I would say that there has to be a line or two drawn, because i consider what my frat does as Pledging not hazing, but im sure there are people out there who would call it that. At the very most it could be called Constructive Hazing, but that is the key word, CONSTRUCTIVE, having a point to everything and never going out of your way to do stupid things to them ie punching trees or running in to walls, etc. Our squires (pledges) might get a little yelling here or there, or miss alot of sleep but its good for them because unless they are broken down how can they be rebuilt back up. As for frats/sorors, that say they dont haze i call shananigans, because if you show me any pledging program i could find something that can be misconstrued as hazing in one way or another. We are currently in the process of pledging in some new guys and thier captian has been a very good friend of all of us for 3 years but hasnt been able to pledge till now for various academic/social probation issues, he came into it thinking the first night was going to be a cake walke, well we fixed that and broke him the first night and even though hes getting it bad from actives and alums he's still going forward and when its all said and done he will be thankfull for all of it and im sure he will make a great Knight. But as long as hes a squire his pledgings going to be long, hard, meaningfull, and constructive.

not hazed, no way !
 

I was not hazed, not even close.

The whole idea of "earning your letters" or "proving your worthy of belonging" is completely backwards !!! NMs are the lifeblood of the chapter and the GLO. The chapter should feel that THEY have to prove that THEY are worthy of joining !!! They need to show that they are worth spending time and $$$$$ on. They need to show what a worthwhile organization it is.

I guarantee that hazing does not FIT into any GLO's "purpose", "mission" or whatever phrase is used to describe the formal document listing the guiding principles or reason for existing.

Re: not hazed, no way !
 

you're kidding right? so how does that make you any different from a club? you're basically giving letters away.

I am gonna say no, our chapter nor does our beta chapter haze. we may have different requirements to our new member program than the next group, but the new member process is supposed to be one of the most memorable and fun experience of the Chi Delta career.

I was talking to one of my friends from a differnt house and he told me he found out this fact somewhere, but im not taking a stance on this. He heard that chapters who haze have a lower dropout rate than chapters who dont. I know that fraternites have a much lower dropout rate than sororities , is this because fraternities are much more likely to haze than sororities, or the way fraternities haze is differnt from sororities.

Well, for listening to you for one! Get over yourself...

Wow.

I think all James was looking for was positive ideas for chapters that do haze, on how to replace those hazing activities. Not a bad thought, in that the best way to get rid of hazing would be to substitute positive activities for the negative ones.

If you're being sarcastic, then that's fine...but I don't think James was being out of line with his question.

I wasn't being saracastic. I think that if I was a guy going through recruitment, after reading the other posts he placed in this thread, that I would NEVER pledge at his fraternity. I don't agree with his theories on hazing and never will for that matter.

Thats y u joined a sorority not a fraternity. Hazing if done properly is a useful molding tool. Im not talking about physically beating a pledge or something, but stuff that has meaning behind it.

the Eta Nu chapter of ADPi is proud to be haze free! :D

Actually, I went to a school with fraternities AND sororities that hazed, the sororities often times worse than the fraternities. It didn't build brother/sisterhood or unity. It made their new member classes wonder why the hell someone would treat them like crap for 8 weeks and then want to be their best friend. It created chapters of cliques by new member classes. And I don't want someone to have to mold me. As our recruitment theme of the last semester was: "The best way to find out who you are is to get to the place where you don't have to be anything else"

We'll never agree, so let's agree to disagree :)

Here's my theory on hazing. Of course, I can only speak for my chapter.

When we invite you to be a Tri Delta, we not only expect you to be a good sister, but a good person. That's what our sorority was founded to do: "THE PURPOSE OF DELTA DELTA DELTA shall be to establish a perpetual bond of friendship among its members, to develop a stronger and more womanly character, to broaden the moral and intellectual life, and to assist its members in every possible way . . .and to encourage them to assume, with integrity and devotion to moral and democratic principles, the highest responsibilities of college women. ." If you need to treat new members like isht to prove that you're superior to them, you're not being a good person. You're going against the ideals that the group was founded to promote.

Also, we need to be able to trust that our new members will conduct themselves with dignity so that they will represent the sorority well at all times. If you have so little self-esteem that you will allow yourself to be treated like isht just to gain entrance to an "elite" group, how do we know that you won't exhibit the same lack of self-respect later and reflect negatively on Tri Deltas as a whole?

You can form "a perpetual bond of friendship" with or without being hazed, but you cannot "develop a stronger and more womanly character" or have "integrity and devotion to moral principles" if you do haze. It's true that I might have a stronger bond with my pledge sisters if I was hazed. But would I respect my older sisters for doing the hazing, Tri Delta as an organization for allowing them to do it, or myself for putting up with it? No. And would my sorority be missing out on some great women because they didn't want to be hazed? Yes. To me, those are the more important things.

