What she said!

And I'm sure that's why these alumnae are upset... because of all the virtue signaling... ;)

All of this. And quite frankly, when AST posted their "messages of inclusion" on Instagram, which read much like other NPC organizations' messages, there were a lot of members who demanded more. There were sisters who were flat out upset. It was disheartening to read at first, but I agree that more needs to be done to ensure our members and chapters are not only more inclusive, but aren't flat out racist. We can't just post a message of inclusion and think that's enough. We need to take action.

I attended a workshop a couple weeks ago which included both collegians and alumnae of all NPC organizations, and the first part of it was a question-and-answer portion where black women in the NPC were asked questions about their recruitment experiences. They provided answers for everyone to hear ahead of going into smaller breakout groups for more personal discussions. One of the women when asked, "What should chapters do to be more inclusive," answered: "Just like white women, we're not all the same. Make all women be seen and heard for who they are. But understand that black women are probably putting the most on the line by showing up for NPC recruitment." This really speaks to everything you said above, PersistentDST.

Another question asked in the workshop was: What were some of your fears entering recruitment? One woman made mention of glancing around during the first round of recruitment and realizing that no one else really looked like her. She believed she would have to work twice as hard as everyone else to receive a bid. Perhaps if she saw - even outside of an official recruitment event - the NPC sororities "mixing" with other more diverse organizations, that would have made that woman feel more comfortable. How many women of color out there didn't have that same level of confidence, even if minimal, to even try? How many walked away or thought NPC wasn't for them?

I'm sure the white NPC members here were already nervous and freaked out enough when they were a PNM. Add on that extra level of anxiety, panic, and feeling of being excluded and then wonder if you would have even tried, especially if you had no personal connection to any NPC.

Exactly this.

This this this. We have much bigger fish to fry, and us NPC groups have struggled to make the 'Not just four years... but for life!' more than just a slogan. Where is the disconnect? Why do PNMs and members only value the collegiate experience and dismiss alumnae membership? There are now so many ways for sisters to stay involved after graduation, but there is a huge dropoff. What messaging are we not getting across? Are we pledging legacies simply because they're related to a sister and not because they're going to truly advance our organizations beyond a few years?

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. All I know is that organizations have talked for years about getting rid of their legacy policies and something finally occurred to make them act. It always seems that NPC orgs won't make any huge, meaningful change until their backs are against the wall.

Question: can anyone tell me - outside of diversity or upset alumnae or doom and gloom and "the end of sororities as we know them" - what is the actual problem in getting rid of the legacy policies? Are they sustainable? As andthen mentioned above, at what point - if we're not already there - do so many women go to college and join sororities that we have too many legacies and the entire system gets watered down and becomes obsolete? When does it become - again, if it isn't already - too much of a burden on chapters to push through all of the legacies signing up for recruitment?

Oh, ok...thank you, that makes sense. I'm sorry I missed it. I actually know two of the women who were on the panel and I suppose I could always have a conversation directly with them.

Relax. The idea of changing a legacy policy isn't a Unanimous Agreement decree from the NPC. Some NPC groups chose to change the way they recruit their legacies. For these groups legacies are still legacies, only now recruited in a different manner from the old norm. Only time will tell if these groups have made a solid decision


On another subject, IMHO every PNM ought to want to cherish, enjoy and grow with the sisters and ideals of any group into which she may be invited. Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.

We have already seen them in recent years. I have heard about women who have even tried to upset rush parties. Some stay quiet until they join. From what I've been told, I doubt these people would be impressed by our grace, beauty, and wisdom.

What it comes down to, in one part, is what members were told when they joined:"your daughters will get this benefit (______ ) if they rush." Now they won't. That was one of the few benefits you get as an alum, and it's gone. Don't tell me no one freaks out when a benefit disappears in other organizations, I have seen people come apart when their credit card or grocery store or HOA changed benefits after years.

Our organizations have breathed "legacy" for years. My sorority has a legacy song that we sing frequently; others have legacy organizations for young women, and others have legacy clothing for babies and children. Some sororities have special legacy weekends for teenaged girls where they stay in the house. Is it any wonder that women hope their daughters will pledge their house? It must be wonderful to share initiation and rituals with a daughter!

One thing that I've seen online in the past week that bothers me: the attacks on women who are protesting the policy. Women who don't even know the protesting member are dogpiling and calling their sisters awful names. It's no wonder that there are women who are resigning or withdrawing monetary support. Who wants to belong anymore if you're attacked because of your opinion?

In some ways, it doesn't seem like a big deal: your legacy daughter doesn't have an automatic invitation to second parties and if she makes it to prefs, she won't necessarily be on the first bid list (at least 1 sorority hasn't done the latter for years). In truth, removing this will not increase diversity because sororities will always find a way to ask outstanding women back. I have never heard of a outstanding woman whom a sorority regretfully cut because they had to ask back a legacy they didn't want. They found a way.

