretend that there are ten fraternities with 500 total members, on a campus with 10,000 strudents. OK, lets eliminate 6,000 of those students who are women. Take away the 500 Greek men and that leaves a total of 3,500 men on campus. Let's eliminate 2,000 of them for no particular reason; maybe we don't like them, they don't like us, they're seniors, they're not 'fraternity types'. That leaves 1,500 men to be divided among 10 fraternities, which already average 50 men each. That's an average of 150 rushees EXCLUSIVELY for each individual fraternity!!!
If I want to create a great chapter, I can make a living off those numbers.

It's already been well documented within the University and the leaders of the greek community that numbers are down.

Talking with the other greeks, there are a few general theories SDSU greeks have:

1)The thing with the cultural GLOs.

2)Most of the parties are open, no lists, no greeks only, no special invites. This has caused a lot of randoms to think "why should I go through all the trouble of pledging a fraternity when I can party there any time and not have to join." Sure one can say "well who would want those people anyway?", but that is a substantial amount of people.

3) Apathy. SDSU has gotten really apathetic the last decade, and the University hasn't done much to change it. They want to get out of this "party school" reputation and be more academic. Well, there are many "party schools" that have excellent academic programs. There's really no reason to have to eliminate one for the other, when it's been shown that the two can work together at a school.

The biggest issues lately within the powers that be on campus are mascots, renaming landmarks on campus, and raising fees for things that will not help us or show any impact for us current students.

I think the overall attitude on campus has changed and the greek community has suffered.

Sorry to preach, but those are some reasons I've heard greeks say.

FIPG
 

You are thinking of FIPG, Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group, which has members from both PHC and the NIC.

Firehouse and Madmax - it's now five years later, let's hear your thoughts.

You had some intelligent insights, the playing field has changed in 5 years, any different ideas?

I'm pretty sure we have stayed independent. Well at least I can't remember my pledge manual mentioning anything about our membership in either group.

It is going to be interesting to see if other NIC members leave as well. Maybe this move will serve as a "wake-up call" and some changes will be made by the NIC.

Kappa Sigma has thrived since withdrawing from the NIC.

From the KS website:
"The Kappa Sigma Fraternity has officially set a new record for total men pledged in a single semester with the pledging of 4248 men in the Fall of 2007, marking the largest pledge class in the Fraternity’s history and the fifth-consecutive Fall semester where Kappa Sigma has broken its own record for men pledged."

Here's a link to the whole article:Kappa Sigma Sets New Recruitment Record!

Current FLA members are Delta Kappa Epsilon, Kappa Sigma (founding member), Phi Sigma Kappa (founding member), Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Sigma Lambda Beta, and Sigma Pi. All but Kappa Sigma are also members of the NIC. According to some web searches, there are three other (NIC?) members that are also FLA members. However, I have only seen the previous mentioned six fraternities listed as members of the FLA.

Phi Delta Theta never joined the FLA and has remained "independent" since their withdrawal from the NIC. However, as an international fraternity, they (and Kappa Sigma) are treated the same within the campus IFC (NIC) structure. So on a campus level, it seems like there has been little to no impact. As such, both fraternities continue to do quite well.

Since Kappa Sigma's, Phi Delta Theta's and Phi Sigma Kappa's withdrawal in 2002, Phi Sigma Kappa has rejoined the NIC. At that time (2006), Alpha Phi Alpha, Beta Chi Theta and Sigma Phi Delta also joined the NIC increasing the total of the NIC to 68 fraternities.

And for what it is worth, various fraternities have withdrawn from and rejoined later the NIC over the years. Frankly, I would not be surprised if either Kappa Sigma and/or Phi Delta Theta did not rejoin the NIC at some point.

i've done some research and am still confused, so i apologize if this question could be answered elsewhere, but what is the difference between the IFC and the NIC? are they the same group? is one part of the other? or are they two seperate groups not associated with each other? can a fraternity be a member of both? thanks in advance :)

Phi Delt and Kappa Sigma
 

"Firehouse and Madmax - it's now five years later, let's hear your thoughts.
You had some intelligent insights, the playing field has changed in 5 years, any different ideas?"
"Phi Delt and Kappa Sig seem to be doing very well several years after leaving the NIC."

