I remember asking my father once what something about his organization (Sigma Phi Epsilon) stood for, and he wouldn't tell me because of the oath he took. At the time I was a pledge and didn't understand the loyalty. However, even with me (his daughter) my father wouldn't tell me a thing. I can see why, now having been an initiated member of my own organization.

I don't know that my mother would tell me a lot about her organization because she probably doesn't remember much. She was only a part of it for a year or so (cuz then she got married and had me).

On a different note, the one thing us Greeks can do against these sites that defame our organizations is sue for slander. If the way the person reveals the information is slanderous it could be used against them in the court of law. I know all about this. Although the internet and website material is very touchy, it could still be found libel!
So there IS hope. It just may take some time. Remember, information can be shared (there is no doubt about that). But the way a person goes about sharing that information and the accusations they make can be considered libel (especially if it's being used to harm the reputation of one's organization).

yes, but you took an oath to both, if you can not be trusted to follow your oath to the GLO by keeping it's secrets hidden except to members then how can you be trusted in your other oaths, such as marriage vows? If I get married would I tell my wife any secrets of my fraternity? Most definately not. If she gets angry at me for it so be it, I believe as I have stated before in this post. Would I use the same tact and wording as Tom? Probably not, but that doesn't mean I don't believe as strongly about my fraternity as he does of his.

Excellent analogy Aurora. My boyfriend is a former military man and there are some things regarding his service that I just don't ask about.

BTW, I used to live just outside Anchorage when my dad worked up in Prudhoe Bay. :) I miss having a white Christmas. Winter in Arkansas just doesn't compare to Alaska!!!

In the Eleusian Mysteries the punishment for revealing the "lesser secerts", the working ritual, symbols, etc, was death. The "greater mysteries" were the pricipals and feeling of that you were doing good and on the right path of course can't be revealed because they are inefible. I've never heard of any Theta Chi revealing our secrets. Hopefully it won't ever happen.

I totally agree precious

My understanding is that truth is an absolute defense to both slander and libel. If the defendant showed that the statements were either true or substantially true, she'd win as a matter of law. ("Substantially true" means that the less-than-perfectly-true statements were no more defamatory to the organization than the truth would have been. In other words, if the "gist" or "sting" of the allegedly defamatory statement produces the same effect in the mind of the recipient as the precise truth would have produced, then the statement is "substantially true.")

So a site with genuine secrets is not defamatory. A site with false secrets would be defamatory only if it damaged the reputation of the organization in the minds of reasonable people. Unless the site claims you beat and starve the pledges, it's unlikely to meet the standard.

In any such case, btw, the defendant would almost certainly be able to subpoena GLO records if they constituted the best evidence of the truthfulness or falsity of the statements. If there's a ritual book, the judge and opposing party will see it.

As for intrafamily secret-sharing...when I was touring my father's alma mater, he told me a number of things about his fraternity initiation that made an impression on him. He wanted me to understand his experiences and who he was at that time. His fraternity (Phi Sigma Delta) no longer exists, having merged into ZBT, but I'm sure he would have told me these things even if that weren't true. Also, when I had an awful fight with other members during a secret proceeding when I was an undergrad, I cried on the phone to my mom and told her everything. She helped me through it, and I'm glad I went to her.

Ultimately, it's a personal decision whether your bond with your spouse or child outweighs your vow to the fraternity. As for me, nothing and nobody -- not even the law -- comes ahead of my family.

This is a very interesting related topic, though...I'd love to see another thread devoted to it.

Ivy

My family comes before anything else in my life, but I still fully intend to honor the obligations which I voluntarily took upon myself on the morning I was initiated. Family and GLO are not mutually exclusive.

Short of someone holding a gun to your wife's head and demanding your ritual secrets, I see no reason the two oaths should ever conflict.

So why is this being argued here as some kind of choice? Is your GLO vow now subject to some constantly fluctuating "oath priority list"? If the answer to that question is "yes" then sorry to say, but you aren't worthy of your organization OR your spouse.

