I was born and raised agnostic (which means I neither purport or refute the existance of God) and I find it very bothersome that a greek organization would require a member to believe in god. Believing in a higher power doesn't make you a better sister or brother than someone who chooses not to believe. I feel there is something inherently judgmental and unfair in using belief in god as a requirement for membership. How do you even broach such a subject? Do you run around rush parties asking people what their religious convictions are? My mother always taught me it was rude to put people on the spot that you don't know and ask them their religion.
What happens if you extend a bid to a rushee, not knowing their status, and then find out that their a nonbeliever?
Race, religion, Ethnicity have nothing to do with what makes a good member. There are many wonderful nonbelievers who serve their greek organization every day. To refuse members on that basis is ignorant and prejudiced!

No. A buddhist still believes in a higher, divine being...take this quote from http://wahiduddin.net/views/buddhi.htm
"...the idea that we must prepare ourselves to be capable of manifesting the Divine Presence, is the very foundation of Buddhism"

All Kappa Sigma asks is that you believe in a higher presence then us, a divine being. Who or what this is, and how you practice this belief, is completely up to you. However, you MUST have this belief. We do not run around asking religous beliefs, however, we do make it clear you must believe in a higher being...we do not question you once you say you have this belief. If we extend a bid to a rushee and find out they are a nonbeliever, we will relieve this person of their pledgeship, and allow them to find another fraternity where they will feel more at home. A non-believer will not feel comfortable in Kappa Sigma, plain and simple.

The Ritual of Kappa Sigma is a system of values. It is a standard by which we measure ourselves, a means of self-evaluation. It serves as a guide for our relationships between brothers, between our fellow man and with God.
The requirement that you profess a belief in a Supreme Being is not an attempt to change your religous beliefs. However, as Kappa Sigmas, we all must share in the belief that as human beings, we are responsible to a higher authority than ourselves.

As our founders had set down in the written bond of their union: The object of this Fraternity is to enjoy and increase the pleasures which are only to be obtained by the intercourse of congenial spirits

I am sorry you feel Kappa Sigma's position is ignorant and prejudiced, however, a non-believer will not feel comfortable in Kappa Sigma, just as a non-believer will not feel comfortable being a FreeMason.

Okay, docetboy, here's another question. Does it have to be one higher being, or would a beleiver in a polytheistic religion feel comfortable? Would that be acceptable?

I might add that I find this subject fascinating, too.

docetboy,

how do you screen pnms for such belief? do you ask them before signing them, or do you find out during pledging. Is it made clear to all pnms that this is a requirement for membership during rush?

I'm not accusing or judging, I'm actually just curious.

"As Kappa Sigmas, we all must share in the belief that as human beings, we are responsible to a higher authority than ourselves."

This is all we ask...we do not care how you believe in a higher authority, whether it has mulitiple forms, believes itself to be the only one, eats chicken every night, as long as you follow the above quote from Bononia Docet, our pledge manual.

If the subject is brought up, we make our position clear during rush, just like I am doing with you right now....before I pledged, I asked if there would be any problems being Jewish and in the fraternity, as I had a sincere worry/question/whatever and I was explained what I am explaining now. During pledging, this requirement is made clear and we make sure each pledge understands, without questioning or prolonging the subject.

To me, that seems vague (now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, so please don't take it that way). Anything could be a higher authority, really. I think that you could be an atheist and still believe in a higher authority. To me, the term "higher authority" does not equal god. The earth or nature could be considered a higher authority. Or the stock market. Or your mother. I'm not trying to be funny -- I just think that could mean anything.

Edited to add: BTW, I'm Buddhist and I do not believe in a higher, divine being. :)

Before initiation, you must profess belief in a "Supreme Being," hence, the quote above. Does that make it a little more clear?

This is our position...there are a thousand what-ifs, and that's fine...however, Kappa Sigma's position has been relayed and I've tried to explain it as best as I can...

I find that a little harsh as a reply. It is very obvious what she meant in her question. I dont want to point fingers but she never asked anything beyond what she should know. If she had said "Tell me what I have to do." I can understand but she simply asked about the prayers part.

Now, I think sometimes the term "ritual" scares people. Non-Christians take it as a "churchy" thing (I have even heard rituals somewhat compared to communion.) yet christians seem to take the term "ritual" as an occult term.

