Agreed. But no one is really claiming a monopoly...who would want to? lol

My point is that knowing your history is the key to eradicating the pain of the past. And while I do not condone using it as a crutch, I DO condone using it as a stepping stone.

Really what's the point of getting reparations when you know that you didn't earn them, but rather received them as a "handout"? Doesn't that just further degrade? Besides, as a point to the whole slavery thing....they were brought here because they were sold off by their own people. It's not like a bunch of white English and Dutch people invaded villages on the Western coast of Africa and rounded up a few thousand. No! In fact, the more powerful tribal lords would capture whole villages and march them to the coast where they would be sold for money or some means of barter to white slavers.
And besides, right now look at the plight of all the people in Africa. Ebola, AIDS, poverty, hunger, female genital mutilation, rampant war, lack of health care, abnormally short life span, etc. I know things were bad here, but somehow I think today's African American's have it a hell of a lot better than their African counterparts. And things were done to all groups that came in that weren't WASPs, such as Germans, Jews, Irish Catholics, Arabs, Italians, Russians, Japanese, etc. And not all white families owned slaves, so to expect all whites to pay for something that wasn't necessarily done by all whites is in fact, wrong and unfair. And isn't fairness what they're seeking?

In your post you understand that work was done. That is not questioned. However you question why someone other than the original slave owners should have to pay reparations. The reason is that it wasn't JUST them that benefited. To this day people are benefitting off that work. This wasn't a slave just doing enough work to provide benefits to one family...benefits that never left that family.

-Rudey

I agree with rudey, you have to look at the bigger picture. In that period a lot of the economy was agriculture like cotton, tobacco, rice, I think soy too, amongst other crops. The government sold these crops to other countries. Slaves worked the land by picking cotton and doing other tasks. So thanks to the slaves the slaveowners profited from their labor. The beginning of the economy somewhat depended on slaves. How many slaveowners were out there picking cotton? Not many. I may be wrong here but I dont think many slaves were compensated for their labor.

True, many non wasps were treated differently but, I think you really cannnot compare how these people were treated to how slaves were treated. The only people that were imprisoned against their will were the Japanese during World War II. I believe that they were treated humanely, they were'nt beat with whips, raped or any sort of thing like that. I think most african-americans want to right the wrongs from the past. This doesnt mean with a check to every african-american. It could be with a museum to honor our unique heritage. For example the Smithsonian is building a Museum dedicated to Native American History on the National Mall, it would be cool to have something like that for African-American History, because we have contributed so much to this country.

Cool Fact: Benjamin Banneker a black male finished the very incomplete plans of Wash DC after Pierre Charles L'enfant left. I believe L'enfant quit because he wasnt paid enough. Someone correct me if Im wrong.

PM_Mama

WORD

xoxo
chantillylace

Well I'll step up and say I don't agree with you guys. The situation of any minority, whether it be black or Jewish is fundamentally and completely different. There is no comparison and I don't have the time to really discuss it.

I have to catch a flight in the morning again to consult with another of my firm's clients, so I think this will be my last post for about a week.

-Rudey
--Someone please shoot me...I can't keep working over 70 hours every week.

The "Ten Points" referred to at the beginning of the thread; is that real or is it a parody of something that was written at an earlier time?

If it is the latter, can someone please tell me where I can find the points on which the parody is based?

I think the subject is very interesting but, of course, it's hard for me to form an opinion on the Ten Points because I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take them seriously or not.

Thanks!

Lord have mercy.
And to think that somebody who's allegedly becoming EDUCATED posted this. I'm not just speaking of the sentiments, I'm speaking of the poor grammar. Presentation does matter.

On a serious tip, what a piece of ugly, hateful garbage this post is.

I really didn't want to respond to this, because I pride myself on my sense of decorum and refinement, and I also dislike how many people who post on here take topics off in ridiculous tangents.

But this couldn't go unchecked. And frankly, I'm pleased that I read this because ignorance should be exposed.

:) Didn't think you would pick this up. I was wondering when someone would actually bring this up but nobody has yet.

David Horowitz plastered ads in university newspapers around the country on this. Everyone considers him full of hot air though. His ideas do hold a LOT of validity but the guy is out to make money and gain fame and it took people a while for people to understand that. Sadly he presents his ideas in a way to provoke a reaction and dismisses all opposing sides swiftly.

After the ads, before kids realized what he was really about, lots of campus fired up about this with Berkeley being at the head I believe. Several other campuses did not publish the ad and an issue of free speech and censorship arose from it.

He actually spoke at my school and kids saw where his argument was coming from, but he was really harsh. This guy is mean when it comes to someone asking him something that he thinks goes against what he believes. Once again, it's all a part of his desire for wealth and fame and nothing more.

http://www.adversity.net/reparations...rations_ad.htm

-Rudey
--In the end, the anti-globalist pro-rally white kids who don't wash their hair went home and all discussion of reparations was left for the black audience.

Oh, okay. I think I understand the whole thing now.