Claiming that dropping these legacy benefits will increase diversity sounds so grand. I think some groups grabbed this moment to drop a policy they weren't fond of so they could look noble. Actually, it means less anguished phone calls from alums and no more.

And making decisions like these without input from the stakeholders? Baaaad move.

I watched my ritual online this weekend. A chapter sister saw my comments on here and gave me a heads up that it had already been changed in recent years and that I could watch it online.

I didn't want to watch it because I knew it would make me sad. I knew exactly which part would be removed and I was correct. The most beautiful legend and imagery from our ritual was completely removed. Why? Strong references to Christianity and Christ.

The "potential destroyers" as you called them are already in our groups and actively changing things. This isn't fear we feel. It's sadness and betrayal. I was naive to think that some things really mattered - like the permanence of our ritual.

carnation, thank you for saying a lot of what I've been thinking. My thought process on this whole thing is that if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her. I was on a reddit forum and DG was RAVING about how amazing it is that they eliminated the policy to provide an equal chance for everyone to be able to join. I'm sorry, but stop the nonsense. Removal of that policy will not allow everyone to join. EVER!

If NPC groups want diversity, they need to work with college campuses to create a climate that supports diversity, PERIOD!

So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back :(.

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:

stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.


Spot on, as usual.

Well for recruitment which basically served as rush they only gave an informational telling the history of their org and explaining to the PNMs what NPHC orgs are as a whole. The Meet The Greeks was a greek wide event and PNMs could go but it was only optional for those signing up for recruitment.

I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

Yea, that might be the first step in inclusion - invite folks over for more than dancing LOL

In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.

No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.

I didn't tell you anything about what your org should or shouldn't do. But obviously your organizations have found a need to evolve, so if that evolution means a previous benefit is no more, then perhaps the benefit conversation needs to be had. If you don't think so, more power to y'all.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just honestly trying to understand because it's not clear in my reading of this thread.

So she makes it far into the process, everyone likes her, and everyone wants her. Why would they cut her? If she's a great legacy who is a fit for the chapter wouldn't you rank her high enough to make sure she makes the cut?

Apologies if the terminology is off - trying to tap into my previous GC knowledge of these processes LOL

No, the thing is that a very small number of people think we need to evolve.

OK, say there are 5 rounds of recruitment (5 sets of parties). With most NPCs, a legacy would automatically get asked back to the second round. She could still be cut after 3rd or 4th round but if she was still in the running when the last set of parties (preferential parties/prefs) came around, most NPCs would put her at the top of the bid list with other legacies.

Each sorority has a different system by which their PNMs are scored (not going into that because it involves membership selection) but it is possible for a PNM to be liked very much by the members but not be on the first bid list just because of numbers.

Got it. I figured there might be an MS situation where we couldn't get into the weeds.

Thanks for the context.

Everyone who is invited to your preference (final) round has the potential to become your sister whether she's a legacy or not. If she doesn't initially get a space on your first bid list, she can end up with a bid if she ranks you #1 and you don't reach quota by the time you get to the end of your first bid list. Why don't you get to quota on the first pass on your bid list? Because some of those women may have ranked their other preference sorority as their #1 and they were on that sorority's first bid list. This is the "mutual selection" we talk about. The point is, you should only be inviting women to your preference round that you can see as a sister, because it's very possible that women who might not be comparably as desirable could end up on your bid list via the reason above or by playing by the rules so they make it as a quota addition. So if a sorority invites you to preference, they want you and that little perk of being a legacy puts her at the top of the bid list. If your bylaws change, I think it's cruel to invite a legacy back for preference with no intention of putting her on the first bid list.

I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's difficult to write about this without talking about membership selection.

^^^ All this! :)

Right, the last thing we need is to be the evenings entertainment. :rolleyes:




I understand that I don’t have a horse in the race and my organization does not have special legacy policies, so I don’t have an opinion either way.

But, please let me know if I’m wrong. I’m trying to understand:

The nature of recruitment is the mutual selection and the importance of “fit” in a chapter, right? So naturally, there will always be legacies who will not end up in their legacy chapter(s), based on fit or numbers, but there will be plenty that do, because the chapter wanted them and they wanted the chapter. I’m assuming in the past the legacies was put on the top of the bid list after Pref, even if the chapter loved other PNM’s more.

So all this is to ask (and again, I’m just trying to understand) if a chapter loves a PNM, regardless of her legacy status, isn’t that who they would ultimately want on the top of their bid list? If the legacy is a great fit, it seems like she would be extended a bid either way. Shouldn’t the individual chapters be able to make those choices?

