The Dilemma
 

Here is the real issue no matter how you feel about abortion:

In this society we place a great emphisis on women's rights(as we should) Yet in situations we hold men to a double standard. We state a man should be a father, support his women in all decisions but be passive in situations as she dictates (ie abortion). The reality of the situation is a court will favor a mother in tough calls most of the time.

We seem to measure fathers by the amount of money that comes out of thier pockets to the kids and signifigant others when in reality a man SHOULD have as much at stake with a child as a woman does.

In this society we look down upon men who do not work or are stay home dads. Yet we do not look as harshly upon women with these issues.

Old saying "BE A MAN, GET A JOB"

I will say this gives men the feeling that they are only good for the cash and giving th other 1/2 of the Gene!

Guys, I SEE YOUR POINTS! I REALLY, REALLY DO! However, all of these points do not ring true for everyone.

I do not look down on a man that does not work, as long as he has a valid reason for not doing (as I would say of a woman). I know that being a stay-at-home dad is a hard job because being a mom is. I alos know that there are some women who just don't like to stay home. Hell, if I had a banging career and I took care of the first child (or even if this was the first), and my money could support us, I would be MORE than happy to work. That's what marriage, family, and partnership is all about.

As for other issues, men are not in bad standing and do not take the backburner in situations. The problem is that instead of speaking about it, be about it. Do you think that women got these rights by typing on forums all day? HELL NO! They got out there and marched, petition, burned bras, etc. to get where they are. Men complain about not having rights, but they aren't doing anything to change it. Someone has to set the example. You have to go within the system to change it. You have to do things to get results.

Most of us in here agree that once an egg is fertilized, it's a baby. From a legal standpoint (and some people's personal standpoints), an embryo, fetus, etc. is not a baby until it is delivered. That said, it is just a mass of cells within that woman body that she has the right to have removed if she wants to. You all have to understand that. You may not like it, but it's the way it is. If you don't like it, do something to change it.

Men are complaining about a system that they are partly the fault of getting into place. Back in the day (and even today), men claimed that women are good for nothing cooking, cleaning, sex, and birthing babies. They didn't like that so they got out to change it and fought for the respect they felt they deserved. Now, men are starting to feel powerless and feeling like control is shifting. Well, you either lie in the bed that you made, or go out and buy a new one. (meaning: accept the way things are or go out and change them)

Yes
 

My boyfriend and I have these type of indepth conversations to see where one another stand and to make sure that our minds are on common ground. From our point of view the baby is just as much his as it would be mine. So IF (not happening) I wanted to have an abortion he would take the child and raise the child as his own.

Re: Yes
 

That last sentence... that is what I would want for myself.

On a serious note... it is good to hear that you and your man talk about these issues because my experience has been that a lot of couples don't until it's too late. That's why I always like my momma's rule... talk before you touch.

Talk First
 

That's an excellent rule, lucky for me I've been blessed even though I touched before I talked the hearts between me and him already knew each other like fate.

Re: Re: Abortion and Mens Rights
 

???? If we have RESPONSIBILITIES BEFORE and AFTER the baby is born, shoud we not have RIGHTS BEFORE and AFTER as well?

Re: The Dilemma
 

This, and ALL societies have double standards for both men and women depending on the situation. On this particular subject, the parental rights of the mother trumps those of the father (in utero) because after the sperm has been deposited, he has a free ride to skip town and the mother is left holding the bag until the baby is born.

With this in mind (BIOLOGICALLY (as the men in the room conveniently forget) as well as socially, the courts have decided that as long as SHE cannot "walk" away from that thing in her belly when times get tough, then she SHOULD be allowed an out before the baby is born in the same way that the man is free.

After the child is born BOTH parents are EQUALLY responsible for its heallth and welfare. If the mother choses to walk out and leave Junior with daddy she is as responsible for it as a Dead-beat dad would be.

So, as I have stated time and time again, if a man can find a way to make the fetus or embryo or zygote as BIOLOGICALLY dependant on his presence while it is in the womb, as it is on the mother, then no one can deny him his rights.

This isn't an Amercian society issue, or one the courts can really decide equally. Not becuase fathers do not matter, but because mothers are incapable of separating themselves from a pregnancy as easily as a man can. If you do not like biology, then, oh well.

Re: Re: The Dilemma
 

In reality if men and women worked together more and we taught at an early age the importance of pregnancy and responsiblity to our children then men would not bounce town and I bet that a lot of abortions would go out the window. Men have a blame in this envoirment. Biologically speaking even though the woman deposits the sperm half of that ------(Fill in the blank to whatever you believe) is a mans. Are we saying for example women that have artificial insemination(sp) and carry the GEne of another man and woman in thier womb have the right to claim the child as thier own? Just asking the question not trying to generate drama.

Sphinxpoet

Re: Re: Re: The Dilemma
 

If you mean that if a woman goes to a "sperm bank" and makes a "withdrawal," yes, the baby is hers. Those "deposits " are usually anonymous, so there is no way of knowing who the father is. If that man wants rights, then he needs not leave random sperm samples around town.

Now, if you mean the case of a woman being a surrogate parent, no, she has no right to claim that child as her own. However, that is a whole different scenerio. These women usually act as a "host womb" for parents that cannot carry a child. It is strictly voluntary. They are usually paid for their services.

Overt Feminists...?
 

To all who may listen, I ask that you lend your ears (figuratively). I am a man and I feel that I could do just as good of a job raising my children as my wife or any woman for that matter. I feel that a man OR a woman should know with whom they are making their "conjugal visits" so that they will not have to be presented with this dilemma if they are not willing to harbor responsibility. However, I have a 1st cousin who has children who are the age of 26, 23, and 18. When the 18 year old was 1, the mother of the children got killed in a car accident. My cousin immediately assumed all of the parental responsibilities, even though he was accustomed to sharing the duties 50/50 with his wife. To make a long story short, all of his children have gone to college and have not had any type of infractions with the law. Have we not learned anything from the 9 - 11 fathers and widowers. Women always state the fact that they can do any job as good as a man if they are given the opportunity. This same fact also holds true in the counterposition.

Abortion and Mens Rights
 

My response was and (still is), After the baby is born, then the bio-father has rights. Not before.

Re: Abortion and Mens Rights
 

My short answer is, ABSOLUTELY!! Men should have rights. I doubt they ever will... as always there are qualifications.

As a woman raised by both my parents, and having seen the pain that my older brother went through when his mother did NOT allow him to see my father for far too long, I definitely believe that if a man wants a child, loves that child, is willing to be full time parent to that child with no other questions asked, then he should have the right to do so. If I were ever (Lord forbid) faced with the decision of wanting to abort a child and the child's father did not want me to, that would seriously weigh in my decision. I might just have the child, let the father raise it. (This would not happen in MY life... that's just the way I feel about that particular theoretical situation.)

BUT, pregnancy is no joke, mentally or physically. That's a healthy pregnancy. Let's not even talk about complications, impact on a career, impact on personal relationships, medical care... If a woman, by that same token, does not want a child, does not love the child, is not willing to be the full time parent AND is not willing to subject herself to the substantial strains and stress of 9 months of pregnancy, she should not have to. And since the baby relies on her body to give it life, its up to the man who wants that right to convince her.... outside the courts. Because legally, I doubt any man will ever have right of decision over a child before it is born, (though I believe in a respectful relationship he should). The impact and the responsibility is just too much in the realm of the mother until birth, and potentially after.

that's my $.02.