My issue with this is: If UA has the racial problems that they claim to have, how on earth can a MULTICULTURAL sorority
survive on that campus?

Re: Neicy - please get a clue
 

Neicy said she was there for two years!!

Just so I am clear where is Texas on that list?

my apology
 

>>Neicy said she was there for two years!!<<

My sincere apology - let me rephrase. Neicy, for someone who is not a resident of Alabama and who's experience in Alabama was on a college campus, you make a wide array of blanket assumptions.
Racism, hatred, small-mindedness, they are everywhere, and they are most certainly not limited to southern states.

Not to discount what Neicy has said, but there is a stigma on the south that probably will never be undone. Im from DC and I go to school in Mass. I think the people up there have stereotypes of the south. They say they dont like yankees, they say the south hasnt gotten over the civil war. I couldnt believe I was hearing this stuff from those people. I convinced one of my good friends to go to Emory for grad school, and she loves it. Yes, I have experienced racism in the Alabama, my mom is from Decatur and Huntsville areas, but I have also experienced racism in the north like Massachusetts. Moreover, I have met some great people that were white in Alabama and all over the south. Racism is ubiquitous (sp?), and I think we as youths of the nation need to start tearing down the walls and barriers. These are just my thoughts.

I'm also an Arican American woman in an NPC sorority. First, my race actually never came to mind when I went thru recruitment, because there were already other African Americans in the NPC's on my campus. Plus, being from the Northeast, I never think race first. My first thought, actually, was appearance: was I pretty enough...

What I think happens is that NPC is never really "marketed" to us by our relations, so we don't think NPC first when we go to college. Also, as sad as it is, "race mixing" (yes, it sounds as oogy as the thought makes you feel) is still an unheard of notion in the mind of people today, so you may HAVE friends of another race, but deep, intense familial bonding with them is still foreign. You won't readily admit it, but it is.

I'm not speaking about anyone on this board, just in generalities. I know that the South still has some very racist areas, but racists are everywhere (there are these new fangled contraptions called cars and planes!!). But so are anti-Semites, homophobes, and a$$holes in general. If you can keep these disgusting characteristics out of your head and home, you may be a catalyst for change!

Specific to this issue:

The problem that most people had initially with this situation, before the various tangents were explored, is the difference between being offended by the actions of the young men in question (I am referring to he Holloween Party now) and an agency taking "official" steps.

Be offended, be outraged, take social steps to punish the chapter. That is all good.

But don't have a government or authority type agency such as a University step in and punish them for a Consitutionally protected activity just because you believe that specific application of that activity is bad.

Because that opens the door to some agency punishing you for an expression that others don't approve.

Keep in mind that the same agencies that we applaud for punishing this group were not very nice to Civil Rights Activists not that many years ago. But at the time popular opinion supported them . . . like it does here.

Fashions change. That is why we have laws that are supposed to protect us at all times.

We either protect everyone or no one.

Neicy,

Looks like we’re going to have to agree to disagree in large part on this one. It’s sad that we couldn’t have a calm discussion about a serious subject. But since you made a nice list (hey, you’re organized, I’ll give you that :))
I am proud of who I am and where I came from and whether you could care less doesn’t mean a thing to me, but thanks for reminding me how special the folks who do are to me. :) I hope you too can look back at your experiences and family and say that they have made you a better person overall. I give you a tip of the hat for catching the ‘alumna’ error, excuse me, proud alumnus – I won’t begin on your grammatical errors though (lol), good thing we’re all human and make mistakes. On a serious note, you harp on the idea that Alabama is one of the most racist states as your personal experience seems to have borne out. I will fully acknowledge that Alabama probably has more than its fair share of racist individuals, key word here is individuals, so if you want to call Alabama one of the most racist states, then I won’t argue with you on that point. I just object to your apparent characterizations of the state as a whole as such whether that was your intention or not. Again, we can agree to disagree.
On a related note, while I don’t think you can statistically track and plot on a map racism, you can track segregation which I would regard as an indication of general racial attitudes; please feel free to disagree, I don’t claim to be an expert on anything especially race relations, demographics, statistics or psychology. Please take a look at the following table that appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on May 9, 2001 of America’s most segregated cities generated from the 2000 census: http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/may01/SEG09G2.asp
Notice that the three most segregated cities according to this study (rankings will certainly vary by study) are Detroit, Milwaukee and New York City. The first Southern city comes in at #10, Miami. Surprised? I sure was, and yes, medium sized Southern cities were included in the rankings. What does that prove? To you, probably nothing. But I see it as an indication that racism, prejudice and stereotyping knows no geographic boundaries, thanks for giving us a demonstration from the wonderful city of Chicago, one of my favorite cities for sports and museums...and number 6 on the above list.