That's why the Mu chapter of Delta Delta Delta does not haze.

I am apart of a sorority and have been for the past two years. I was just wondering if making the new members repeat the creed of the sorority word-for-word in order to be initiated be considered hazing?

scpiano: I don't think it is because it is a valid part of the history. If a person is joining a group, they should know by heart the principles it was founded on.

I believe hazing has been defined a few times before, but generally, it involves harassment, humiliating/perilous tasks & practical jokes.

Do you consider reciting your creed to be harassment? Is it humiliating? I wouldn't think so, since everyone-not just pledges-is required to do it, and typically the ideals you are reciting in your creed shouldn't give rise to ridicule or humiliation. On the other hand, if you are required to recite it with a mouth full of marbles, I personally would consider that hazing. I guess if you are a highly sensitive/shy individual who doesn't like to speak in front of people, it could be humiliating, but I bet this would be tested with an objective standard--would a reasonable person think reciting a creed would be humiliation? I think not...but others may beg to differ.

If you have a concern, it would be best to contact your sorority's headquarters, or a national officer. I know that there have been many discussions in our KD yahoogroup about what is and isn't hazing, and we have usually gone to either a N.O. or HQ for an "official" word.

I really doubt that by itself would constitute hazing, many national sororities give new member exams (KD included). Like dzandiloo said, if you make them do it with a mouthful of marbles or scream at them or say it while holding a lit match, yes that would be hazing.

It's all about context sometimes.

Hazing is a good way to weed out good members. Am I less of a member because I have self-dignity and respect? Am I less of a member because the moment I would have been asked to do something humiliating I would have left?

Some alumni actually experienced many of the things that would be defined as hazing in 2003. Does that mean they don't have dignity and self-respect? I don't think so. I have mentioned a friend who got up and left another NPC sorority that she was pledging when they hazed her. I think that she would have been a good sister. The pledges who stayed and experienced hazing also became good sisters. Some hazing was nonsense, some was a pain in the neck, and some was downright dangerous. I am not defending hazing by any means. I agree with shadokat's previous posts on the subject in this thread. I just disagree with describing people who have been hazed as lacking self-respect and dignity.

Well that girl showed no loyalty to her pledge class when she abandoned them. If that girl abandoned her pledge class when times were tough, whos to say she wont abandon her sorority.

To me, the above statement reminds me too much of the DZO train of thought (at least the one that MTV portrayed)... that the girls have to "prove themselves" to the sisters so they can see what kind of sisters they will be.

It's just a bunch of crap really.



I don't see this as having "no loyalty" to the pledge class because she didn't want to be hazed. Her dropping just means she didn't want to be hazed, maybe even not want to be associated with a group that hazes. How does that make her showing "no loyalty to the pledge class"? I don't see how this [not wanting to be hazed and dropping] shows that if she was a sister she would leave the chapter when "times were tough"?

That makes no sense to me at all.

When "times get tough" for a fraternity or sorority chapter, usually that means they are having internal problems, maybe poor leadership, hard time recruiting more people, low chapter morale, etc. Not wanting to be hazed DOES NOT show how a person would react to real incidents when "times get tough".

I was never hazed, but you can bet I am going to be there when my chapter needs help the most, even after I graduate... and I'm pretty sure other people would feel the same.

If this girl didn't want to be hazed and left, it doesn't prove what kind of sister she would have been if she stuck it out.

It wasn't an issue of loyalty. It was the first Saturday after bids and induction. She had only been pledging for a few days. The sisters and pledges barely knew each others names. She decided that if this is how pledging began, it could only get worse from there. She was right. I don't want to go into specific details about what exactly happened, but it was hazing by every definition. She was surprised that she was the only one who left.

Times were tough because the sorority sisters decided to haze, not because of external facts such as financial problems or illness.

Ditto to what texas*princess wrote. :)

I'm not talking the little crap like no more "scavenger hunts" and events along those lines. Hazing means that you are uncomfortable, endangered or feel demeaned by a situation. If your friend left because she felt that way, good for her. If the other pledges didn't feel that way, good for them. If they did feel that way and didn't speak up, that's their fault.

I never understood how you can haze (Brow Beat ) people into submission to come to love their Pledge Class, the Active Chapter or, The Greek Org. that they thought that they wanted to be a member of!

Damn, I wish I had joined a Greek Org. where I could get my ass beat with a board, have sh*t poured on me, made to do things that I might injure myself, and drink till I was comotose!