As each oath is subsequently taken, it is your responsiblity to evaluate whether the current oath conflicts with any previous ones. If it does, you should not take the current one. If it doesn't conflict and you do take the oath, you honor it without caveat. That's called honor.

wptw

Well, they would conflict (for me) if my hypothetical spouse, who was otherwise wonderful and reasonable and fantastic, just had a real bug about my refusal to tell him this, to the point where it was getting in the way of the relationship.

We all have our pet peeves and things that really bother us...and if this was just driving my husband crazy, I'd tell him. I wouldn't be married to anybody who would publish the info on a web page, but I might well be married to somebody who unreasonably obsessed about something. It's certainly not something I would end, or even destabilize, a marriage over.

For me it's not as simple as, "I gave my word; I keep my word." When I make an ethical choice, I weigh the pros and cons. If I am sworn to secrecy by a friend who then tells me she's going to shoot the president, for example, I'm going to break my promise and tell the police, because he'll be hurt a lot more if I don't tell than she will be hurt if I do. I don't think that would make me an untrustworthy friend. This, on a smaller scale, is the same thing...I would break my word, even if it hurt someone, in order to prevent a greater hurt.

But as I say, it is a personal choice and I respect everyone's personal moral calculation about it.

Ivy

Lucky for me, husband is a man who realizes the significance on an oath and therefore would not pressure me to break it. And if he were in a GLO, I would respect his oath as well. :)

Well, I can say I have not shared any secrets with my husband. He once asked (half-kidding) "So, what goes on at these meetings, anyway?" so I told him (fully kidding) that we circle the fat, have lingerie pillow fights, then go out in the woods and drink goat's blood...

OK, well let's just amend our rituals to add:

"...unless someone I love really has a bug up his ass about it, in which case kindly disregard the previous three paragraphs. So help me god."

If a woman that I’m considering marrying has a bug up her ass because I am choosing to honor a previous obligation which in no way conflicts with her life or our relationship, then that would weigh heavily on my decision whether to marry her. It’s a big red flag that maybe she’s not as wonderful reasonable fantastic as she might seem.

Plus… your wonderful reasonable fantastic hypthetical spouse after 10 years of marriage may find a wonderful reasonable fantastic hypothetical mistress, then hire a wonderful reasonable fantastic hypothetical divorce attorney. Do you think the things that were told in confidence during the marriage will now stay that way? Aren't you glad you broke your sacred oath and obligation for that wonderful guy who cheated on you and then revealed your ritual? Think this example is far-fetched?

Once you start down the road of qualifying and ranking your vows, putting one in front of another, you’re lost. People come in and out of our lives. The one thing that remains is the man or the woman in the mirror. And if you can’t honor a solemn obligation that you took in good faith, then you are not worthy of identifying yourself with all the other people who wear your letters and ARE keeping their word to protect the sanctity of those letters.

wptw

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedRoseSAI


Well, I can say I have not shared any secrets with my husband. He once asked (half-kidding) "So, what goes on at these meetings, anyway?" so I told him (fully kidding) that we circle the fat, have lingerie pillow fights, then go out in the woods and drink goat's blood... [/QUOTE
You told him the truth!??!!!

That took nerve.

Just kidding.

yeah...
 

I think almost every organization "threatens" it's new members with "death" or "Disgrace" or whatever in the ritual.I mean that would only make sense to make people take oaths "Until death do we part" basically.But seriously, I would not actually expect to kill, bury alive,burn alive, or anything like that to any of my sisters should they blab. I mean, I really hope no one does blab our ritual, it would tick me off, but it would not ruin my life. I do have other things to worry about.

As for the whole spouse thing. I recently overheard my b-friend bragging about me to one of his frat bros that I was so cool b/c I've never tried to get secrets out of him or ask him a bunch of questions. And I thought-that was a nice compliment-but GAWD-I could soooo care less about his fraternity stuff. I mean, please.Now my best friend-she's a little loose lip Lucy. But I don't really think she's evil or anything. She just doesn't take it as seriously. It's more like a college thing-not a life long thing to her. Whatever.

Now the Eulessian (Spell?) Mysteries-pretty interesting reading.

