I am gonna say somthing that is really unpopular. These girls did not have to die! EVERYONE even the 2 young ladies, God bless thier souls, themselves share in the blame. People have choices and they had to know what they were doing was illegal. We have to change the MIP for the better. No process will satisfy everyone but the process should train all of us to be good members of our orgs. Also unfortunatly all of us here can see something went on BUT we are not 100% sure what really happened. Do we know if these girls were pushed into the water, walked into the water or got swept up in a tide. Always remember in America it is what you can prove not what really happened(Right or wrong). AKA2D is right all this anger will not change anything because 6-12 months from now we will be talking about another hazing incident with another org. PLEASE We need to work together to bring a process that teaches and not injures. A weekend is not enough to IMO to teach someone about Alpha but I also don't feel that death teaches anyone anything about Alpha. No one goes into the process, Big Bro/Sis trying to kill someone. If they do then they are viruses in the world that must be erradicated. But these girls died cause of bad decisions on everyone's part. Let us be better and make sure that in the future we make great decisions about the process and change it to work with our each individual and dynamic org personalities.

Sphinxpoet

From the other forum
 

Like I said earlier... There is NO reason not to make the "transition" into a member of our illustrious organizations a "family affair"... Meaning... Allow responsible parties for the inductees to attend some MI events--such as a "reception" perhaps??? I dunno... The whole concept of Rush is either gonna havta be eradicated or drastically changed, 'cuz the way it is now, Rushing ain't workin' for folks... I.e. These girls would have walked into a Rush when the chapter was reinstated, automatically KNOWING they are members of the organization, and haven't a clue about our symbols nor their meanings!!! It's as if these girls were "automatically guarenteed" membership 'cuz they went thru some (and I MUST curse here) BULLSHIT!!! Oh, and they full fledged-Pink and Green members... Whatever...

I know that sometimes our orgs have their differences, but that is okay 'cuz competition is a positive thing... However, note comparisions may need to be considered... ESPECIALLY out in Cali!!! I know when I was becoming a member when above ground pledging was legal, members from other organizations would often put me and my fellow line sisters in check... Not because they wanted to assert their superiority, but 'cuz they knew it would be for the best for all of us...

YES, when we take our vows to become members, we are now new creatures within society. However, over the years, making the transitions into new members carrying societal responsibilities has waned... I am not say all new members, but more often than not...

Another item is can we really go back to submitting invitations for membership to join organizations as undergraduates? Really, that is one of those nuances that is hard to distinguish the morality... On the one hand we do not want to discriminate, but on the other, keeping that idea "pre-selects" members--where "background" checks can be done... We can always have a bidding process like the IFC and NPC...

Those are my suggested actions. I dunno if they'll something we want, but the way we have it now, gots ta change...

I respectfully disagree
 

I must respectfully diagree with this statement. Pledging was NOT safer 15-20 years ago when it was "above ground" because "under ground" hazing still occured. The difference between now and then is the technology that makes the reporting of it more widespread now. We just didn't hear about it then the way we do now and in fact situations were purposely kept quiet. There were deaths, maimings, etc. then that led to the abolishment of pledging. HBCUs were threatening the removal of all BGLOs.

My point is really this--as long as you have hazing, it does not matter whether the process is called pledging, MIP, or whatever. It does not matter if the process is one day, three weeks or six months. It does not matter if Intake is done nationally, regionally or locally. These situations will continue to happen.

And I agree with your statement that there is really nothing the national orgs can do to stop it as long as there are people willing and ready (on both sides) to get their haze on.

Update
 

Re: I respectfully disagree
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ladygreek
[B]

I must respectfully diagree with this statement. Pledging was NOT safer 15-20 years ago when it was "above ground" because "under ground" hazing still occured. The difference between now and then is the technology that makes the reporting of it more widespread now. We just didn't hear about it then the way we do now and in fact situations were purposely kept quiet. There were deaths, maimings, etc. then that led to the abolishment of pledging. HBCUs were threatening the removal of all BGLOs.

I agree with you 100%. When I started college in 1987, the chapter of a sorority which i wont name, on my campus, was serving out a suspension for something that was done to the pledgees two years before. This is during the above ground pledge process so I dont believe changing the MIP Process is going to do anything?

