Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Where did this "idea" originate? Who is going to claim it or take credit for it? Step up and identify yourself(ves) please. And for those who are wondering, that's a rhetorical question and I know better than to expect an answer.

Calling out the elephant in the living room: it smacks of desperation at best. And a whole lot of (shall we just say) less than desirable at worst. Yikes. Just, yikes.

Frankly, navane nailed it for me and so did PGD-GRAD. And TriDeltaSallie (waving, long time no hear).Thank you for your diplomacy and tact. I'm all out of both those qualities and don't see a refill coming any time soon.

Let us hope this dies a very quiet death. Soon.

^^^ What they said.

Here’s an idea I think that could work:

The NPC itself (not individual orgs) would establish some sort of Pre-Greek Club at community colleges for students who are interested in going through recruitment after they transfer to a 4-year institution.

This club could provide:
-An opportunity to learn more about what joining a sorority would be like
-Community Service (something to put on their “recruitment resume”)
-Academic Support
-Recruitment Prep- help to get recs, conversation practice
-Networking with current NPC collegians and/or alumnae

If the members successfully meet Pre-Greek Club goals by say, participating in a certain number of hours of community service and a having certain GPA, they would receive an official status that would give them an extra foot in the door, but not a guaranteed bid when they go through recruitment at their 4-year school. Maybe they would be invited back to the first invitational round, but then after that it’s up to the chapters to decide if they are interested. Or maybe have a special quota number for Pre-Greek transfers.

This obviously avoids all the sticky affiliation scenarios listed in this thread, but it does open up the possibility of NPC membership to a new audience of women who otherwise might have not been interested (or even women who *are* interested, but as a junior transfer, they assume shouldn’t even bother to try).

This does mean collegiate chapters would need to be open to a more diverse group of PNMs- you’re going to have older PNMs, PNMs with jobs, PNMs who live off-campus, PNMs who are first–generation college students. But if the point of the NPC task force looking into CCs in the first place is to expand membership beyond the usual low-hanging fruit, then this could be a place to start.

I don't see this going over well at all.

And then, after a decade of CC women who move on to join an NPC group, possibly noting the great majority of groups have not offered many/any memberships to said CC club women?

I say no to specific CC clubs.

Keep MS as it is now and let each of our 26 member groups make their OWN decision to offer membership to ANY specific "type" of student.

No. I agree with so many others that this is a really bad idea. How exactly does one have a cohesive (and yes still diverse) group when members are 18 and 40? Members who never have time for the sorority because of work? What's to stop a married gal from joining but not having time because of, well, she has a husband?

I have many childhood friends who went to CC for one primary reason: money. They needed lower costs and the ability to live at home, even if it was driving half an hour to school. Some completed a two-year degree and that was it. Others went to a four year school where most still had some type of part-time job to offset expenses. None of them had interest in Greek life, not that others wouldn't, but they didn't have the time nor the money.

Going the CC route feels like a very watered down experience that will open a Pandora's Box. No thank you.

[QUOTE=chi-o_cat;2475806

This does mean collegiate chapters would need to be open to a more diverse group of PNMs- you’re going to have older PNMs, PNMs with jobs, PNMs who live off-campus, PNMs who are first–generation college students. But if the point of the NPC task force looking into CCs in the first place is to expand membership beyond the usual low-hanging fruit, then this could be a place to start.[/QUOTE]

I've only been involved with chapters at medium sized or large universities. I can not see any of them wanting to pledge older women, women with (major) jobs, possibly off campus PNMs who might have time-consuming jobs or anti-Greek boyfriends. Their priorities lie elsewhere and no one wants ghost members who say they can't show up for required events because they have to work every day that week or their child is sick again. I have known of a couple of "older women" (ha!-both were 23) new members who did okay in their chapters but overall, they don't have the same mindset as younger women. We need women who will contribute a decent amount of time to their sororities!

I can in no way see any benefits to this idea.

In my experience as a collegiate member and as an alumna and an advisor, my advice to someone who returned to college in her mid 20s or up, is that the collegiate sorority experience has sailed. She should put her talents toward some other endeavor. The chapter I advised had a 30 something, married with children, woman come through recruitment. The girls to a fault thought it was very strange that a woman they considered "old" was rushing, not to mention married and with children. And she seemed a lovely(although misdirected) woman.