As far as our stuff goes-like Tom said, it's mostly oral so there's not much to read.If I see a book going on ebay or something I just let it go.......

damn well put wptw!

Honestly, if telling him was the biggest sacrifice I ever made for my husband, it's no wonder the hypothetical marriage ended.

I would be a lot more upset that I had sacrificed years of my life to this man, and that I had brought children into the world who loved and needed him, that I had foregone the opportunity to find love elsewhere, than that I had told him that the acorn represents the potential growth of the new member, or whatever the secret was. That's nothing compared to the other intimacies spouses share.

I guess I also shouldn't tell my husband my sexual fantasies; after all, if he left me, I might find that information on the internet, along with descriptions of what I look like naked. That's not far-fetched, either. But I don't plan to make choices in my marriage based on which choice would turn out better if we got divorced. Might as well not get married at all.

If you're basing your argument on the fragility of marriage, then do you see a difference with telling a parent or child? I have trusted my life to my mother countless times, long before I ever heard of GLOs. If I can't trust her with the secrets I had to reveal to get help from her when I needed it...well, let's just say I'm not at all ashamed or sorry that I did that.

I repeat, I'm not attacking anyone else's choice; I'm just defending the idea that under some circumstances, the question presents an ethical dilemma without one right answer. Your conscience has to tell you which path is correct. As far as I can tell, you are arguing that there is always one right answer here, because once you make a promise, you keep it until death, no matter what. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Ivy

I think once one makes a promise, one ought to keep it until death. I would never claim that I am so perfect as to always manage to do that myself, of course. But I believe oaths and promises are very, very important. If I knew one of my sisters had revealed our ritual to anyone, and I do mean anyone except someone with a gun to her head, I would want her membership revoked.

If my hypothetical husband can't take one oath I made seriously, I wouldn't trust him to keep oaths himself - such as faithfulness, for example. That's not the sort of husband I want.

Edited to add: There may be times in one's life where one decides to violate a vow. If you promise not to tell your best friend has anorexia ... if you go to initiation and find out part of ritual is killing a puppy... In these cases, breaking an oath is done for moral reasons, not for convenience in explaining why you're upset or to pacify a whiny husband. But there are still consequences; your best friend is upset you betrayed her, or your sorority kicks you out. If you're going to back down on your word, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences, even if they're as mild as people saying you're wrong on a chat board!

Fragility of marriage is one possible pitfall, but it's not the basis for my argument.

The basis of my argument is very simple:
A promise is a promise is a promise.

If you felt joining a GLO and taking that oath of obligation would conflict with your exisiting relationship with your mother, then it was wrong of you to take the oath. If you are unprepared to honor an obligation then don't take it, ESPECIALLY if it's an obligation that requires you to get down on your knees and raise your hand to god in front of your sisters or brothers. If you still feel comfortable wiggling out of that promise, then fine. But don't punish the other hundreds of thousands of people in your group who ARE going to take it to their graves.

And by the way, I can't conceive of a scenario where I would have to tell my mother secret ritual information in order to get help from her.

Someone else summed it up pretty well: "I guess some people just don't take this stuff as seriously as others". Yeah, I guess that's right. And we wonder why our secrets are out there!

wptw

Edited to add that Fuzzie's distinction between violating a vow "for convenience" as opposed to "for moral reasons" is an excellent point that seems particularly relevant here.

You honestly think that no Theta Chi EVER has revieled ANYTHING??? With 150,000 initiates, I'm sure at least one, which is less than 0.000007% person has let something slip, accidently or on purpose.

I think in many situations the husband/wife would not take their curiousity to the extreme. Obviously there will be a level of curiousity, but I have faith that it would not consume my future husband's life. To a certain extent, we all have curiousity about other's "secrets", such is the fascination with gossip columns, exposes, etc. I think a non-GLO husband or wife is probably just wondering if anything really scandalous happened ... like dead puppies, goat blood, etc. and just want reassurance that it didn't. The truth would be probably be less than thrilling for them. I think a simple answer like explaining that the ritual is inspiring and emotional and holds a sacred place in your heart would suffice.