FYI
 

The mother of one of the drowining victims will be appearing on "Dr. Phil" on Monday, September 30. Check your local listings for the time.


www.drphil.com

(Go to the "Next Week's Shows, click on Monday)

Re: FYI
 

Did anyone else see this??? I was kinda disturbed because for one the boyfriend and the mom were only on there for like 5 minutes literally and also because the boyfriend said something like the saturday before they died that the pledges, or whatever its PC to call them, participated in a similiar event with going to the ocean at night and being bound. This is such a tragedy and I think this was an accident but I don't understand how it seems everyone feels the need to blame someone. If anything is to be blamed its the process, a process that so many people feel like they have to go through to belong and that is quite frankly outdated and almost barbaric. I don't and wont apologize for saying that. Hazing has taking too many precious lives, and you have to put the blame where its due, on old traditions that people feel the must endure and also execute to get the love and respect of their fellow peers. Even the AKAs who were pledging them are a victim of this, can you imagine living with the guilt of being indirectly involved with the death of someone who wanted to be your sister??? Its truly sad that sisterhood and brotherhood has come to this...:(

OK..................
 

I just heard about this and all I can say is WOW!!!!!!!! I can't believe that this has happened. It truly saddens my heart. Also I heard that one of the family members is asking for 100 MILLION DOLLARS :eek: :eek: !!!!!!! from Alpha Kappa Alpha. I don't think that it's going to hold up, especially since the chapter was suspended. :(

YES TWO WOMEN ARE DEAD! NOW WE AS BGLO MEMBERS MUST MOVE ON AND FIX THIS VIRUS AS AKA2D HAS STATED....


However, we must be realistic. No matter what new process we introduce, things are still gonna be the same unless the mentality of members change. I seriously want to explore others option for MIP. We have to find ways to stop the senseless MURDERS of our own in the name of greek letters. And how do we really stop underground pledging? I know people who have pre-pledged before they even knew whether or not they had been extended membership. Maybe "pre-selection" might be a viable option. Or the bid process that the IFC and NPC do. I'm not saying that these options are right for us, but we have to do something. And before some of you say how we should never do this, think about how we might not even have organizations to have Intake. Or how this is bad PR for all our orgs. Membership Intake and reclamation are the lifeline of our orgs. Any suggestions on how we should conduct Rush, Intake?

IT'S A MENTALITY THING...
 

Like so many have said before, no matter what we put on paper (MIP, rush, whatever we want to call it), NOTHING'S GOING TO CHANGE until we change our mentality.

We have now created a monster, yall. Our mentality of "skating vs. pledging" has turned into an entire culture of madness. Because THIS IS MADNESS. Cuz you want to know the truth?? Somewhere out there, someone who isn't posting, and isn't speaking too loud is STILL applauding the events that led to these ladies' deaths. Someone is STILL beating their chests talkin' bout "yeah... THAT'S hardcore!"

It's madness.

How do we change it? How about we stop putting those who went through MADNESS up on a pedestal?? (That was then, this is now. Get over it.)

How about we start EDUCATING our undergrads? As grads, it's easier for us to see the bigger picture, to see how USELESS these hazing rituals are. And for a lot of us, we didn't fully understand all that while we were undergrad. So how about we ENLIGHTEN OUR UNDERGRADS?? (And not just throw the books at them?)

How about we remind ourselves that our founders DID NOT STAND FOR THIS??

How about we think of that little boy with no mother??

How in the WORLD are we going to explain it to him?? "My mother died trying to do what?!"

AS MUCH AS WE ALL HATE TO ADMIT IT...............60% OF THE SOLUTION IS THE ELIMINATION OF UNDERGRAD CHAPTERS:( Sad but true. And I still feel the process should be changed from there. At that age, you're so naive and ao many are willing to do WHATEVER to be DOWN. Because let's be real, we really can't change anybody's mentality. It's not likely after the age of 23 that a grown person will take another grown person something to eat in the middle of the night etc. risking losing their job. ANd if they will do that,................:confused:.............. But on the other hand, if organizations have rules in place where the process only takes 3 days......(I won't mention the org) it may not be that those individuals feel less than, they probably feel cheated that they don't even know the people they're supposed to call their LS's or LB's and that they don't know enough info about the org. So clearly there's work to do even if undergrad chapters are done away with.

The sooner Everybody's HQ realizes this, the better. I also think this would curb many people from trying to be in BGLO's for the wrong reasons i.e. stepping, being owt, trying to be someone they're not on the yard...that they weren't before the letters. It makes me sooooo mad when I ask Sorors who claim they Pledged soooo hard in undergrad why they're not active :mad:
"Oh I don't have the time" :rolleyes:
"Oh that was just something to do in undergrad" :eek:

I always think to myself, Is that what you said to get in?? Money is understandable, but you don't have to be financial to help out!! But I digress............


And I know the Mother is suing for 100 million, and good for her! I know my Mom would do the same thing! Nationals better wake up......