I think these women long for something they did not have (or did not have the opportunity to have) when they were 18-21 years of age. A collegiate chapter is not the answer for them-whether at a community college or a 4 year institution.

UCLA accepts a large number of transfer students, from CCs and other universities.
Every year, one THIRD of the women going through recruitment are upperclassman. So, most new member classes are 1/3 upperclass. (If the NM class is 75 members, 25 NMs are sophomores, juniors and, even seniors. This works out well because it can lead to a bit more mature decision making in the NM class!) These upperclass members are usually very active in the chapter for the time they are at UCLA (meaning, through graduation) since they have less time as a collegiate member than someone who joined as a freshman.

Also, I used to live in Atlanta. I know there are sororities at large universities in the south that will NOT take affiliates from smaller chapters, even if the sister is a standout.

Another reason CC Clubs aren't really necessary: Most Alumnae Panhellenic groups do invite/welcome students transferring from CCs to their Spring/Summer Recrutment Information Sessions.

Any increased quantity in NPC membership numbers, and thereby boost in quantity of dues, will not make up for the lack of scholarly quality of most CCs which do not offer the depth/breadth of educational degrees found at the 4 yr entities to which most NPC groups attain and aspire chapters.

By design, community colleges don't offer the "breadth" of a university - they offer 2 year degrees, but that doesn't mean the education is in any way shape or form inferior. When students take my freshman or sophomore classes, they have an award-winning instructor with over 30 years of experience in a class of 25 or less; at many 4 year schools, they would be being taught by a graduate assistant, or a professor who relies on graduate assistants who are taking their own classes, in a class of a hundred or more. We tracked students from my college and compared their eventual g.p.a.s and completion rate with students who started at a 4 year college - and our students did better. Universities accept community college credits because the students are getting the education they need to succeed in getting a 4 year degree.
It's no secret there are NPC sororities who would not deign to have a chapter at some schools by virtue of the campuses not have the cachet they require. (Looking at a certain NPC that loudly proclaimed they would NEVER have a chapter at Texas State because of an article in Playboy from the 70s. Their loss, I assure you.) That's fine. Their prerogative. But if the NPC is looking into community colleges, let's not adopt the stereotypical attitude of "Well, OBVIOUSLY community college students aren't academically or socially our equals." There are plenty of objective reasons it would not be viable, but to generalize and act like snotty mean girls looking down on community college students isn't a good look. Do we exist to share sisterhood, or to act as glorified cliques? And can glorified cliques continue to exist?
There are NPC sororities that thrive on smaller, perhaps less prestigious colleges. If they, or in fact any NPC member, after careful study and consideration, wants to try, as long as they go in with their eyes open, I'd say that's their prerogative, too. (And yes, I know all 26 would have to agree.)

I mean like in the 70s/80s. After your time summer child :-)

Bravo! This exactly. Look at where your chapters are. Do you see a trend? Have they been staying at Big State U/Private prestigious U or are they moving towards the many newer 4 year schools that are popping up? UAB was an "extension center" for the main campus for decades before it came into its own. Stop and look at all your chapters...check out the map I'm sure your group has of locations. What do you see? Christopher Newport? Grand Valley State? UC Merced? Where were these places 15-20 years ago? And where were your groups? If we can survive and thrive on these places, I'm sure the leadership of our groups and NPC will make the right decision for CCs. And as I said before, reach out to your group's extension officer and express your views. Anchor love to you all.

I'm pleased to see a few are at least open to the idea. The "only 18 years old, socially prominent, listens to one's elders at alumnae Panhellenic meetings" seems it would do more harm than good in today's society.

I don't know how it will work, or if, but it bears exploration.

It's also important to note that more and more community colleges are offering four-year degrees that can be completed entirely on that campus. This article from last April says that 26 states have authorized their community colleges to offer four-year degrees, and that 27 of Florida's 28 two-year institutions now offer four-year bachelor's degrees. There is a growing segment of the college-going population that stays at a community college for their entire higher education experience, and that segment is not being served at all by the Panhellenic experience. There are even some schools, like Richard Bland College, that are two-year institutions that offer the full residential college experience and have guaranteed transfer pathways to four-year colleges. I do think transfer affiliation issues would have to be worked out first before a sorority starts plunking down chapters at every associates' degree-offering college in a state, but that's up to each individual sorority to decide what works best for their member experience.