Thank you for the kind words. Doesn't seem like five years (!) has passed...

First, yes, both Phi Delt and Kappa Sigma are propsering after their decision to leave the NIC. Phi Delt jumped early on the 'no-alcohol-in-the-house' initiative and no one else followed (maybe Sigma Nu). I get the feeling that Phi Delt undergrads feel themselves at a disadvantage because of it, but if it hasn't helped them it doesn't appear to have hurt them either. Phi Delt has a string of strong chapters at major schools.
Kappa Sigma is a little different. They are a fine, strong fraternity but they have launched in a new direction, one pioneered by TKE and Sig Ep: very rapid and prolific expansion. Kappa Sigma has around thirty colonies at any time. They are creating new chapters as fast as they can. Thier new marketing strategy is to lay claim to being the nation's largest fraternity. This number is not achieved by enlarging existing chapters; the numbers come from all those new chapters. Sig Ep has claimed to be the "largest fraternity in America", basing that claim on their sheer number of undergraduates at any one time. They experienced rapid expansion, and it is my understanding that they award what you an I would consider initiated status almost immediately after a man is pledged. It's more complicated than that but it gives them the opportunity to dramatically increase the number of "initiated" undergraduates. Now, Kappa Sigma has overtaken that #1 standing.

As far as as the National Intefraternity Conference, I think the same issues are still in play. It costs a lot of money to be a member, and their programs appear to me to duplicate what our own nationals already do for the undergraduates. I would like to see an association dedicated to opposing draconian, arbitrary regulations and bullying by administrators. Back in the day, no one got actually kicked off campus unless they did something really horrendous. Today, it seems that any violation brings the death penalty, without regard to the financial impact or effect on alumni. Another thing the NIC should do it lobby IFCs to permit the immediate reinstatement of suspended fraternities as soon as they've served their time. At my school (FSU) SAE got kicked off for five years in 2001. They have applied to IFC twice for reinstatement and been voted down both times. Finally SAE said the hell with it and established a colony anyway.
One of the problems with NIC - so I'm told - is that their staff and volunteers are of the same mindset and outlook and general profile as the typical "greek life professional." They see the world through the same eyes, and that view is markedly different from the views held by staff and officers of most major national fraternities.

Could you please share your sources? I'm unable to duplicate your findings. Thanks in advance.

Phi Sigma Kappa also withdrew from the NIC and helped form the FLA. We rejoined the NIC a couple years ago. I was at the annual congressional luncheon in 2006 and spoke to a some of our national "guests" (since they weren't really delegates anymore) and they noted that the NIC was lobbying for tax breaks in Greek Housing and that it was probably worth rejoining. One year later and Phi Sigma Kappa formed its very new "Properties" arm.

I was an undergraduate during our hiatus and we also had Kappa Sigma on campus. The whole thing had almost no perceivable impact on our two chapters except when a vote for expansion came up in the IFC. Normally chapters are obligated to say "yes" unless there's substantial reason not to and the pressure for that comes from the NIC. We felt no such pressure.

"Could you please share your sources? I'm unable to duplicate your findings. Thanks in advance."

Sure. I am very familiar with the history of Kappa Sigma' journey through the 20th Century. I've read Wilson Heller's old newsletters and I've studied his national ranking surveys. I've read the Caduceus from time to time. Heller was a fan of Kappa Sig and when they took a downturn in the 1970s he correctly predicted that they'd right the ship, due to excellent history and new leadership.
Before I wrote my response about Phi Delt and Kappa Sigma I simply Googled Kappa Sigma, went to their national website and counted the colonies. I knew they were in a huge period of expansion, and now I see on the national website that they're laying claim to be the nation's largest fraternity, a title often touted by Sig Ep and for the same reason: they choose to count the current number of undergraduates.
Here is an excerpt from a news release on the national website: "The Fraternity posted over a three percent increase from the Fall of 2006 and established fifteen new colonies, tying an expansion record set in the Fall of 2005 when Kappa Sigma also established fifteen colonies. Kappa Sigma has averaged eleven colonies per semester over the past four years, and expects to establish over twenty new colonies next spring."