Rudy, you're saying that the "Ten Points" was written as a counter-argument to Horowitz's ads? If that is the case, I am extremely disappointed in the author of "Ten Points".

He had the opportunity to rebut Horowitz's claims in a rational, deliberate manner but he chose instead to compose what I can only term a diatribe. If the author is indeed in favor or reparations, why did he choose to send the argument into the realm of Theatre of the Absurd (I KNEW I could find a use for that dang English degree!)?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The following was added after my original post....

I just thought of something. Were the Ten Points written in an ironic vein? Like perhaps the author is actually against reparations and so is trying to undermine the pro-reparations cause by publishing that?

Okay, I'm off to bed now! Goodnight, GreekChat! Go to sleep, Rudey!

The truth hurts doesn't it?

I would guess that it was, but I'm not sure simply because these 10 point arguments are used every now and then. All I know is that there is a lot of hot air in all these people - from the supporters to the opposers. Everyone piggybacks the situation for their own personal benefit. Horowitz is almost forgotten, and I could say the same about the new Black Panthers in a sense. How about the white kids that all of a sudden became pro-reparations but went away just as quickly as they appeared? All forgotten.

-Rudey
--Ha ha I liked the last line. I'm out for a week. Take care everyone and play nice ;)

Whoops, one more thing...
 

I can't remember who brought up Jews not demanding restitution for what they suffered at the hands of the Nazis, but I copied this from a book review site and thought it might be of some interest...


Paying for the Past: The Struggle over Reparations for Surviving Victims of the Nazi Terror

Authors: Christian Pross, Belinda Cooper and Erich H. Loewy

Publisher: John Hopkins University Press, 276 pages, May 1998

Pross untangles the complicated history of reparations in West Germany, from the American military government’s 1947 law Number 59 (Restitution of Property Stolen in the Course of the "Aryanization of the Economy") to West Germany’s Federal Restitution law of 1957, and into the 1970’s.

Ok, NOW I'm REALLY off to bed! :)

Re: Whoops, one more thing...
 

OK I promise I'm sleeping after I write this. The Jewish situation is not comparable. The two main reasons are because that was not a situation that occured on American soil (although the turning back of Jews who would otherwise die and did die can be comparable) and also, mainly, because of the law applied. This was not simply a restitution for forced labor (or compensation for the precise desire to drive to extinction a large group of people) but also a restitution for stolen property and money.

Several countries and groups after the war have applied this law. The fact is that Jewish money is still in the hands of many Europeans also. The neutral Swiss certainly believe in being a part of the bandits of Europe.

-Rudey
--I promise i'm closing my window now, but please remember that this is not an issue where we compare different minorities. Play nice, for I will return soon.

I surely don't take it personally, because I don't know you personally. Again, for the most part, I come here for amusement. I'm 16 years out of college and already have my piece of paper called a degree. I'm an educated, working, tax-paying person, not some creature that deals drugs and collects food stamps.
BTW, I'm a PRODUCTIVE member of GC who comes on here to meet my sorors and interact with others, not stir up the dung-laden pot.

As for the BGLO/GLO thread, if you had done a SEARCH, you would have found the information that you needed. I've been on GC long enough -- I lurked three months before registering -- to realize that these discussions often deteriorate into utterly retromingent diatribes.

PM_Mama and Chantillylace..... WHY??http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...fragend016.gif

Gosh I don't know where to begin with this raving http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/sauer/sauer055.gifpost.(and also to the person that agreed with it). Except that just because YOU haven't heard other minorities "bitching" about how they are treated does not mean that it does not go on.

On a sidenote:
My oh my! I understand that we all can say things in "the heat of the moment", but seriously this seems to be happening just to easily and frequently with you. Not a good thing.

On another note, Honeykiss, where did you get that quote from?
I heard it the other day and I can't figure out where, and it's driving me insane.

Yes, there were Africans who participated in the slave trade, a fact that is often minimized by pro-reparationists. Many African tribes had slaves from the rival tribes And of course it was not only America that had slaves -- most countries in Europe, the Carribean islands and (I think) even southwest Asian countries had slaves or at least participated in their slave trading in other countries. Still, that doesn't make it OKAY in any way.

Furthermore, many of the problems in Africa can be (directly or indirectly) attributed to the fact that the strongest and healthiest Africans were removed from the country and sent into slavery. I think it would be very interesting to see how Africa would have turned out if slavery had never existed. It would be a whole lot different, I'm sure. Not only would Africa be a lot stronger, but America would be a lot weaker.

As I said before, I think the argument for reparations (at least in their current form, i.e. direct compensation to all African-Americans by all non-African-Americans) is ridiculous -- but there is no way that you can argue that this country doesn't owe quite a bit of its reputation as "the world's only superpower" to the fact that we once had a legal slave trade.

Thanks Damasa...

I got this quote from a discussion on the SGR board. Someone posted it as part of their response, so I kind of "borrowed it".:D

Have you all gone mad!!??? This is getting way out of hand. End this now!!!! There is no point wasting your time on this subject. The controversial subject of reparations has been blasted, thought over and criticized for years now. Will it ever happen? Only time will tell, till then, lets please move on.