If the chapter loves the legacy PNM, they know that they better love her a lot because she will be on the top of that list.

If a chapter is doing recruitment right, they believe every one of the women coming to their preference parties will be a good fit and they love them. Now, comparably there may be objective differences between two PNMs, it it's not like they're going to have a bunch of 2.5 GPA PNMs when their minimum GPA is a 3.3. So not all PNMs are created equal and legacy status is one of those things that under most policies would give a woman an extra advantage, just like, for instance, a 4.0 GPA may add an extra advantage to a PNM for a super academically oriented chapters.

"There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us" and this is "unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums" and now their effort and money "won't count"? You make it sound like alumnae are trying to buy their daughter's way into a chapter and this is the only benefit in membership they have left. If that's the case, I guess my membership and donations are meaningless because I don't have daughters. I don't know if it was your intention to say this, but wow this sounded all kinds of wrong.

Hey, we agree on something! I could get on board with the idea of a legacy policy that doesn't require carrying anyone through first round but that gives "preferential treatment" to legacies at pref. I do still think there will be some angry moms during first round wondering why their legacy daughters weren't given a chance, but clearly the anger level increases as rounds go on.

I guess the one reason I can't totally get on board with this concept though is the nagging question I keep coming back to: who's actually upset about this? Is it the legacy who was released, or mom who always pictured her daughter joining ABC sorority?

If it's only the latter, why are we clinging to these policies?

Sometimes an alum works hard for a nearby chapter in hopes that they'll notice her daughter, in addition to wanting to work for her sorority. At times it works-- the chapter notices her work ethic, meets her daughter, and likes her. This past week, I've seen a lot of people sneer at women who hope or had hoped that their daughters would pledge their group and there is NOTHING wrong with that. They cherished their days as actives and would love to be there to initiate their daughters.

Sometimes the daughter wants this too and sometimes it's only mom. I have seen this with sisters too; sometimes they want to be sorority sisters as well but sometimes the younger one seeks something different.

As far as not continuing to support a chapter who dropped her daughter? I understand that. I know 3 different women who were working in their sorority chapter's kitchen during recruitment when someone came back and told them that the chapter had cut their daughter. Every one of those women left immediately and when their daughters pledged other sororities, the moms immediately started working their hearts out for the other sororities. Not a person who knew any of these women, both moms and daughters, faulted the moms for never darkening the doors of their chapters again.

I have been reading all of the no-legacy threads and debating whether to respond, but I think it bears hearing. So here is a little of my Greek life story.

I was the first in my family to go to college and therefore the first to join a sorority. Note that this was pre-RFM days, so freshman year rush led to being cross cut and then pledging sophomore year, vowing to one day be the chapter’s Rush Chair to prevent other girls from being cross cut. The year I was elected Rush Chair, my biological sister (SIS) went through. I 100% let her choose her own sorority and was ecstatic that she chose to pledge mine! Her BFF pledge sister was eventually chapter President and we spent a happy 3-4 years together as National Officers.

Fast forward a few years and BFF was diagnosed with cancer. Dear SIS was with her until the very end. Fast forward 7 months and sweet niece (SN) was born and named after BFF. Fast forward 13 years and SIS unexpectedly passes away.

SN is now in high school and with zero prompting from me says she wants to attend her mom’s alma mater and to join her mom’s sorority as a way to feel connected to both her mom SIS and to BFF. Thankfully, this is not a crazy Southern recruitment and my chapter is a solid middle of the road group and will probably welcome SN with open arms. But if my GLO adopted one of these no-legacy policies & didn’t even give her the courtesy of a first round party invitation, I would be INCENSED!

No exaggeration, there will probably be 100+ rec letters sent to the house for SN from about 7 years worth of our chapter sisters, so SN will definitely be on their radar. But, I hope that this wave of inclusivity and diversity doesn’t stop our chapters from showing a little grace and kindness toward the families that have loved them for decades.

Gotcha, so basically, each PNM would have to be 100% judged on her own merits (grades, recs, fit, etc.).

I could see why there’s disappointment, because many ladies want their daughters/granddaughters/sisters to be their legacies. But I’m sure if the PNM is a fit for the legacy chapter, the policy change shouldn’t be an issue for them either way. Seems like if it’s about each PNM finding their home to have their own experience, legacy or not, they will.

Unless I’m understanding this all wrong. Bless your hearts, because recruitment seems complicated! :)

It would seem that way but it's a kick in the teeth for moms who want to pin their daughters.