If you read the current President's message on the AKA national webpage, you will see that there was no active chapter at Cal State (the city chapter was suspended 2 years ago), and that the ladies who were "pledging" the girls may not have EVER been members of the Sorority.
This leads me to believe that even if undergrad chapters were eliminated, there would be women who would enter into an illegal and non-official process even though they would not actually ever be considered members of the Sorority. There are also Sorors and non-sorors (perps and renegades) who would continue to lead these "underground" processes. For example I know of a fraternity in my area that has been off of a particular yard for some time, yet new "members" continue to show up. None of them could possibly be nationally recognized! I know of no way for this fraternity's national headquarters to monitor this behavior (except to sue these proported members), because it is common campus knowledge that this fraternity is off the yard (and the old members were expelled from the fraternity), yet new "recruits" are ready and willing to "sign up" every semester. Even if expelled members are posted in a public medium like a web page, some interests will allow them to "pledge" them knowing that the process is not legal.
I don't have any answer of how to change THAT mentality. I personally feel that the Sorority should sue any person who proports to be a member, especially if they commit a crime while proporting to be a member.


In 1908....the year of the GREAT...............

I have read the Supreme Basileus' message on AKA's national website and I know that there was not an active chapter on the campus....

However, it is unlikely that a grown woman, with responsibilities (i.e. career, home, husband, etc.) would allow herself to be subjected to nonsense!! And if she does, I think it's rare that a judge/jury would feel sympathetic to her. That would also be their stupidity. I don't know about other orgs. but pledging DST with a fulltime job is HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!! It's another full time job in and of itself!! Also, if their names and chapter info are made public, like Delta, that would help the sorority defend themselves. They could hold the position that if the lady had done research, she would have known that the chapter was not there, and that the members were suspended. That's smart thinking! ;) It's obvious that someone at age 24 or 25 is more mature than a 19 or 20 year old, and would thus make different decisions. The fact that young people would continue to sign up knowing the chapter is suspended proves my point even more!! Undergrad chapters need to be eliminated! The process should be reserved for people who have managed to balance their careers and livelihoods, and want to add a BGLO to their life.

Bottom line, all of the HQ's have to protect themselves, and Delta and Omega have at least started by exposing the renegades and out of control bruz and sorors!!

Well weren't the women that died ages 22 and 24 along with the mother age 50 all grown with responsibilites and allowed the nonsense to continue for weeks? :confused: I don't see how getting rid of undergrad chapters is the key when you have people (as shown with this incident) age 24 and over who are still in school or go back to get degrees and decide to join an organization. How many times on this board have people posted "I'm 34 and want to apply for membership in undergrad". I don't think you can put an age on desperate/immature people who want to belong to something.

well said
 

Well said observant1.
Life is a continuum of wants and desires---- those wants do not begin or end with wanting fraternity/sorority membership. I will go so far as to do something that will make all of my old philosophy and psychology professors cringe--generalize. If you'll do ANNNNNNYTHING to get into a sorority or fraternity, you'll do ANNNNYTHING to get the other things in life you want--- that type of obsession and fanaticism is unhealthy. Surprisingly, if you track the BGLO hazings the make the news, a lot of the "hazing victims" are in their late twenties. Check out this site to read up--- ttp://www.deltasigmatheta.com/hazenews.htm

Why is that a "true" resolution to the issue? Why do you think that undergrads are 60% of the problem?

To play Devil's Advocate, if undergrads are 60% of the problem, and we as alumnae members are supposed to be teaching & guiding them, doesn't that mean that we as alumnae are failing our "problematic" undergraduates? How is someone who's only been a member for a year supposed to know anything if they're not properly taught & trained?

I can see the resistance to the elimination of undergrad chapters, and that's to be expected. However, in AMERICA, life is about choices and consequences. IF at age 24 or 25 you're still willing to subject yourself to nonsense, (this applies to graduate level) with a career, house, kids, or in graduate school etc....that's on you,...... Undergrad chapters are becoming too much of an expense, and one of the members of the divine 9 is going to go bankrupt trying to hold on to these chapters. (THis has already been predicted NUMEROUS times by people who study BGLO's, if you need sources, PM me). When it's all said and done, I believe I will be proven right. At the Zeta Boule (my sister tells me...), someone made this suggestion. Granted, there are alumnae chapters that get in trouble too, but if folx think it will be to the same extent that undergrads get into trouble, .......I don't know what to say about that kind of thought process...:rolleyes:

What's better,,,,,,,hold on to undergrad chapters...........or hold on to the Sorority??? :confused:

It would also be more helpful if people could give suggestions instead of just critiscizing what is being said.:)

Okay!!!! Let's start by getting real with people.

Incorporate criminal background checks, require that aspirants submit several essays addressing ethics, bring the the interview back.

Don't balk---- the requirements are just as rigorous to get into college, obtain employment, etc and if you are an active alum of a BGLO you know (1) your still learning and (2) its definitely a labor of love.