Re: Titchou's excellent point about where expansion has been happening in the past 15-20 years, there are only so many established prestigious universities with fraternity and sorority life, and only so many that are hospitable to new chapters for a litany of reasons, and only so many that a given sorority has the local resources to coalesce around a new chapter. If ADPi had to choose between starting a new chapter at University of Alaska-Anchorage or Palm Beach State College, I know which one would be easier. Additionally, chapters at state and community colleges wouldn't need housing so they'd be much cheaper to start than a chapter at Big State U that needs a McMansion to be successful.

SWTXBelle & titchou, we're gonna agree to disagree on this one. FWIW I don't see my response as "elitist" or "mean girl clique" and would be more than open to you telling me your perceptions of my own words. Perhaps it wasn't directed at me specifically however I will clean up my own doorstep if necessary. And I will follow DGTess and watch the exploration with some interest. *shrug*

Oh, one more thing: what is with articles from the 1970s dictating Texas behavior in the 2020s? Sheesh. Who has that kind of time?

We're good, AZTheta, and I wasn't thinking of your response specifically; to be honest, I could see some other posts as veering into snotty clique territory, so regard my post as being prophylactic!

If you (this is a general "you", not you, AZTheta!) look at NPC history, you'll note there was a time when "teacher colleges" were beyond the pale for the NPC, which resulted in the Association of Education Sororities being founded in 1916. I'm sure there were discussions similar to those we are having today (maybe by carrier pigeon?!) when Sarah Ida Shaw Martin petitioned NPC on behalf of AES in 1920. She was unsuccessful, but eventually in 1947, the AES joined the NPC, and we got our wonderful panhellenic sisters in Alpha Sigma Tau, Sigma Sigma Sigma, and Alpha Sigma Alpha.

All community colleges are not the same; there are quite a few that I can think of here in Texas which would be fertile grounds for chapters, and many that I don't think would be viable.

I'm going to wait until the NPC committee reports back before deciding. I think it behooves us to be as flexible as we can be in thinking ahead. We have survived lo these many years because we have changed as our society has - we are in the midst of a huge upheaval which will result in a different campus atmosphere across the board. We need to be flexible if we are to survive.

And yeah, that NPC is missing out on a great, dynamic campus!

And, while all 26 would have to agree on the policy, not all 26 would have to agree to attempt to colonize at CCs. Some could say, "While this may not be a good fit for our organisation, I can see where others may want this opportunity."

I believe that some will turn it down because they don't want the pressure from CCs to colonize. In these days, who needs more grief? And who needs the grief a mad CC member would cause if her attempt to affiliate got knocked down?

Y'all know that she would show up here soon afterward asking us, as if we could, to give her permission to rush again. Bet me.

Last thing first - in some places the past is not dead....

First thing: I'm good with you also and my comments weren't directed at you. You know me too well for that. I just think it's worth exploring. As SWTXBelle said, some places might be a good fit - one here in Bham. But outside of that one, I can't think of a 2yr in Alabama that would be a fit. But I'm stuck in the Heart of Dixie so what do I know????

I honestly can not think of a good fit in Georgia.

If memory serves from back in the dark ages, transfers would not count toward total-meaning that it a chapter was over total and a girl sought affiliation, the chapter being over total would not prevent her from affiliating. That could add an interesting twist to chapter numbers-especially when there might conceivably be 20-30 or more CC girls seeking affiliation into one chapter. Mega chapters could top 500-600 members.

OMG! That means that if you got rejected as an affiliate, you would know that it wasn't because of a rule--they just didn't want you.

Forgot about that, FSUZeta and Carnation....oohhh..

Coming out of lurkerdom for this exciting topic :)

I have a little bit of a different perspective--maybe it's not that different, I don't know.

It's an open secret that the Texas fraternities pledge ACC students. Tons of young men who can't get in as freshmen move to Austin from Dallas and Houston, move into the West Campus student neighborhood, and rush. I don't know if they actually get initiated but they for sure call themselves members. Then they apply for transfer admission as sophomores and make it official.

This practice annoys me and I'd rather consider paths toward making it legal.

I don't think the sororities do this...?