That is the way to build Brother/Sisterhood!:cool: :rolleyes:

PsiU, when, may I ask, did you go through your new member program? In case you hadn't noticed, the calendar reads 2003 anymore, and while ideas like these may have worked in the 70s, now, they just aren't going to hold much credibility.

Fall 2000 and I believe hazing does work, and im not talking about beating people with paddles or putting themselves into situations where they can die or be seriously injured. Pledges (yes my school still uses term pledges, pledge term , and rush), should have to earn the right to wear those letter and be called brothers. If it takes yelling then so be it. When a person accepts their bid and becomes a member thats just dumb, might as well join a co-op. My friend was part of a house that did that and also didnt haze, at the end of the semister after they lost half their pledge class , they asked to be hazed so that being in a house would mean something to them. Another thing the 3 top houses are also the 3 hardest hazing ones on campus and last time i checked it wasnt the 70's so somethings got to be working.
Also alumni come back and we tell each other stories and not alot has changed, and yes my chapter was considered old back in the 70's, before when hazing was "mainstream" in the greek system.

PsiU, my point, and others here I'm sure will agree, is that hazing may work for you at your chapter, for whatever reason, but there are MANY successful chapters just like yours that don't haze, and it is entirely possible to have a positive experience and still show dedication to your organization in many ways.

One other questions...if you have to yell at your new members to get them to do the activities required, why would you want them there?

You yell at them if they dont know something or do something wrong, like y dont you know this or is this not important to you something to that effect. The chapters that i know dont haze all have serious internal problems, while the chapters that do haze have a stronger brotherhood, i guess its differnt at you campus but whatever u have ur opinion and i have mine and we are not going to change each others.

Like Cream said, that's great what works for your chapter, but I wouldn't exactly call your theory a scientific discovery.

You say the chapters you have seen that don't haze have internal problems and you have a stronger brotherhood. Could it be something else that causes a stronger brotherhood for you? Or maybe something else that causes their internal problems? Maybe they have severe personality differences and just don't get along...or something else.. unless of course if they just walked up to you and said "We don't haze that's why we have internal problems." Something else you could take into consideration is the number of other chapters you've seen, and the number of chapters that are actually out there that you haven't. How would you really know "hazing works" if you haven't checked out every other chapter out there?

I know this sounds crazy and overly statistical, but I don't think you can say that every chapter that doesn't haze has poor brotherhood and/or problem. In reality, I don't think any GLO has "perfect harmony"... whether it be sororities, fraternities, or even professional GLO's. Everyone has some kind of issue whether it be small or large, and I don't think it's possible to attibute problems to the differences in whether or not they haze.

there are no absolutes and i didnt say that every chapter that doesnt haze has problems just the ones i know and thats only like 3 of them, also the really succeful chapters i know of haze, it doesnt mean that all good chapters haze, but the way people make hazing out to be on this thread and in general its like ur commiting the ultimate sin and ur chapter should be closed down or something like that.

Hazing IS the ultimate sin in greek life.

GC has taught a lot of us here the bigger world of greek life. We have an overwhelming amount of information given to us on this site by our peers.

In the greek world, hazing IS pretty much the ultimate sin. It's something that's given us all a bad rap, regardless of whether or not we or our individuals chapters haze or hazed. It's a stereotype that we have to fight everyday as Greeks.

If a chapter is hazing, they SHOULD be shut down. Or at the very least the offending individuals should be resigned and the chapter put on probation.

Please forgive me for not knowing more about you, but judging from your screenname i'm guessing that you're not a member of a national fraternity? You likely don't have any rules or guidelines to follow like NPC sororities, NIC fraternities, etc. Those rules we're created just for kicks. There are also state and local laws regarding hazing, and i'm betting your school has some regulations as well.

The thing about hazing, too, is that you can't just say, oh, we're going to just limit it to yelling at them, etc. If you allow anything at all, there's always going to be someone pushing for more, and it escalates further and further.

Actually, kddani, Psi Upsilon is a national fraternity. But I agree with everything else you said. :)

We, as Greeks, need to start being responsible. And when we haze, we are putting our members at risk for injury and putting our HQ (and sometimes individual members too) at risk for a lawsuit. Psi U has less than 30 active chapters -- that means not a lot of money is coming in, and if there isn't a lot of money, one lawsuit could easily wipe out the entire organization. Even if you're not "hurting" your pledges, an overly rigorous pledge program causes grades to go down, involvement outside of the fraternity to suffer, and friendships outside of the fraternity to suffer. Those are all missed chances to capitalize on showing people what the Greek system is really supposed to be about. Brotherhood and sisterhood are important, but not at the expense of everything else.

My bad! Didn't realize that.

I wonder what Psi Upsilon nationals would have to say about this then?