What we have to offer is a real privilege---- and you have to be qualified. Having the min. gpa is not enough or having a 4.0 and sitting in your dorm room, i.e no community service no campus involvement is not enough.

Okay, we addressed aspirants---know for undergrad members.

Simple--- idle minds and hands are the devil's playground------as grad we need to keep ug busy with community service and also participate in and support their initiatives---let them know that their current work lays the groundwork of the organization's future.

BGLOS ARE IN NEED OF BRIGHT, SANE, LAW-ABIDING INDIVIDUALS. This must emphasized at the beginning by letting our young people know that and I think BLGOS have been doing this. There is no way to work around, be "hooked up" or circumnavigating hard work.

For some weird reason people don't feel like the rules apply to them, they lack confidence and wind up falling prey to some sadist who hems them up in a room and beats the crap out of them and abusing them in the name of sisterhood/brotherhood.

To sum it up--- we need to teach our undergrads that we do not have to settle for less when it comes to taking people in-- -- and to view the intake process seriously and that their decisions on candidates not only effects their individual chapters but the international program

Many times what is done illegally in an undergraduate chapter (when it comes to hazing) is done by graduate Sorors who are often inactive and nonfinancial. Sometimes the graduates who participate in undergraduate activities are active in a grad chapter (believe me, I have seen them expelled). The mother who is suing has said on numerous occasions that the process was "underground", thus she knew that it was not a sanctioned process. I wish that she would have reported what was being done to the police before that tragedy occured. I also know that in a lawsuit, percentage of blame is determined, and part of assigning blame is to ask "did someone know or should they have known what was going on." The mother knew, the "pledgers" knew, the "pledgees" knew, but how the college or the sorority could know that a chapter that has been suspended for 2 years and has absolutely no membership could be having "lines" is beyond me. I don't know how they do it in Cali, but in Texas, I have yet to see a Soror recognize a renegade anyway (If you are not national, you are NOT a Soror regardless of what you went through!).
As for availability to info, I believe that the college made it clear that there was no chapter at the college, and I believe that anyone can log on to any college's webpage to get information about campus organizations just as easily as they can log onto an organization's webpage to find out who has been suspended or expelled. The bottom line is some people just don't care. Even if all BGLO's put suspended or expelled members on their webpages, this would not identify absolute perpertrators or renegades. In short, we are not able to send a letter to every man, woman, and child telling them that a chapter is not active or that a person is not, or has never been a member, and we shouldn't feel obligated anyway. As was said earlier, those women were grown, one was married, and one was a mother. I want to point out that even if undergraduate chapters are eliminated, that does not mean that some will not sign up to be hazed by "whoever" anyway, or that graduate members (not chapters) will not conduct illegal processes. As long as there are people out there who are down for whatever, we will all be subject to lawsuit. Whether or not a person has a real case, a lawsuit is bad for the image of the organization anyway, and to outsiders looking in, we will be just as guilty (ie. Alpha Kappa Alpha is dealing with this even though there wasn't even a chapter on the campus, and EVERYONE involved KNEW what was going on was not legal. If undergrad chapters were banned at the time, the lawsuit would have likely still been filed because the family said that any resolutions made to address hazing have been a farce).
I've also been curious as to whether any money was paid for this "process", and where this money is.

At this point I will just agree to disagree........

Like I said earlier.....hold on to undergrad chapters or hold on to the sorority.......the research is out there! I'm just glad my Sorority and Omega have taken the first step to exposing the bad apples in OUR organizations.

I do want to say that I do not believe that a proposal to eliminate undergraduate chapters would receive a favorable vote in any of the BGLOs. Because of how we are formed, nationals could not just make a policy like this with the support of a majority of it's financial members. I think that there is a reason that this vote would not pass. GLO outside of the D9 have dealt with hazing on an entirely different level than BGLOs have, yet they continue to have undergrad chapters. Why? Well, I think it is because we ALL were founded on college campuses to enrich the lives of college students, and a large part of our history is there. Without undergraduate chapters, we essentially stop being the Sorority that are, and the Sorority that we were founded to be. In short, without undergraduate chapters, Alpha Kappa Alpha would not be Alpha Kappa Alpha (remember, it was graduate chapters that were added, not the other way around). We would simply be a service organization like the Links, and believe me I feel that we are quite different. I think that others agree, or why else would people join both? They each offer something different to their members.
It is difficult to change mentality, but I truly do not believe that the MAJORITY of those who join any of our illustrious organizations are bad seeds. Unfortunately, the actions of a few impact us all. I just don't think that the answer is to "throw out the baby with the bathwater." There have likely been "fools" on college campus since there have been college campuses, but as we grow larger, the likelihood that these "fools" will join our ranks has increased.
I noticed that many of the GLO outside of the D9 require that undergraduate chapters purchase their own hazard insurance. Perhaps we need to look into this. I see no problem with adding background checks, and also, perhaps we need to look at having a probationary period after initiation so that we have more time to shape the mentality of new members before they are allowed to participate in intake activities.