You asked, how do I know that the African American woman wasn't rejected because of her race? I don’t, never said I did. In fact I wrote that I thought it was likely that some individual sisters had voted against her because she was black. I really don’t see where you are coming from on this point. My argument is I don’t think she failed to receive a bid solely because she is black. I feel there were other factors in play beside race, an argument you seem to reject. I guess I would ask you a slightly refined version of the questions you asked me: How do you know the African American woman was rejected because of her race?Were you there?Did you personally witness people rejecting her?Or did you call her and just took her good hearty word? Again, it looks like we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Wow! I guess I’m going to have to run out and buy me a pair of these BluBlockers to hide behind. :D I didn’t even know they existed until you mentioned them. This is the most ridiculous statement that I think you’ve written yet. I might not be having fun hiding behind my Blublockers, but I’m laughing now. For someone who hates stereotypes so much, you sure seem to hurl a lot of stereotypical statements. I guess I’ll have to trade in my New Balance shoes, khaki pants and sunglasses on a leash huh? Too bad I’ve never worn that “frat boy” outfit either. I’m sorry, back to the real issue at hand. I see that you are correct in stating that you said earlier that Alabama is one of the most racist states. I don’t think anyone here disagrees with your assessment that Alabama ranks right up there in number of racist people. Good grief, I even went out of my way to point out earlier that I believe Illinois probably (I haven’t spent enough time outside Chicago to get an informed opinion of the rest of the state, have you?) does not have as great a percentage of racist individuals as Alabama; see I didn’t even need to take off my BluBlockers for that. :) Yes, you never said the entire state was racist, however your comments, choice of words and tone were such that they seemed to condemn the people of the entire state, whether that was your intent or not, that was how I read it.

I hope those of you who have never been to Alabama take the chance to visit sometime and form your own opinion, not an opinion generated from the media or the experiences of a handful of people like neicy. I hope you will find a warm and friendly state that love visitors to come to our state parks, play our world renowned championship golf courses (in Alabama??? Yup, the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail - http://www.rtjgolf.com/) and visit our historic sites including the Selma To Montgomery National Historic Trail (http://www.nps.gov/semo/) Yes, you will undoubtedly encounter folks you wouldn’t want to invite to dinner in your home, I’ve met these same folks everywhere I’ve been. But I firmly believe that you will find more good people than bad if you just take the time to sit down with them. I would like you to form your opinion based on your experiences, not from portrayals that may or may not be representative of the state as a whole.

I applaud those who recognize that racism, stereotypes and prejudices exist everywhere and are working to end it.

I wish the MCGLO the best and hope they make a positive impact on UA’s campus.

MysticCat81, I loved your comment about our right to say something stupid and to be rebuked for such, could not have said it better myself! :D

Swamp Thang, while we might not of always had the same interests and same ways of doing things (how boring would that be???), the brothers of the AU chapter of Omega Psi Phi I had the privilege of knowing were awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed being around them, I’m glad to hear that alumni such as yourself are staying involved. Keep guiding and molding upstanding young men.

Neicy, a final word and then I shall end this dialogue from my perspective, I wish you the best and hope you find somewhere positive to channel your emotions, with as much energy and passion you seem to have you could make a real difference somewhere.

Dang, I SWORE that I was going to stay out of this convo, so one post and I'm out....

Auak, please know that segregation deals largely with class and economics, not necassarily race. Chicago and other large cities are definitely segregated, but it's more by the haves and the have nots than by race. So, you may have blacks on one side of town and whites on another, but that's due to where each group can afford to live (which is a whole other topic all together). The difference is that if one of those black families moved into one of the "white" neighborhoods, I doubt they'd have to fear finding a cross burning on their front lawn.

Bamboozled,

Excellent points, now you see why I didn't profess to know all about such population statistics. :) What I was hoping to demonstrate (and maybe this was a poor example) is that division between groups exists everywhere, not just in the South. I will agree with you that class and economics play a TREMENDOUS role in how groups relate. I do believe that race and attitudes (i.e. sterotypes and prejudices) plays some part, as people tend to associate and live with folks that have common interests, backgrounds, problems, etc. Linking the statistics to racism itself was probably an error on my part. I think that your comments on demographics were a great insight on your part, thanks for the clarification.

I agree bamboozled. My aunt just moved to a predominately white neighborhood in Northern Virginia, and she has no worries. I guess some people might feel different elsewhere about moving into different neighborhoods.

Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

Personal experience isn't good enough, we need factual data to back up your claims.

Well neicy81, I see you have reared your head again to stir up racisim among the GCers!

We ALL do not disagree with you, but you seem to disagree with ALL of us!

You are the one who promigates all of the hatred that you profess is among all of us.

Is there still racial problems, will there always be problems between different races? Yes! And you for one do not help the situation at all.

You are one of the most racist people I have ever met anywhere!

You always attack everyone! It is your way or not any way at all!