Just a little interjection...

A Portland Oregon based Talk Radio station is collecting dirt (yes, dirt) to send with a mule to this guy. They are attempting to get 1 acre by 1/4 inch deep worth of dirt.

Yawn. My suggestion is to go hit your books, and don't quote In Living Color with the snaps because after all, it was a creation of people who bug you.

BTW, I love big words. I've used big words all my life.
I like a good debate, but with people who are receptive to other ideas. And you don't seem to be, judging from your posts.
I'm too busy living to deal with pathetic cases.

What does you being called a F___ W____ B_____ have to do with idea of being that person being better or "more equaal" :confused: than you? You still can't seem to realize that maybe.....
just maybe....
you just pissed someone off and that was it???

Oh Lawd, I am truly in amazement at some of things that just keeping coming this chile!:eek:

That makes 2 of us!

PM_Mama, do you really think that all of this is as simple as blaming white people for everything?? Sigh.

You seem to group EVERY complaint that you hear from a Black person under one category: Just another black person blaming whitey. Sorry, but not everyone IS blaming white people for everything. However, it is TRUE that the plight of Black people today is due to:

systematic

and

institutionalized

racism

and it is the direct result of hundreds of years of oppression (which, indeed, continues today).

I am glad you have said outright that you are prejudiced, you have been in denial for a little while now.

Jews and Blacks cannot be compared, nor can any other minority's past/present/future...and despite your rebuttal, comparing them is absolutely what you did.

PM_Mama, I cannot fathom how you can call yoursef "open-minded" and in the same breath say you are prejudiced. Does that make sense to anyone??

And yes, I too am tired of the whiners. I am very weary of those paranoid people who believe that everything is a conspiracy against Blacks. Not EVERYTHING is. But when it comes to the present ramifications of slavery, I am sorry, but that cannot be denied or refuted. And if it tires you to hear about it, that's fine. STOP PERPETUATING IT. Then maybe you won't have to hear it so much.

And you wonder why....Sometimes I wonder how white people would function if they just happened to be born black or any other non-white ethnicity. So I'm guessing you are going to teach your children the same prejudice and racism that you have...

Anyone that wants 40 acres and a mule is just looking for a free ride.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post. You took the words/thoughts right out of my mouth.

While it saddens me that a supposedly educated, upwardly mobile young woman (PM_Mama) would spout such nonsensical garbage, I am also grateful for her honesty. It keeps me on my toes, reminds me to never get too comfortable and reinforces that bigotry and intolerance are still alive and kicking in 2002, even among my peers. It brings to mind the saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". PM_Mama, you have really shown your true colors in this and in other threads, but at least you have the balls to do it. So, keep telling us how you really feel. And thank you for distancing yourself from Phi Mu. That way you're only embarrassing yourself and not your entire organization.

Well, PM_Mama - - you're prejudism ought to really start trippin' out when I tell you this....I'm racially mixed..

Sicilian (25%), Spanish (Malaga) (25%) and BLACK (50%).

Got a problem with that? You think you're blood is hot...mine is straight up boiling over the bull crap that you've posted on this thread.

Decorum
 

Eirene, you're welcome. And I love your post.

As I've said, I usually am a model of decorum and dignity. My parents gave me those critical values.

But that individual's blatant ignorance and repeat pattern of degradation, not just on this thread, but on other threads, called for a response.

The shame of it all is that there were some intelligent posts on this issue, which really needs to be debated in a rational manner, not in an emotional one. In particular, I felt informed reading takes from librasoul22, KSigRC and Optimist Prime.

All I'm saying is that this should have degenerated into this.


-- ST

How did the government create ghettos?

It is known as the Broken Window Theory.

You know how if you have a brand new, flawless car, you tend to try to keep it as pristine as possible? Then if you get in a wreck, you kinda let the rest of it go?

Same with ghettos. One broken window and people stop caring about the property values. If you take a look at the businesses in the ghettos, they are not minority-owned. Neither are the properties.

Ghetto living conditions are deplorable and poverty and hunger are rampant. The government has little interest in rectifying this. Also, the very EARLY government made it impossible for minorites to have the same rights as their white counterparts, by ratifying laws in the constitution and encouraging segregation. Although today such things are not condoned, the ramifications are undeniable.

BTW, as for your 40 acres and a mule = wanting a free ride comment from earlier...I thought you were kidding, but maybe not. Were you?

No I wasn't kidding about the 40 acre and a mule comment. Anyone that wants 40 acres and a mule is looking for a free ride.

Why should the government fix broken windows that they didn't break? The individuals that broke the windows should fix them and if they dont fix them, then they deserve to live in a ghetto.

I am mystified as to why people expect any better from her.

Don't we already KNOW about this girl? WHY ARE PEOPLE SURPRISED? She just came out and admitted what we all already knew.

She definitely needs prayer Soror.

*Note: This is my first and last post on this thread. As I can not reach out through my computer and deliver well-deserved smacks upside the head, there just isn't anything more I can do, lol.