I dont think anyone is criticizing what you are saying. Nor do i expect you to totally understand. Obviously there are those here who pledged through undergraduate chapters and therfore see the relavance of thier presence in the organizations. (Not to mention the impact it had on thier lives) Our organization was BUILT on the undergraduate chapter. AND in response to getting rid of them...THEY WILL NOT END THE PROBLEMS OF HAZING. (nor are they 60% of the problem) Think about the numbers.....If collegiates are 60% of the problem and they go on to join alumnae chapters......Then what percentage does that now make the alumnae chapter responsible for the problems........think about it. The graduate chapters today are (for the most part) Women who pledged on the undergraduate level.

I applaud the fact that you had a "nonsense free" process BUT dont think for ONE minute that graduate chapters are not guilty of the BROAD def. of Hazing. They just dont get reported as much BOTTOM LINE. I am sorry but Alumnae chapters have the largest incident of membership intake violations dealing with simple procedural process.

AND...I will go on to say that it is really not the reality that the majority of Collegiate Chapters are those who are causing the "Legal Liability" of the sorority. The majority of "hazers" so to speak are not walking around thinking of new and improved Death defying acts of hazing. I am in no way justifying it but we have GOT TO STOP THIS COLLEGIATE ARE THE DEATH OF DELTA (I can only speak for Delta) mentality. It is not the case AT ALL.

I say this as a soror who pledged in a collegiate chapter, went on to active status in an Alumnae chapter and am now a collegiate advisor. I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone....but we have got to stop thinking that elimination of a carrier is going to cure the disease.

Also Soror, you need to know that those who stand accused on the Delta Dsciplinary Action report are not neccesarrily there for hazing. There are "non-hazing" incidents on this list as well. Not to mention, I dont think we should be so quick to lable our sorors as "bad apples" You never know the consequence of why they are there in the first place OR if they are/were even guilty of what they were accused.

Neither is "better." When I crossed undergrad, my letters looked exactly the same as the letters worn by members of the local alumnae chapter. the letters collegiates wear now are exactly the same as the one I wear now as an alumnae member. Nowhere on those three lovely symbols is there a distinction between alumnae & collegiate. We need to be in this together. If not, division, not hazing lawsuits, will be the death of us.

Granted, one HEARS about hazing incidents involving collegiates more than one HEARS about hazing incidents involving alumnae. But is that really the case? It's kinda like saving an injured limb. I'm not going to cut off my leg just because it's broken in several places. I'm going to have surgery to put pins in it for STRENGTH and SUPPORT for the bone which is the foundation of all that allows me to use my legs to walk, run, skip & step ;). I'm going to put a cast on it for STABILITY while it heals. In a few months when the cast comes off, I'm not going to be able to walk on it like I used to because the muscles will be weak. So I need to do therapy to FURTHER STRENGTHEN that leg so I can do all that I used to do with it before it was broken. True enough, if I cut off my leg it's not broken anymore. But at the same time, I don't have my leg. I can't walk like i want to, I can't run like I used to. I'll have difficulty going about my business of being me.


The processes that are in place now have been as such for roughly 12 years and (caps for emphasis) IN MY OPINION, we haven't done everything we can to resolve this ORGANIZATIONAL issue. We have a way to go before we get to the point of disbanding undergraduate chapters. Changing member mentality about the "respect" given those who "pledged" is a start. Getting rid of this condescending alumnae v. collegiate mentality is another. That's all I'm going to say because my views on this topic and how it relates to Delta are not appropriate for a public message board. ;)


No one is criticizing what anyone has to say. Part of any healthy discussion, like this one, is the expression opposing views. Some of them are given to get the participants to consider a different point of view. :)

Remember, not all conflict is bad. Without conflict, there is no struggle. Without struggle, there is no progress.

:rolleyes:

Only time will tell. If/When one of the orgs goes bankrupt.......it'll be too little too late, and this whole discussion will be moot.

WHOA!!!
 

The elimination of undergraduate chapters will not eliminate hazing. In my opinion, three things are required internally:

1) more rigorous screening process, ie background checks, 2 letters of rec, multistep interview process, etc

2) more indepth certification process for those responsible for conducting the intake

3) reinstatement of a longer, more aboveground pledge process w/ severe penalties (expulsion, criminal prosecution) for those who are proven to recklessly or maliciously endanger a candidate

By taking these steps, we can eventually eliminate hazers within our ranks and screen the orgs from this type of liability. The corporate entities of our org cannot be responsible for those who are unrecognized. Unfortunately, non-Greeks are just as much to blame for this whole 'respect' aspect of intake.