You are not the Joan De Arc of Blackdom, yo are the Crown of thorns who want to prick everyone on site!

Get a life and figure out the first step is to learn how to mingle with people whether The color or religion they be.

Hitler used the Jewish people as a scape goat, just whom are you using?

I for one would like to see you spread your hatred somewhere else!

I know I will get a scathing response from you on this as YOU are The Only One on the site! DA!

I suggest everyone just ignor this and be on our way of trying to help each other in a more positive way.

This horse was beat to death on a previous site that you did, exactly the same thing! Do you feel sorry for the Dead Horse?

Re: Re: Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

I was teasing you hun.

Why can't we all just get along?

You can't see black people at night, white people in the snow, Asians next to beer, nor mixed people by zebras. Everyone has their faults. :eek:

In other words this finger pointing has to stop if anyone wants to solve any problems, because we all are part of the problem in some ways.

Hmmmmm
 

Pardon me for the station break.......
 

Just wondering Tom why the need to try and "call out" Neicy? :confused: Is it because you think she doesn't "play nice"? Is it because she is too agressive or because her opinion is not in agreement of the majority? So far, no one has resorted to name-calling or anything like that, so what is the REAL problem?. Everyone has different ways of debating her opinion. As has been said before if you don't like the topic of the thread, why check it?


She is not the only beating a dead horse. :o

Neicy is just one person, however that are PLENTY of folks responding to her. Apparently she IS NOT the only person who believes in the "my way or the highway" approach to their opinion. I don't see anyone else in here rushing to take her opinion as their own.
:rolleyes:

GREAT POST SAPPHIRE!!!:)

Damn, it's going to get hot in here when neicy reads Tom's post, lol. I just hope nothing get's deleted before I get out of my night classes. :eek:

Don't go to class tonite!

*lol*

:D


*lol*

Dyionus, I guess you just summed it up in a nut shell:D

Yes, it is her opinion but this was a on another thread! It was drifting in to the abyass of a dead hole!

The only reason I did finally get on this thread is becaus of the rift that was brought about by this person who seems to attack everyone who is not in agreement with her personall dogma!

If you do not agree with neicy then you are wrong!

Is that true? Are you just standing up for her?

I am out of here on this dead subject of bashing each other!

Um, Niecy... actually it was I who wrote that first statement you were quoting, not auakl. Perhaps you should engage in a little reading and realization of YOUR OWN mistakes as well.

Also, you seem to have gotten us confused before when you replied to me and said that you didn't care about "my wife." Honey, I'm a woman... hence the use of the word alumna and the fact that I was a member of an NPC organization. If you are going to preach reading comprehension, perhaps you should study a bit more yourself.

Just an idea... as auakl said, it's a good thing we're all human and we all make mistakes! :)

No, not really. I'm not standing up for anyone, specifically, at this time.

Okay... I didn't get to reply in full to Tom Earp since I was on my way out of the office, so I'm gonna do this now since I have more time.

Okay... first of all... was this REALLY necessary?
Don't you think that in stating this statement you are also making a judgement in a similar fashion? Or to quote your own words, don't you think this just helps "propogate all of the hatred." Come on now.... you're a moderator... so MODERATE not instigate!

Moreover, don't you think in making this statement,

that you are making a generalization that all the GCers hold the same opinion as you? Better yet, it seems as if you ASSume that we'll all naturally take your side.

Also, in light of the manner you chose to respond, doesn't it seem that you are the one attacking someone? As you seem convinced that neicy has come to do? (evidenced in the statements below)
To me, it seems rather difficult to conceive these statements as a means to "help each other in a more positive way" when they seem to be attacks every which way.

Now, the fact that I'm posting this DOES NOT MEAN that I am supportive of Neicy. Nor DOES IT MEAN that I fully support Tom Earp. Rather, I am simply trying to point out how criticizing one person can easily lead to the criticism of yourself, which in turn can easily be the cause of racism, bigotry, stereotypical notions, negativity, etc, that we all supposedly condone.

Sapphire,
Great post and I agree with you 100%.

And to think that I wasn't gonna read this thread.... wow.:eek:

1. A couple of things I would like to say. Tom is not a moderator of this forum. He is a moderator of his fraternity's forum on GC and not Greek Life, so your point about that is meaningless since he simply isn't.

2. The usage of ASSume bothers me. Why not use assume, because ASSume is an insulting way to make your point. Tom hasn't said anything that is just so universally ridiculous that you should say that. I will still say I have no idea why Tom writes the way he does in "Tom Speak".

3. Neicy has repeatedly made statements that are wrong but simply right in her mind. When someone makes a comment in regards to her statements, she laces her comments with insults. Funny thing, and in a sense ironic, is that her insults are mostly based on proving to someone else that they aren't smart.

