I am oppposed to the death penalty. However, thank God that no one that I know has been killed by a murderer because I don't know if I would feel the same way. Another thing, I don't think that jail cells should have any comforts other than a bed and they should share bathrooms, sinks, etc. Criminals should be made to do work that would help the individual state. No workout rooms, etc.

--And no, JustAMom my comments mean nothing. They are utterly worthless and carry no merit. In the end, what is the point of a "debate"?

You know Rudey, you are right. In fact, no comment on this board
or any other for that matter amounts to a hill of beans. In fact, why don't we just shut GC down and go visit our "real" neighbors and friends.

Lots of ways to communicate with people and like a lot have said on this thread, you can gain insight into other members and maybe even learn something. I know that is interesting to me and by the success of this site, I believe it is interesting to others.

This is just one topic of HUNDREDS where I agree with Shadokat and KillarneyRose more than valkyrie, you or others. There have been NUMEROUS topics where I couldn't agree MORE with valkyrie
or ThetaLove. It's called individuality.

A debate is one method of communication and when you look at the controversial threads, you can see people like to share their opinions with others. In most (but admittedly not all) cases I try to keep an open mind and if I'm lucky, gain some insight.

Purrr
 

Ma'am, I'm taken and I'd appreciate it if you stopped with the sexual comments. Thank you.

Anyway, how do you guys feel about executing persons with mental retardation? And also, how do you feel about executing children (below the age of 18)?

-Rudey

Rudey,

Being a biology major in college makes me a firm believer in DNA evidence. Sure, it can sometimes be tampered with, but it is the most conclusive way to prove someone guilty or not guilty. By extensive investigation, I mean one with plenty of hard evidence, not one with eyewitnesses or anything like that, because people are much more easily swayed than scientific evidence.

No, I do not believe in executing someone who is mentally handicapped. They are incapable of understanding the law. People under 18...that's a different story. I wouldn't go around saying we should execute kids, but I also think 18 is an arbitrary age. Who's to say that the day you turn 18, you're an adult? Is someone who's 17 that much different from someone who's 18 or 19? I think the punisment should depend on the case.

I only believe in the death penalty for very brutal, premeditated crimes (for example, mass murderers, serial killers or child killers). I don't think people capable of those crimes are capable of rehabilitation. In those cases, I do not think that tax-paying, law-abiding citizens should have to support these monsters by keeping them in jail. And yes, jail is about punishment. If you do something wrong, you should be punished. Otherwise, what's the point of the justice system? Ok, you killed someone, let's send you to therapy so that maybe you can return to the outside world and live your life even though you ruined other people's lives. I think that's ridiculous.

Keep your comments coming; anything that makes people think is definitely worthwhile.

~DW

"Sure it can sometimes be tampered with"

I'm sure you'd be willing to go to a trial where evidence can be tampered with. What does it matter...it's only your life right?

Also DNA technology was used to prove criminals (oh we all know OJ was) were not guilty. That means nothing to you that a rich man can destroy all DNA evidence while a poor man sits scared because a group of men want his brain cells ruptured to tell the world they caught the criminal and deserve their trust and votes at the next election for keeping them safe?

-Rudey
--Being a human makes me a firm believer that people are not perfect.

ANY evidence can be tampered with, so by that logic, why even bother having investigations and presenting evidence at a trial? It all comes down to who is believable to a jury and who is not. People may not be perfect, but they're all we have to rely on in the end.

Umm you're not following "that logic". I made a statement about a punishment that is full of holes and permanent...not the evidence presented at each and every trial in this country.

-Rudey

Ok.. I guess I can understand how some people say we probably wouldn't be any better than the "mean people" if we gave them the death penalty, However I think I have a capitalistic view on it. I am a hard working American citizen and I pay taxes that support all those prisons & stuff like that. I personally don't think it's fair that citizens have to pay their hard-earned money for these guys/gals who just sit on the bum in a cell somewhere. I say fry 'em as soon as possible.. I realize that costs money too, but it sure beats housing them & everything else for 40+ years. ?

Sad truth is that sometimes those people don't live in regret when they have done something that bad.. they just go with the motions until they get out on parole, or rot in jail. Think of the over-whelming capacity prisions will have if EVERYONE sits there for the rest of their lives? More and more prisions will have to be built to house them.

Wow...such a powerful comment you made. It's as if you have extensive experience dealing with inmates that you know they "just go with the motions".

And for your information, prisons provide the state and private enterprises a cheap labor force (i.e. the Prison Blues clothing company and many many more companies).

-Rudey

Well, my opinion on the use death penalty varies from case to case, HOWEVER I think they should be kept alive long enough to "examine their heads", in other words, for research. Many killers, especially serial killers, share similar histories
and backgrounds. For example, a history of setting fires, abusing animals, and bed-wetting (after age 10) is a "trinity" that are found in most killers.

Just FYI no i don't have "extensive experience in dealing with inmates", but it's human nature... some people feel remorse .. some don't.. maybe it's a psychological thing, or an emotional thing, but it's life. All people don't have the same personality, so while one person may later regret what he/she did to put themself in prison, another person may not.