Background checks sound good, and from a liability standpoint might be a good thing, but they will probably not weed out the crazies. I went to college in the 80s and I know some girls that were perfectly sweet freshman year and turned into Carrie, that chick from the Exorcist and Rosemary's baby rolled into one after they pledged. I'm sure any background check on them would have shown no antisocial behavior in high school. Now something that would be better, but would NEVER fly would be a personality test. Does this person has TENDENCIES to do something crazy? If course if it was retro a lotta folks would be worried! lol

mccoy red I also don't think that "above gound" pledging, at least as we probably remember it, is the answer either. I'm sure you know that a LOT of stuff happened before the rush/tea and before people were officially on line. I certainly liked seeing the pagentry of pledgees being dressed alike, walking in line, etc. I also had the pleasure of helping out several friends who were on like and I remember the "fun" of stealing and hiding them from their bid sisters/brothers, but remember that in most states those things would be against the law as acts of hazing. Now what might be appropriate is to announce to the school that these people are undergoing membership intake for X organization. That way, people will know who is pledging and will be watchful of any changes in their behavior. This should include professors. Just like teachers have a responsiblity to report signs of abuse in their students professors should have the same responsibilty, even though these folks are supposed to be adults.

I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other websites and I think that more active involvement from the graduate members of the various organizations is the only think that is going to get close to making a difference. I'm talking about grown men/women with jobs and family showing up on the yard on a Friday afternoon, stopping by the cafeteria on a Wednesday afternoon, going to the parties, step shows, community service events and announcing to everyone in attendance that ABC organization is non-hazing, this is how to define hazing and here is a 1-800 number to report any concerns. Problem is, will alum members do that?

There has to be major education on all parts as well. I'd like to see the NPHC commission a video that shows people who are the victims of hazing. I'm talking about the men who can't have children because of injuries sustained while on line, parents who's children were killed, folks banned for life and or who had to spend time in jail or pay some heafty fine, folks who did not find the sister/brother hood that they were looking for talking about their experiences. It's easy to say don't haze, but when folks see the consequences of that hazing it is a different story. This video could even be done in conjuction with the IFC and NPC and sent to every college campus in the nation. Every school has some sort of freshman orientation. Perfect place to show it.

Bottom line is we are talking about a serious culture change--not only in these organizations, but in our country. There was a time that sexual harassment was the norm, not the exception, in major corporations. Secretaries expected to be chased around the desk and there wasn't a darn thing they could do about it. Through many major lawsuits, law changes and education things have gotten better, and unfortunately that may be what has to happen here.

somthing to think about...
 

I couldn't agree more!

And that is the million dollar question. Ironic (and kind of sad if you ask me), isn't it?

The reason for the multilevel interviews is just that! I also thought about psychological tests that would help expose underlying tendencies.

That is exactly why aboveground pledging has an advantage - everyone knows who is online including family, friends, professors, and alumnae members. While some of these people will try to cause harm, the overwhelming majority are on the lookout to make sure evrything is okay.

Good ideas. The National orgs need to try something different.

Yes, secretaries expected to be chased around the desk by their boss, but I almost guarantee the the legal actions that broke open this whole sexual harrassment issue were not filed by or on behalf of secretaries!

This week's People Magazine has an article about this incident in it.

Solution
 

See Below!

Sorry!!

Solution????
 

Well, personally...I wouldn't want to see the undergrads go away...however, there is much liability involved if we keep them around and cannot figure out a way to curb liability. Furthermore, like others have stated, this will not eradicate 'hazing' all together. We have seen where hazing occurs on the graduate level as well.....

I don't know what the solution is. And I know that some people will say (and have stated) that grad chapters need to be inovlved more and we need an above ground process. But my question is...how do you think we got here in the first place? When there was an above ground process, things occurred outside the mandated 'sessions'.

And as far as grad chapters/members and grad advisors.....you have to understand...they have lives too outside the organization. I used to be a grad advisor. And a good one! But the chapter I was over still was involved in hazing. I went to step shows, was at the fundraisers, community service activities, parties and etc. It's like raising children....you teach them to be good, outstanding citizens and tell them right from wrong and you send them into the world each day hoping and praying that they will make good, sound decisions. You can't watch them 24/7. Well, its the same with an undergrad chapter. You crossed the girls...have meetings, tell them not to haze and the consequences of such and etc. and you go home and hope and pray they will follow your organizations rules (rules they 'pledged' to abide by). However, like with your own kids, some are going to follow the rules and some are not. You cannot watch them 24/7.