Then again, I may be wrong ...

In all things, I try to be a realist. As such, I realize that over the last 100+ years, there must be someone who has spilled their guts about ASA's secrets. It shouldn't happen, but I'm sure it does. I love ASA, and I would never betray it's secrets, however, I don't think I'd be particularly inclined to bludgeon someone who did. I would just have a better understanding of their moral fiber, and keep that in mind whenever dealing with them. And if my husband ever did ask about our secrets, I'd just tell him that whatever he can imagine they are, is probably more interesting and enticing than the truth would be. I wouldn't divorce him for being nosy. Everyone is nosy to a certain extent.

OUR SECRETS ARE OUR SECRETS! EACH AND EVERYONES!

While there may be similarities, they each have meanings that we hold dear!

What I said in an earlier post was very true and am damn proud of that fact!

If each and everyone of you is not True to One Thing, How true can you be to anyother things??

Let Your truths be self evident and beleiving!

Does that sound somewhat familiar?

Go ahead, give your secrets away, just what the hell will you give away next!?

I am true to my Fraternity and My Own Brothers!

What else can I say? :confused:

Okay, really guys... this has been discussed so much! Will it ever die?! :)

Anyway... No, rituals are not in the LOC, it is an urban legend!

And, on the contrary to what many say, quite often I have found that some of those GLO secrets that leak out are true... Many times I think members say they aren't true so that people won't believe them... It's sad they get out, but I guess sh*t happens, huh? When tens/hundreds of thousands of people know a secret, someone's bound to blab eventually.

Anyway, I like to think it's not the secrets that are important, it's the values. And if you live them... that's all that matters.

So what you say is true does that make it any better?:confused:

Is telling your Ritual Secrets making you any bigger?

I am sure that You are Right about some telling their secrets, but that does not make it right to me as a member of a Greek Organization! Does it You!?

Maybe we of the older generations feel stronger about what we did than you as a newer generation feel for the same thing!

Actually in the strictest sense... you probably won't get kicked out of your org for slipping on the values that it proposes are important. You *WILL* if they catch you revealing ritual secrets.

Same here. My father was in the army back in the '60s. He was an enlisted soldier working in a communications branch. Basically, he says he worked in coding/decoding. I know he's done other stuff, but he can't tell me. Because he needed Top Secret clearance, the Army sent out agents to his hometown to interview his neighbors, friends, and family. I presume they did that to ask about his interests, personality, beliefs etc. He did get top secret clearance and he had to make some sort of declaration of loyalty. It bothered my aunt to no end that he wouldn't tell her. "But I'm your sister!" she'd protest. All he can tell me was that he was stationed in Arizona. He's not in the army anymore, and he has never been notifed if his work has been made declassified. As is such, he won't tell. To this day, I can ask him "Hey, what was it you said were doing out in Arizona?" He'll just smile and say "I can't tell you that." :)

It's all a matter of respect and understanding. One of the things my boyfriend likes about me most is that he can trust me. As someone else pointed out, it's the same sense of committment to a GLO that also works in the favor of a spouse or partner.

.....Kelly :)

Some may wonder about scandalous goings-on, but there may be another reason.

Most everyone is familiar with religious rituals, which are based on the explicit directives and/or examples of a "higher power" of some sort. GLO rituals, on the other hand, originated in the minds of people (the GLO's founders). Many of these founders were inspired by their religious beliefs, but GLO rituals are secular.

So, part of the allure may be wanting to know what kind of ritual the human mind could make and the human heart could long for... something that is so profound, so moving, and instills such dedication, that the initiated are forever changed. Some uninitiated may wonder, "What actions and words are so timeless and profound that they can preserve the beliefs and legacy of the founders, while being able to reaffirm the dedication of members and welcome others in the sisterhood/brotherhood... all at the same time? What could spring from the mind of a person and yet be so powerful?"