I also think it's OK if some NPC orgs would be interested in colonizing at community colleges and others wouldn't. But some large urban community colleges are huge, offer 4 year degree, and may not resemble the image of community college that some here have...

"It's an open secret that the Texas fraternities pledge ACC students. Tons of young men who can't get in as freshmen move to Austin from Dallas and Houston, move into the West Campus student neighborhood, and rush. I don't know if they actually get initiated but they for sure call themselves members. Then they apply for transfer admission as sophomores and make it official." Breathesgelatin

They also did that in Tallahassee and Gainesville-caused all sorts of trouble.

I know (or know of) several guys who have done this at ACC. Most were successful, some were not. Just like those going to UT fully admitted or via PACE. Most of the kids (girls and boys) whose parents let them do this were just off getting into UT (the auto-admit is now top 6% of a graduating class, and the others admitted outside of that are few and far between). They're already highly successful students, they just want a UT degree & they don't want to spend their first year (25% of a typical 4-year degree) in the wrong city. They want too start making their friends in the dorms with the rest of the first-years.

The sororities do not allow you to go through as a full ACC student - you must have a UT ID# to participate. Most girls load up on college credits the summer before freshman year so that they can apply to UT for spring admittance of their freshman year.

I agree with this, just not sure what it would look like and what the ramifications would be. I also agree that some groups may not want to pursue it, but should consider voting in favor of it it if there are groups who would like to pursue it.

This sounds too much like when we were voting on mixers (which we did week by week). The mixer would get approved, only a third of the sisters would show up, and we would look like asshats. Then it came about that people were voting like this: “well I have a class/study group/rehearsal/what have you that night, but I voted in favor of it so other people could go and enjoy it.” After that, we said: don’t vote in favor of a mixer unless you can/intend to actually GO to the mixer.

I would use the exact same reasoning here. If you don’t intend to ever submit an expansion proposal to a community college, don’t vote in favor of it just because you think ABC or XYZ would want to. Let ABC and XYZ worry about themselves.

I don't think that quite applies to the way that NPC works (or at least worked in the past). Several of the groups that joined the NPC after its formation were forced to shed/spinoff chapters at schools that didn't fit the NPC requirements for a school with NPC chapters.

So given *that*, Sorority1 can't have chapters at Local Community College unless the NPC votes to allow to have its groups have chapters at schools that don't grant bachelor's degrees. The question is whether Sorority2which doesn't want to have chapters at Community voting to abstain on such a vote counts as the same as a "No" vote or not (so if 12 vote yes, and 14 abstain does it pass? (Assuming a Majority is required, which I don't know)




(Current policy: The institution must be a senior college or university
that is authorized to confer a bachelor’s degree and that has received a satisfactory rating by the pertinent recognized regional association of colleges and secondary schools or other recognized agency and/or entity that confers accreditation in the relevant jurisdiction.)

The Unanimous Agreements require just that, I believe - a unanimous vote. I don't know about abstaining.

Remind me again, please naraht, which sorority are you a member of?

I get where you're going with this, but doesn't it have to be a unanimous vote? So just letting ABC and XYZ worry about themselves kinda screws them over, right? If it doesn't have to be a unanimous vote then, your thinking makes sense to me.

It doesn’t screw them over, it prevents a tiered system from forming. You’re going to have to have some canaries for this coal mine and we all know damned well that it’s not going to be any of the groups that are thought of as nationally prestigious.

NPC Unanimous Agreements
 

I was being lazy, but now I've done the research:

https://www.npcwomen.org/wp-content/...Agreements.pdf

TL/DR - UA V would have to be amended by a unanimous vote by all 26.

There are already well-known "tiers", if you want to call them that, because all of the NPC sororities have different criteria for presenting, and some are not interested in smaller, lesser known colleges, while others enthusiastically open chapters at the same. Horses for courses.

I’m not trying to be dense I swear, I just want to understand... How does it NOT screw them over
- if ABC and XYZ want to be those canaries you speak of
- and PDQ does not, so they vote against it
- so ABC and XYZ don’t even get a chance to try, because PDQ doesn’t want to? (Given that all 26 have to unanimously decide to try it)

How is this any different from an extension happening At a 4year and groups not choosing to put in a packet for whatever reason?

It's not; you are exactly right.

Ok thanks. I really was feeling dumb there for a sec... :D