You can be "the largest fraternity in the nation" because you have the most chapters (TKE), or because you have the most alumni (SAE?), or because you have the largest average chapter size (Pike) or simply because you're Sigma Chi (I'm being sarcastic but you have to tip your hat to Sigma Chi).
Please don't take offense; none is intended. What Kappa Sigma is doing isn't a bad thing; it simply is what it is. Regardless of how they choose to go about it, Kappa Sigma is not going to be hurt by being aggressive. Sig Ep and TKE made pretty good livings off of it.
Other, old line fraternities like Beta and Phi Delt and Fiji chose to be extremely selective in their expansions, but it has not hurt them because they focus all their resources on only a few at a time.
Kappa Sigma is doing well. Be proud.

As an aspiring Greek Life professional (years from now, after I've made millions of dollars playing the ponies), I'd like to know what that outlook is. Perhaps because it is 2AM, I couldn't figure exactly what you were going for there.

I think what Firehouse is trying to say nicely is that they are way too politically correct and more concerned about playing nicey nice with the school administrations, rather than supporting the Greek system.

There's a difference between being impartial from fraternity to fraternity (i.e. applying the same rush rules to everyone) and laying down (i.e. supporting the school when they kick groups off for really bogus reasons).

But I can't see you doing that dude. :)

I think that something is being mishandled here. Kappa Sigma has not claimed to biggest fraternity. All Kappa Sigma has claimed is being the most preferred. Meaning it pledges more people than any other.

http://www.kappasigma.org/php-bin/ne...hp?id=165&ref=

Look, Kappa Sigmas can say whatever they want. It's a fine fraternity. I just thought it was interesting that they've hit on exactly the same promotion that Sig Ep discovered: claim to be the largest fraternity based on having the largest number of undergraduates nationally at the moment. This as opposed to being the largest fratrenity because they have the most chapters, or the most alumni, or the largest average chapter size. Sig Ep expanded very rapidly - nothing wrong with that - and because they initiate their "pledges" almost immediately they find themselves with an unusually large number of undergrads.
Kappa Sigma is in a state of extreme expansion right now. Nothing wrong with that, but the "large size" claim [or, "most popular based on size" claim whichever you prefer] comes from suddenly having established all these colonies, and not from a corresponding increase in average chapter strength (size).

We all sell what we have to sell. I'm a Pike, but I admire the sucessful fraternities, like Kappa Sigma. However, I also appreciate the quality of a Beta Theta Pi or Phi Delt or Fiji or Delta Tau Delta. Those four in particular will never claim to rank among the largest nationals because of their very conservative and selective expansion policies. But I can tell you that in tems of quality, they are four of the top national fraternities and have been for a very long time.

This may be a bit of a thread hijack, but one thing, as a member of Kappa Sigma, I wonder how long this expansion is going to continue. I personally don't have any worries that we aren't getting quality guys because I have seen three colonies initiated recently and they were all quality guys. And also I have seen what it takes for a colony to gain their charter, and it is not for the weak of heart. And you are correct, we have to sell what we've got.

NIC is the North-American Interfraternity Conference, to which (inter)national organizations belong. IFC is a campus Interfraternity Council (which may go by a different name), to which chapters belong. It is possible for a fraternity chapter to be a member of a campus IFC even if its national organization doesn't belong to the NIC. It is also, I suppose, possible for a chapter of an NIC fraternity not to belong to a campus IFC -- if, say, the chapter is not recognized by the school.

Correct, we are a member of our university's IFC. It is an integral part of our success on our campus as well as many others.

thank you for your explanation. it clears up exactly what i was confused about.

I think making moves like this will make us all better off.

So explain to me how this affects you, personally?