UofIL AXO is correct. The text of a GLO's ritual is just one aspect - albeit a greatly important one - of the membership process. The leap of faith that initiates take is also of utmost importance. You do it alongside fellow initiates whom you have bonded with, guided by members whom you have grown to trust. Taking that leap of faith is part of the experience... and is only the beginning of what is, hopefully, a lifetime of dedication.

Do people place Top Secret security clearance in the same category as GLO secrets?

The very worst-case GLO breach scenario -- web page with millions of hits, cover of TIME magazine -- would, at worst, cause distress, outrage, and sadness, and necessitate the rewriting of ritual that is deeply sentimental and inspiring to many people.

The worst-case Top Secret Security breach scenario -- information finding its way to Saddam Hussein or al-Qaeda -- would, at worst, cause the violent death of millions of innocent people, the overthrow of nations, and possibly global nuclear war.

I just don't put running the first risk (however small) in the same category as running the second risk (however small). Saying "both are bad and unacceptable" doesn't express the very different degrees of badness I see here. The first breacher possibly deserves to be kicked out of the GLO and sued for damages. The second breacher possibly deserves to be shot by a firing squad. Someone with Top Secret clearance is wrong to tell the secrets even if captured and tortured. But if Nazis captured me and held me over a vat of melted lead, I'd tell them all about what I did in college with a clear conscience.

Maybe this is my lawyer training, but when I look at bad acts, I see the million shades of gray that the law asks about. Even in the case of murder, the law asks, did you intend to cause the harm you did? Would a reasonable person in your position have felt physically threatened? Were you abused as a child? Did you kill the guy when you were extremely upset and not thinking clearly? Are you genuinely sorry for what you did and can you be trusted to never do it again? Every type of sentence, from the death penalty to total exoneration and every level in between, can follow the same act, depending on the answers to all those and other questions.

If I'm alone in my various opinions, that's cool (it certainly wouldn't be the first time! Just ask anyone who was in my Federal Jurisdiction class :)). I'm just curious about where other people stand. Is revealing GLO secrets so evil that it deserves to be compared to revealing military secrets? Would you support the criminalization of sharing GLO secrets, as a state would be free to do?

Ivy

To IVY ( LAST POSTER ) and all fo the above posters!

NO it is not of National Security to divulge your Secrets!

But, my question to each and everyone of you, Have You given up your secrets?

Are you the one letting down your Brohters/Sisters>

I have over a 1/4 Million Brothers that I cannot not and will not do that to, would you!

If the vows you took are not meaningful, then why be a member!

Turn in your Badge and Certificate. Be someone who has not friends to go back to see at your Founders Day or Homecoming!

If I show that I feel Strong about this , you are damn right!

I have My Brothers, not only from my Chapter but the other over 200+ that I can lean on in need! Will You?

That is what it means!

I have disdain for those that do and would turn my back on them!

i think some people ask because they have this idea that initiation = hazing. when people talk about gang initiation, it is usually a series of crimes that a person has to committ in order to be a part of the gang. with some cults, initiation involves drinking blood of animals, etc. unfortunately, this is all the general public sees as initiation. in the world of glos (and i am making a general statement that i hope covers all of us), initiation is very different. it is more akin to a wedding ceremony with the symbols and meanings of the particular glo. if someone walks up to me and says, "i am going to be initiated into xyz sorority," i don't say, "oh no, what are they going to make you do?" instead, i say, "wow, that is great. you are going to have a wonderful experience." i don't need to know the specifics of that glos ritual to know that that person is going to have an amazing experience. i know this because that is what happened to me. for people who have never been in a glo, there only experience with "initiation" has probably been in a much different sense.

on a side note, my best friend asked me about ritual. not because he was trying to be nosy about what we did, but because he wanted to know why what happens in that few hour period makes you not want to tell. lol, he is a philosopher and he was trying to understand what made it so important to people. honestly, i couldn't come up with something. no one held a gun to my head and said, if you ever tell, you will be killed. honestly, i don't know why i don't want to tell, i just don't. the conversation ended with me saying, you should have joined a fraternity and then you would know, too!