And thanks for the info, but I am well aware that prisons do provide cheap labor, but really think of everything else they do there.. some prison imates may be eating better than other citizens in this country. Some prison imates get higher education as "rehabilitation" while some people can't even dream about going to college due to financial reasons and can't get assistance.

Human Nature
 

Where is this all coming from? I'd like to see exactly where it says that most inmates sit on their ass and don't feel remorse. The fact is that you and I are just in college; we don't know jack shit about life let alone human nature.

Also, rehabilitation such as getting your GED and getting "higher education" are apples and oranges. How many inmates do you know that get their college educations?? And generally it's the areas in this country where people can neither afford to eat three times a day nor pursue "higher education" that provide the most crime and murder...doesn't that mean anything to you?

And in the end there is that list I provided of men in this thread that have been released and many more are being released each year because they are found to be innocent while the charges brought against them were false.

Furthermore, if people are deserving of death, what do YOU people who support the death penalty feel YOU deserve if someone is executed in a program that YOU supported? How about the prosecutors that pushed for the death sentence? How about the judge and jury that handed that sentence down? They clearly did murder an innocent man. How about executions that are clearly infractions of human rights (such as executions commited until the recent Supreme Court decision on the mentally retarded or those of children which are not banned in several states)? Texas has sure had it's share of such executions that even China would not perform (China does not execute children).

I guess for me the debate is truly solved in my first two posts to JustAMom. Perhaps they will clarify my position even more.

-Rudey
--Just another case of a powerful administrative constituency

Three words: Chill out Rudey
:rollseyes:

not everyone is innocent. some people actually do commit crimes... women/children disappearing doesn't happen just out of no where. and sorry all those people in your list were innocent, but that was all from a failed investigation. it was up to them [police/investigation team] to get the evidence and the facts straight before they try to prosecute someone.

The only time I think that Death is appropriate is if the offender is a danger to others while imprisoned. Otherwise the process is far to expensive.

Justice is not about revenge.

I really don't want to get involved in this discussion any more because I don't think it's all that constructive at this point, but is it really necessary for you to do a :rolleyes: and tell Rudey to chill out just because you disagree with him?

I have a question for you: what exactly is your experience with the criminal justice system in this country? You're saying that it's up to the defendants to get the evidence and facts straight? How exactly do you propose that they do that? What resources does an innocent man in prison with no money have, exactly, to "get the evidence and the facts straight?" How is he supposed to do this when he has been beaten by police, threatened, and when the prosecution has destroyed or mishandled the evidence, or threatened witnesses, or made inappropriate comments to a jury? How is he supposed to get the evidence when it is in the custody of the state, the very people who may be destroying it in an effort to falsely convict him of a crime?

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I do. My point is just that there are serious problems in the American justice system, and the odds are so stacked against poor defendants that they often are almost powerless to do things that you would think they would be able to do, like get evidence and facts.

Um, it's also wrong to lock someone up in a cell in your house, but the government does that right?

Also, everyone's talking about the increase in abductions. There is an article on abcnews.com, which of course I can't find now... anyway, it said that there actually isn't an increase in this crime, simply an increase in publicity for them.

Finally, I'm not really sure how I feel about the death penalty. Part of me is for it, like many, especially for premeditated cold-blooded killings. For those that feel "an eye for an eye" is appropriate, then why should rapists be put to death? I think this line from JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is fairly fitting That is why I don't know that I necessarily agree with the death penalty. If I can't give life, why should I be able to dole out death?

Are you kidding me? While you're rolling your eyes, maybe you'll come up with something better to say...something more profound.

-Rudey
--I don't speak with the tact of Valkyrie...but then again, I also never presented a ridiculous idea that the accused should be responsible for getting their own facts straight.

I love to watch Law & Order. The attorneys always seem to be using the death penalty as a way to get the criminals to rat out their partners or to plead to murder with life w/o parol instead of going to trial. The old "if you tell us what happen we'll take the death penalty off the table". I wonder if this happens in real life. If it does, then let's keep that ability around for a while.

Also, I would love to see if life w/o parol is really true. If life w/o parol was REALLY true, then I would be against the death penalty because there would be a better alternative. But it seems that the news is always showing old men who get out of prison after 30 or 40 years when they are in their 60s/70s, because of reasons like good behavior and overcrowing.

In principle I'm against the death penalty. I believe that capital punishment is God's perogative and not mine, and that redemption is possible.

However, that being said--a huge part of me also believes that some people DO commit crimes so henious they have in fact choosen to forfeit their life by their deeds.

I know this is contradictory, its the head vs. the heart. I once met Sister Prejean who wrote "Dead Man Walking" and she is very convincing in her beliefs. Its a tough call, either way. But I also know, that if a daughter of mine were to be brutally raped or murdered like the women in Baton Rouge, I would be first in line to stick the lethal injection in his arm.

my bad
 

ok just for clarification, in my last post i meant it was up to the police/investigation people to get the facts right in the cases that are prosecuting innocent people..:confused:

sorry if i'm pissing anyone off, but really.. in the original post they asked for an opinion on the death penalty.... i stated my opinion and why and all of a sudden some ppl are getting rowdy. maybe i should just reply with a simple 'yes' or no' next time :confused: this is all about opinions... some people are for it.. some people are against it... if someone has a different opinion than mine i don't have a problem with it... i think diversity in opinion is what makes the world so great.