I think someone eluded to an organization with a short process whose candidates/members may feel as though they are missing out on something. If you are joining any organization for simply the 'process'....you probably won't be around very much afterwards and we don't need you. The process mandated by my National organization, Alpha Kappa Alpha, is sufficient. Leaning does not end once you get in. It's a continuous process with numerous workshops/activities after you enter her precious doors. Therefore, if one feels that they are missing something because of the process...I say seek out another organization because we simply don't need anymore individuals who won't abide by our precious rules. Hopefully, they can provide you with what you are looking for.

Lastly...Kudos to DST and Omega Psi Phi for their disciplinary list on the web (listing suspended/expelled chapters/individuals). However, I often wonder now if we all need to provide a list of 'active'/'inactive' members as well. Inactive members as well as people who have never been part of our organizations (ghosts) can cause problems for us too. And none of us have this information posted or disseminated amongst the public.

Have a wonderful, blessed day.

Well said, Happydaysf91

Re: Solution
 

Girl, you broke it down so it can now, forever, and consistently be BROKEN!!!

Ditto, double ditto, and TRIPLE ditto!!

Tell the truth, and shame the devil!!

(I can't think of any more ways to say, "you told the truth girl", LOL).

Re: Solution
 

ALAS!!!!!!!!!!!!! A ray of light!! This is about solutions and I think you hit the nail on the head. Grad members do not have the time to run behind each undergrad and tell them what to do, because they are adults and they are going to do what they want!

And you're right, if it came to banning undergrad chapters, (which no one wants) this won't end all hazing, but it would be a HUGE a step in a direction to curb the majority of it. And actually, some of the people on this board are sadly mistaken if they think nationals aren't seriously considering this as a solution. I don't know about you all, but I'd like to see my sorority around in 2013!! And that's what the goal is!

Someone stated that sororities started with undergrads....really??... :rolleyes: But if this were still 1913, and our undergrads were lobbying to have meetings with the President of the US (as of our founders did), we wouldn't be even having this discussion. We are living in a different day and time, and the young people today are not the same as the 22 in 1913. We are living in a morally corrupt society and our value systems are drastically different from 2002 to 1913.

And lastly, this is NOT about grad vs. undergrad, that is idiotic. :mad: THIS IS ABOUT OUR ORGANIZATIONS BEING AROUND TO CELEBRATE 200 YEARS OF EXCELLENCE AND BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!! Not about arguing who's better or not.

Oh yea, Happydaysf91 - thanks for mentioning the GHOSTS in our orgs!! From my experience they are the main ones trying to get a process together!!! If you aren't NATIONALLY recognized.......:confused: ..........nuff said!!

Re: Solution
 

Understanding what there is GREAT liability involved, we need to start figuring in a proactive sense what we're going to to keep our organizations in theire current format THEN if that doesn't work, start gradually cutting our losses a few chapters at a time. There's not need to punish all collegiate chapters for the misdeeds of a few members/chapters.

How true that is!



Yes, grad members have lives outside of the organization. And yes, it's hard for ONE person, heck even two people to advise a chapter. But no one said it had to be just one or two people advising. Share the work with an advisory team & lighten the load.


I dunno, I've been reading various comments in various places and it seems like we're giving up. I personally do not feel that we've done anything SIGNIFICANT to lessen coprorate liability or to effectively revise current processes. Yes, posting disciplinary report are a start, but we need to do more. Changing mentality is a huge part of it. True, 'grad v undergrad" is not SUPPOSED to be apart of it, but it is. I keep hearing/reading "get rid of the undergrads" as if it's a cure all...well it's not.

Alumnae chapters are not in the "business" of generating new members. By calling for undergraduate chapters to be eliminated that would require a MAJOR overhaul of how we operate & function. IMO, it would be easier to resolve the "smaller" problem of limiting liability & discouraging hazing that it would to reorganize.

It doesn't make any sense to me that we can invest time to help those outside our organizations, but we don't/won't/can't invest that same time to save our own orgs. But again, that's just my opinion.

Re: Re: Solution
 

I wish it were that easy. I have been trying to get an advisory Board for the past 3 years to work with ma and the chapter I advise. It seems as if WE dont see the need or the resposibility that WE have to reach back. And when I say we...I am especially speaking to sorors who pledged in collegiate chapters and had the privaledge of having an advisor so thier chapter could be sustained.

We talk a good game when it comes to "collective responsibility" But we dont walk the walk when it is time to attend the advisors training. OR EVERY single event of the chapter. We talk about the collegiates and the money they are costing us in liability. But are WE doing our part as well.