I was at work earlier, and really wasn't able to do proper research.
However, I did find Psi U's policy on hazing. The pretty standard policy:

Hazing
No chapter, colony, student or alumnus shall conduct nor condone hazing activities. Hazing activities are defined as:

"Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual, or policy, or the regulations and policies of the educational institution or applicable state law."

Ultimate sin? I wouldn't go quite that far, but I would tell you that let Psi Upsilon get sued by a brother and his parents and a university and you may no longer have a fraternity. Ultimate demise seems more fitting. Your chapter should be closed down, not only because of hazing, but because of the liability you incur for the entire fraternity by hazing.

No one can MAKE something mean something to you. Something has meaning because YOU believe it to have meaning. Somebody could attempt to haze me into believing that the Lord's Prayer (sorry if the analogy offends!) should mean something but it won't truly hold meaning unless I want it to.

If a brother's parents were to actually sue for hazing it would be on the chapter not nationals. Also if a chapter were to be lost it really wouldnt cause the whole fraternity to be done with or even that much harm, there is actually talk of closing a number of chapters (does not have to due with hazing just interfraternal politics). If you think hazing is the worse thing to close a chapter for, then u need to wake up and stop being so niave. As for what nationals would think of the chapters that haze, ill tell u what they say, its wrong and all that stuff you all spout off about. Do nationals know what chapters haze? im not going to answer that. As for the whole house meaning something to them, i wasnt the one who said it, my friend said it to me so im just going off of what he said. Anyways this is like trying to reason with a vegan about why people eat meat so im done talking about this. If ur chapter hazes good luck (just dont do anything stupid like anything to do with any type of feces) and if ur chapter doesnt haze good luck to you as well.

I not good at spelling so sorry about that.

Actually, if you'll browse through the Risk Management forum a little, you'll see that there are plenty of cases where a chapter got in trouble for hazing, and the national organization was sued. In fact, in some cases, when somebody brought up a lawsuit against a fraternity, they sued the individuals involved, the chapter AND the national fraternity. The national HQ is usually the one to get sued, though, because they have far more money than the individual chapters and the people want as much money out of it as they can get. As for the closing of chapters causing national bankruptcy -- it's not simply the closing of the chapter that will do it, it's the lawsuit. According to those who have seen the financial standings of fraternities, it would only take one big succcessful lawsuit against even the biggest fraternities (Sig Ep, Sigma Chi, etc.) to bankrupt them. Most fraternities don't have that much money. One of the smaller groups wouldn't even need a big lawsuit, just a medium size one. When you haze, you're putting your fraternity in danger of being closed down. It's that simple.

It seems to me like SuperSister hit on something, too. You can't be sure how hazing (even the "innocent" kind) is going to affect people. Sure, there are going to be those who thrive with hazing. There are going to be people who would have made great brothers or sisters who leave because they don't want to put up with the hazing. There are going to be those who rebel against it. It seems like this spring's season of "Sorority Life" and "Fraternity Life" would be enough to show you that people react to hazing in different ways, that hazing doesn't always cement pledge classes the way it's supposed to. The people who say that they WANT to be hazed because it builds unity and trust are pretty uncreative, because there are plenty of ways to build unity and trust without hazing, and there are plenty of people for whom hazing would have the exact opposite effect. The only meaning it has is what you put into it.

Hazing
 

I think hazing is wrong and immoral. As one of the older members of this board ,38, I lived through hellweek, rallies/line ups, walks & other forms of stupidity. In1986 I spearheaded a movement to abolish hazing in my chapter, we didn't get rid of everything but abuse was reduced substantially. I caught a lot of grief pushing a "no hazing policy", remember I did go to school in Texas and a lot of guys thought if you were anti hazing you were weak.
All of this being said I think the modern definition of what constites hazing is a bit broad, examples:
We had a three story house with front and back stairs. Pledges were not allowed on the front spiral staircase under penalty of possible blackball. hazing? I dont think so. We also required pledges to work cleaning up the house on Sunday from 8:00- 10:00 a.m. hazing ? I don't think so. Pledges sat at separate tables at chapter dinner on Monday night and had to wear coat and tie. They also had to stand when our housemother came in for dinner. I don't call these activies hazing.
Hazing is painful and or dangerous physical activity or extreme verbal abuse. Bottom line I don't think its hazing to make pledges earn initiation by showing responsibility, respect and discipline.
What does everyone else think?

PsiU, I encourage you to do a search for the Alpha Kappa Alpha thread that deals with 2 women whose families are suing the chapter, the international sorority among others for approximately $10 million dollars. Sorry, I mean no disrespect to AKA as a whole, because you're a fabulous organization, but this is one instance I can remember off the top of my head.

When people file law suits, they go after the deepest pockets which usually means the Headquarters and the college.