I don't think anyone should be compelled to with-hold secrets from their spouce/parent/child they do not feel have to be with-held, nor should anyone have to swear to die for ritual secrets. We have an honour and a privilage to be in our fraternities and sororities. Each of us must make our own decisions on how to deal with the knowledge given to us.

The issue is that ritual secrets are considered sacred, and how we approach the sacred differs from culture to culture. Some people feel that the sanctity of the sacred can never be breached--as in, divorse before I give up ritual information. Some people feel that there are times when it is necessary--my mother trusts me, and I need her now, so I can trust her. Some people really don't care--I want to write a website about our rituals so that everyone can see how lame all of this is. The degrees vary. But there is still an approach to the issue that is of one coming to the sacred and mysterious on one's own terms and making a decision.

For example, I suffer from a chronic and eventually terminal illness. I've told my parents what various objects from my sorority mean to me personally, not in the context of ritual, and how they must be dealt with were anything to happen to me. My sense of appropriate action with my objects of secrecy is more important than the absolute secrecy on the issue. I cannot bear the thought of my mother misunderstanding some of my SAI things and giving them away, especially things that must be burried with a sister or returned to nationals. This is a matter of trust, and of consience. I've discussed it with my President and VP of Rit, and we've come to the conclusion that this is appropriate, and so I feel that while I am in a sense violating some of our secrets, it is out of a legitimate need to prevent further violations after my death.

Just my $2.50. Take it for what it's worth.

~Emma

so i just got a harassing email from the mother of the chi omega woman...

what a bunch of b.s.

sure, fraternities and sororities are bad when they haze, but most of us are not condoning that and realize that hazing is not the foundation of our glo's. the chapters that haze and do other bad things should be dealt with in accordance to the law and by our national orgs.

some people are just f*****g retarded.

Swede, if I were you, I'd save that email. Psycho B doesn't know when enough is enough!

Re: Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

I agree with you MysticCat...People who reveal the secrets of their sorority or fraternity obviously do not honor those secrets. i know I would never reveal any secrets of our sorority to the public especially not on the internet for such wide viewing possiblity. I can not believe there are some people who would do this, but I guess there are people who do not obey the oaths they take which concerns me greatly.

Hate to break it to you, but I know at least 1 Theta Chi who has revealed your secrets. One of my sisters was dating a Theta Chi and he told her some stuff, although I don't know exactly how much.


Along the lines of pinkyphimu's post, my mom was scared for me when I first joined because she really thought that it was akin to joining a cult, and asked me what happened at initiation. I told her that it was a ceremony similar to a wedding, and that satisfied her. No other non-affiliated person has ever asked me what happens at initiation.

Pinkyphimu, I would tell your best friend that I love my sisters. This is why I will not reveal to anyone that which we hold sacred between us.

While the words mean so much to me, the words themselves are nothing without the emotion to back them up. Similarly, the secrecy of the ritual and of fraternity business is a symbol of fidelity between members. By divulging ritual, a sister is breaking the bond of trust. I could never again tell her anything of great import.

Well you know when you get upset at your brother/sisters this is a great blackmail topic!

What a lovely analogy! I'll have to remember it!


Amen to that!

We have some really smart cookies here at GreekChat!! :)

honeychile

If my husband had the nerve to ask about Pi Phi secrets (he didn't even know that GLOs had any until we were married), I'd make up a few realistic-sounding ones. Why would your spouse want to know your ritual and worse yet, threaten trouble if you didn't spill it? I think it would be symptomatic of other problems.

Yo - thats some cool stuff. I will be repeating it to our NM at initiation in a few weeks.

I was thinking the same thing. If it becomes a major trust issue where your spouse feels like you're keeping secrets from him/her, I would just make stuff up. How would they know? But then I guess that means you're lying to your spouse. Some people may have an even bigger problem with that.

My honey is a supportive non-Greek. He's jokingly asked my sorority's secrets but never expects to get an answer. He's not really interested in that aspect of SLU. I don't know how I'd feel if he insisted on knowing or felt I was keeping secrets from him if I refused to tell him. One thing I do know, I'd never spill the beans. I think it says so much about a person's character when they live up to the oath they've taken. How can anyone be mad about that?