I think it's easier for legacies to pledge their moms' sororities in the NPHC. Today while out walking, I saw our Delta neighbor and I told her about all this and asked her what she would have done if she had pursued Delta (her mom's group too) for years and never been accepted. She looked confused and said that that never would've happened. She called her mother over and asked her if she'd ever heard of that happening to legacies in the local chapter. Her mother said, "No, not even with the girls who were odd as long as they did the correct work they needed to beforehand." (Ha! Mom is blunt. I can imagine the chapter conversations about someone's weird daughter.)

Two other ways the NPHC and the NPC differ: y'all have 4 sororities and we have 26. We have quotas and you don't (neither do NIC fraternities that I know of). Quotas, put in place so that some groups don't take all the top girls and leave other groups to waste away, are part of the reason that we can't pledge all legacies.

In my experience, I’ve seen legacies who have been denied for various reasons. It happened to friends of mine in both undergrad and Alumnae. I happen to know a couple of legacies who waited years before getting an opportunity, including two of my line sisters and a few ladies I helped to bring in my Alumnae chapter recently.

My organization does actually have limitations on how many can be brought in. At large schools, HBCU’s, and some Alumnae chapters, where 100’s of interests apply, a legacy can very well be denied because there simply are not enough spots. Unfortunately, this happened to my cousin a couple of years ago. She had a great resume, but the competition was massive. For some chapters, picking all the eligible legacies would eliminate any other qualified women.

It’s not that it’s something that doesn’t matter, but legacies have to research, get to know members in their chapter of interest, support programming, serve their communities and carry themselves well on campus or in the community, just like all other interests. My best friend didn’t tell anyone she was a legacy and the chapter was surprised when her mother showed up at initiation to pin her. Either way she was Delta material and that’ll always shine through! Membership is a privilege extended to each Soror on their merits.

Several years ago, didn't some women sue AKA because they weren't selected for membership, or am I imagining it? It was something about growing up as legacies and expecting to be automatically chosen. I thought I read it here on GC, but maybe not.

Anyway, carry on! 😀

Yup. And they lost.

https://diverseeducation.com/article/66460/

tl;dr: In the event of a school limiting the number of people who can be taken at one time, the sorority had an internal policy of ranking legacies. These two women (and several more) were not selected because their upperclass standing was held against them. Their mothers threw tantrums and sued.

Did this petition include mention of the legacy policy?

I'd be interested in seeing some actual numbers in terms of how many WOC are going through NPC recruitment, and how many are given a bid. I realize that may not be possible, but from my admittedly restricted view, the problem is more a case of getting WOC to go through recruitment rather than those who do not getting a bid. I am also aware that this will vary widely amongst campuses, but i would be very surprised if the issue is not more one of getting WOC to come through recruitment instead of those who do being denied a bid. Are those who are coming through dropping out/not getting a bid in higher numbers than traditional PNMs? Are we attracting WOC in the first place? If not, why not? I'd think exploring those questions should be the focus before deciding the best way to proceed.

In our town, especially at the high school that all my kids attended, Asian and Hispanic women do rush and pledge NPCs regularly. I haven't known of a local black woman to rush an NPC in the last 20 years and like I said earlier, most of that is likely due to the community culture. The NPHC chapters here are very visible and do a huge amount of good work. Many women are legacies and they want to follow their relatives into the chapters. And also, the black high school teachers and administrators wear their para all the time and have their symbols all over their classrooms, offices, and cars.

I wish the NPC would be that visible.

Both things need to happen. On certain campuses, BIPOC are not going through NPC recruitment, because they know they don't have a chance at getting a bid. These women can go through recruitment all day long, but when they are viewed differently during MS because of their race then they have no chance. A woman can be given a bid to a chapter, but then later resign her membership because of the unchecked microaggressions and out right racism in a chapter. The approach has to be two pronged--we (general NPC here) need to teach our members how to be anti-racist AND how to recognize the need for change with certain practices on their campuses.

This. And was the general membership polled or did you cave to the demands of petition signers who might not have even been AOIIs?

If a woman has had a certain NPHC group on her mind for years and she's done the required things but still doesn't get in, what happens to her? Is she shunned by other sororities because she showed her preference for one? Will she always have to be independent?

I know many AOIIs, some whom I gave birth to, who knew nothing of this new policy until it was a done deal. These are women who stay in touch with the organization. Some have legacies yet to go to college. One is a chapter advisor.

Can we say "disenfranchised"?

One way to lose supporters quickly is to not involved all stakeholders.

You are kidding me. None of them think they will be listened to. And if AOII is going to put this divisive policy out there, they should expect that non-members will comment, just like they did against others. That's what people do on this site. I expect that they would jump on my sorority if they were to pull the same crap.

And not unexpectedly, I just now got a Facebook message from an AOII who asked me, 'Did you know that AOII dropped their legacy policy? I just now found out." I'm sure she feels like no one will listen to her now if no one contacted her in the first place.