Personally I believe everyone has the right to use their freedom of speech - even if it is to make comments that are filled with hate. But I would say that the school should exercise their right to rid themselves of this hate by eliminating this house. I would say that the national fraternity should exercise their right to stem off hate and promote the values of their founders by eliminating this house. And I would say that other chapters and potential new members should exercise their right to be part of an organization that does not promote such values.

-Rudey
--Eat meat.

Re: Re: Neicy - please get a clue
 

ARE YOU KIDDING?

Look -

Anecdotal evidence only goes so far. Neicy - Here, it seems you use a blatant logical fallacy to prove your point. Right here, you utilize an APPEAL TO ANONYMOUS AUTHORITY to state that "Alabama is one of the most racist states in the world" (ps - cite? also - how many states in the world?) . . .

Look - we've been over much of this before, in the infamous "PREJUDISM" thread . . . basically, you CANNOT assume you're correct in a seemingly subjective matter unless you can back opinion up with fact - so please don't.

Does this make sense to you?

There is wrong all over the place on this one - the segregation on the campus is NOT normal, and most likely NOT a result of simple random entropic actions. However, similarly, for you to make outrageous claims gets us nowhere, and in fact implies a decades-old thought process of assuming that stereotypes and generalizations are indeed fact.

(NOTE that ASSuME seems, to me, a fairly weak way to make an insidious point)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Neicy - please get a clue
 

Yeah, look back at my posts in all of these threads where you've shined light on the racial imbalance in the United States of America for the benefit of the rest of us morons - what an outrageous set of viewpoints I hold.

Do people even read others' posts?

what
 

Take away your comments which lack intelligence and your old jokes which aren't funny, and you're left with little else.

And let's not compare our education again - for your sake.

-Rudey
--If you really talk to people in real life like this, I hope you have a nice body at least.

Re: Re: what
 

Please be hot...please.

-Rudey
--If you're not hot, I hope you know how to cook or change the transmission on a car at least.

You judge many of us based on a debate over the INTERNET!!! How very sad.

-Rudey
--Laying it down like Dr. Phil.

P.S
 

In response to Rudey, I didnt judge you or anyone else. I did not say what type of person anyone of you are since I dont know you. I actually would like to get to know a lot of you and share new ideas, thats why I am on the internet. If you think I judge anyone, tell me where. I did not mean to offend anyone but re-reading my post I honestly don't see how I did. But many of you did try to insult Neicy and I don't understand why. I think I stated that in my original post. As for as it being sad as to how I responded, I am sorry you feel that way. But I really wish you would read my post as for what it is and not try to assume I meant something more than what's there. :cool:

Ahh...all of the old players are back...me, neicy, Honeykiss, Tom, KSig, PM_Mama....

Time for Prejudism part II.

Well Tom, you asked for drama, now look! You are up to your ears in it. Well, I would certainly be remiss if I didn't join in!

Neicy I am positive you can make a point without telling someone to read, saying something about a Ms. Cleo kit, and name-calling. Please prove me right. You have some valid points, but you are never going to get anyone to see them if every post is formatted this way.

As for the Alabama sorority racial demographic argument...uh...weak. Whoa, they have enough "BI-RACIAL" girls in their orgs to count on one hand! Now THAT is progress, baby! :rolleyes: Whether or not AL is the most racist state or whatever, that is pretty sad.

Tom...I agree with most, your post was pretty uncalled for. Neicy is not RACIST because her views are contrary to yours. She has had different life experiences than you have had or than anyone else on GC has had. If she spent 2 years in AL and those two years were marred by racial incidents, then neicy will be of the opinion that AL is racist. If bama_alumna has been there 25 years and has not experienced much racism then her opinion will differ. Who is correct? BOTH.

PM_Mama neicy is not blaming others for EVERYTHING. She is rightfully placing the responsibility for the pervasive racism that exists today on this country's founders and legacies. Don't make an umbrella statement without trying to understand exactly what someone is trying to say. Back to the prejudism thread, everyone was arguing about why oppression occurs and why racism is still prevalent today. I attribute it to the power structure that is inherent in America. Do I blame that power structure if I get a run in my pantyhose or flunk a pop-quiz? No. But I would blame it if I was rejected from a sorority because my skin was a few shades darker.

No, I was not at Alabama nor do I know M. Twilley, so she could, in fact, be a girl with a bad rep. However, I would challenge anyone, especially you, bama_alumna, to say that that same description could not apply to even one girl in your own chapter.

Despite my name, I have been registered on GC since Nov., of 2001 and have been an avid reader of GC for more than a year now. I have not read that thread and I do not share the opinion that blacks cannot be racist. However, don't you think its a little rash to call someone else racist based on their conversations, oh excuse me their post on an internet site. Even if you did feel this way, sharing it only brought more confusion.

Respectfully,


BEE

mmm...girls with bad reps...mmm

-Rudey