I am for the death penalty because not using the punishment exceeds the harm of using the death penalty, also the death penalty increases deterrence.

Using the death penalty prevents 100% likelyhood of the suspect committing crimes in the future. People (well most) naturally fear death and if death is the punishment for committing violent crimes, people will think twice before doing so.

I, myself am personally against the death penalty.

First off, I am glad that Canada does not have the death penalty (except for extreme cases - ie. war). I believe that if civilized society believes that killing is wrong, then they should not violate that tenet with a state/society sanctioned killing. Having someone rotting away in prison for the rest of their natural life without the possibilty of porale seems to be the ideal punishment. Also mistakes happen, we have seen this happen up here; for example a man was convicted of kidnapping, raping, and killing his 8 year neighboor.... 13 years later evidence turns up proving him innocent. Even one mistake is too much for me.

Now before everyone jumps to the conclusion that I am a left-wing, tree-hugging hippie; let me state that I am a conservative and proud supporter of the Monarchy. I also served in the Canadian Armed Forces. I have seen people that I believed had no right to a contuinued existence; rapist, murders, and all matter of human filth. When civilized society breaks down, as it does on any frontline, there is no longer any society to enforce its morals, ethics, and laws. In cases like this a death penalty becomes a viable recourse.... however it is also open to abuse.

When serving with the UN I had the misfortune of witnessing acts of barbarity and cruelty that haunt me still. While I take comfort in the fact that through my actions there are seven peices of shit that will never harm anyone again; I am not proud of that fact.

Actually studies have shown that the death penalty does NOT increase deterrence.

The death penalty is not only differentially applied (which is MY major issue), it also costs YOU the taxpayer A LOT of money.

The United States has the highest crime rate in the world. Does the death penalty really deter anything?

I hate having the high crime rate. I don't like Pat Buchanon's politics, but I saw an interview with him and he had one really good idea. We should switch to a parlimentary system.

cite. (you're welcome)

I figured I would head off the firestorm this was invariably going to cause:

% of Executed who were black:
57% (executed)

% of Death Row Inmates who are black:
43% (same cite as above)

% of all (single-offender) violent crimes committed by blacks:
24.1% (requires Acrobat Reader)
(statistics for year 2000)

% of US population reported as "African-American":
12.9%
(year 2000 census)

---

OK - so there's still some comparative flaws in this breakdown, but you can start to see a disparity forming . . .

And that's w/out even including my opinion in the matter - these are just the cold, hard numbers.

KSig RC...my hero! :D

I won't change my mind until there is an alternative that can 100 percent,
absolutely,
no matter what,
completely foolproof,
impossible to foil,
not a chance in he**,
no way no how,
guarantee that the criminal will never walk free again.

Then I'd be glad to talk.

And no, life in prison without the possibility of parole because there is always the possibility, however remote, of escape.

What if you got the wrong guy and the criminal is still out there? I don't think you've got a method that provides you with that much needed assurance.

-Rudey
--It's a war zone out there.

Yes, but how often does this happen?

How often does a capital offender escape prison when sentenced to Life w/out Parole?

Please read the previous posts in the thread. I actually posted a large list of names.

-Rudey
--Bliss

LOL @ Rudey.

It happens far more often that you might imagine.

Question...would you like to be on the jury that sentences someone to death (assuming that it is not the judge's call)?

Also to the people who favor the death penalty. What if it was your mother/father/close relative or friend that was getting the sentence? Would you still feel the same way? BE HONEST.

It doesn't hit close to home for most of you, but if you give honest consideration to some often overlooked things, you might see this differently.

1 in 1,000,000? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10? Those who are punished that are guilty still exceeds those who are punished that are innocent.

Damn girl, why must you go there? LOL
I was speaking from a objective POV. Yes I must say, if family member or friend is getting the sentence, I would say nay for death penalty.

If I was on a jury, it would depend on the severity of the crime.

Even if it is one person out of them all, that is too many.

Let's say 100 people perform some particular capital crime. By your logic here, you are claiming it a success if 60 of these people are properly caught and put to death, even if the other 40 crimes result in the wrong person being arrested and put to death, as put here . . . now, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all, does it?

Aiii, what if the one innocent person being executed is your family member? Is you?

Not cool. What if a convicted person kills you or a loved one, because he wasn't put to death?

The area I'm from, we have an average of one or two prisoners escaping per month. Last May FOUR escaped within one week.

cite?

Were they capital criminals? How many deaths resulted as a part of these escapes? Would they have been put to death already, or would they still be bogged down in appeal? Do you have any statistics for how often this happens, or was it a statistical freak event?

And most importantly . . . why the fuck do you still live there?