Before anyone even goes there...the chapter I advise was MW Region Chapter of the year won 3 Delta awards and 7 Greek Awards on thier campus, National Collegiate Soror of the year this year and I cant PAY anyone to be on the advisory team. (id do have 1 secondary advisor). SO having said this.....we need to figure out how we can first of all encourgae sorors to even take in the responsibility before we offer them as a solution!

It is sickening when I hear of a collegiate chapter who cannot be active due to the fact that there is no advisor. But that is a whole nother thread of discusion.

So True My Greek Sister...
 

That is so true.....its like that in 'probably' all our organizations.

And I know that graduate members could help out more on that level...but that's a hard job in and of itself. A lot of members have families and/or careers. And yes, you can organize those boards, but those individuals 'know' that they don't have to participate 100% of the time. They pick and choose. And ultimately, the responsibility lies on the grad advisor. It's just like in chapters, you can't make Soror Sally participate in community service, fundraisers or go to a conference...she has to want to do and additionally, have the time to do so.

And as one lady put it, we have the time to help everyone but our undergrads.....I understand. But you have to realize in most of our chapters (speaking generally...I'm an AKA)...we only have a handful of movers and shakers that are living up to the true meaning of our pledges....participating in community service, going to conferences and etc. Those handful can't run the chapter as a whole, watch the undergrads day and night (exaggeration), take care of their families, have a career or etc.

I'm not making excuses for graduate members. There is room for improvement. However, I'm trying to figure out what exactly people want from graduate members? Even if we show up to everything, have an excellent mentorship program in place, extend the 'process'....hazing on the undergrad level could still possibly continue...because we can't be with them all day and all night.

Re: So True My Greek Sister...
 

Again, well said Happydaysf91.... :D I don't know how many on this board are ACTIVE in a chapter, but so many times there's a small number of women that do all of the work in the chapter. We (Delta) always boast we are the largest, 200,000 strong etc.. but how many of us are active and doing our part? How many of us are truly giving back to the rich legacy of Delta Sigma Theta? If enough were, there'd be enough members to supervise properly over the undergraduate chapters. But at the same time ladies, there is but so much we can do. WE as graduate members cannot watch over the undergrads 24/7. Even attending all the legitimate events....that's not where the problem is, it's those unauthorized late night sessions that are the problem..... And to those that pledged undergrad, let's get real, you all know about the ways to get around the advisor and the tricks of the trade to avoid all appearances of evil....or maybe everyone here just went through Intake officially.:rolleyes:

All that said, I know this is a touchy subject, because this means changing the livelihood of sororities and fraternities, hbcu culture etc.. as we know it, but what else can we do??? There are other solutions, but how viable are they??

Probable Solution #1 - more members in all organizations need to be active so that the workload can be spread around efficiently and equally

Probable Solution #2 - change the mentality of people interested AND BGLO members re: the processes

Probable Solution #3 - preach to our undegrads until we're blue in the face about what to do and what not to do, how to pick members, consequences of their actions,...etc...

All of these things I've mentioned are personal decisions members have to make. Nationals can't make people be active, and how do we change a mentality that we have created?

I know none of us have the answers, and we're all just putting our heads together to come up with a solution, but I think the one the point we all can agree on is that there has to be a change. :(

Re: So True My Greek Sister...
 

Exactly, Soror.

I'm on our UG Activities Committee. It is DAYUM hard trying to handle 'regular' sorority business (service, committee meetings, etc.), life responsibilities, and still have time for the UGs. HECK, I'm single and childless and IT'S DAYUM HARD, so I'm sure that for a person married WITH kids it's EXTRA HARD. Anyway, we do what we want and don't do what we don't want... I tell ya, if you let it, you (as a ACTIVE Graduate member) can become very BURNED OUT!

Even with the UG committee, it's hard for the 10 of us, excluding the GA to make/support events. We can "talk" to UGs until we are Pink in the face, but doing the RIGHT/CORRECT thing is an INTERNAL issue. This is something that had to be taught when they came out of the womb. It doesn't matter what process an organization has, if one comes and is UNETHICAL, then that's it...he/she is UNETHICAL....simple as that! We cannot change THAT PERSON! He or she must be willing to change her/himself. Do we have time to wait for this to happen?

My chapter president says that "Doing the Right Thing" is a personal issue and it cannot be regulated, per se. I feel that if this was 100% accurate then we would not need LAWS. We have laws throughout this land and if someone breaks those laws, they are punished accordingly. What's different about our organizations? If we left everything up to each individual about "doing the right thing" (a land without laws) what kind of world would we live in?

I'm about "0 Tolerance." If you can't abide, you have to go!

Oh, if you think "stuff" doesn't happen on the Graduate level, then you better ask somebody.