My advice, Ask the prospective GLO's members and make sure you let them know that you just want the facts before you make a decision. Quite frankly, we (my chapter especially) love to tell as much as is allowed and we are always willing to help a PNM make a confident choice.

Good Luck,
*mlk

AWESOME post. :cool:

I can't say too much, obviously, but SAI does reference the Greek Bible (New Testament) in ritual and in our Symphony, which can be a bit out of the blue for a non-Christian. And really, the usage can be heavy at times. Unfortunately, this aspect of our sisterhood was never made clear in my chapter, and it was only revealed at a point where most sisters said they felt unable to drop, that they were too devoted to leave over it. We come from a private Lutheran university. No-one thinks to stop and ask if someone is a non-Christian.

I understand that religious texts are quoted because of their meaning to the founders and to the populace at large. But at the same time, they can be alienating to members who do not affirm the meaning and validity of the Greek Bible. It is a hard place for many organisations, I'm sure, and a tough position out of which to navigate without being overly PC but not being insensitive to issues of cultural diversity in the 21st century. Would I be happier if the Greek Bible references were removed from ritual? I can't say right now. They have meaning now for me as a sister, but as a pledge they were jarring and only reminded me of things with which I was dealing at the time that were unconnected to the sorority.

I think religion has its place. I'm not entirely sold that it is within the formalised rites and rituals of SAI.

I'm not supposed to tell you anything that might give away our secret ritual or anything, but to be general and answer your question, a reference is made in some way, but I know non-Christians whom have not been bothered by it or felt like anything is forced upon them. I think you should be alright.

Re: Chirstianity in rituals
 

Please stop spamming the boards Rev. Hatchett

It wouldn't be remiss in saying as it already has that many GLOs rituals base their rituals on christian beliefs. Granted, I bet they are all non denominational beliefs as someone else said earlier.

Coming from a Masonic family and ,very few greeks in my family, the Masons were the first fraternity showing their christian beliefs. My dad, granddads and uncles are all masons and someof them are in GLOS. I myself being a PHQ, MM from Job's Daughters as well as a member of Eastern Star can tell you it is like a sorority and we have ritual but there again it is based in the most middle fo the road themes. We don't focus on any one religion.

Laura

Re: Chirstianity in rituals
 

Prove it.

Re: Re: Chirstianity in rituals
 

Direct from Fred's website:

I Peter 2:22- "Jesus would have never joined a GLO, because He never knew sin, or comitted sin."

Somehow it doesn't read that way in my Bible.

Hey Reverand/iconoclastic:

Thank you for your post. Your post about there being no christian principles in GLO's made me very happy, being a Jew, who you believe will go to Hell for not believing in Jesus' salvation...

Shucks. oh well.

Ah but didn't Jesus eat and have gatherings with sinners and prostitutes while the "reliogious" people of the day wouldn't have anything to do with those people. Well i know i am not in my Fraternity trying to rid my brothers of their sins but i am there as a friend who can advise them when they have spiritual questions.

"AMEN!" steelepike :D

LMAO Jesus would have never joined a GLO.

Could it be that iconoclastic was burned by a GLO and now has made it his supreme mission to down ALL of them?

I would like to know what you think about XA (chi alpha) and some of the other religious fellowships that use greek letters in their name. There is no ritual there but you said "Jesus would never join a GLO."

Also, I believe it is Sigma Nu whose creed almost DIRECTLY quotes the Bible. (....To walk in the way.....the truth....the light.....*BAD MISQUOTE BUT YOU GET IT*)

ALso I would like to point out that this post was not meant to
be a "witness festival" or revival so if the girl who started it was "born and raised" agnostic it doesn't matter what you or anyone else has to say. Just like I was raised Assembly of God. Sometimes, we need to realize that college and growing up in general is all a time to learn how to accept people regardless of his/her belief in God or any other power. I know my sisters would accept me no matter what I believe. Thats what sisterhood is all about and I promise (to the girl who started this thread) you will know when you find that group because they wont give a flip about where you came from.....they'll be more concerned about where they can help you go and who they can help you become.
*mlk

Could you clarify that? I don't quite understand what you mean.

Geeky Penguin...hey your not alone, my bible doesn't say that either;)

Steelpike, that is a great way to put things. Because Christ didn't just love the saved he loved EVERYONE, good or bad.
Luke 15:1-7

astroAPHI...why do you say that Christ wouldn't have joined a GLO?

Now my sorority is based on Christian principals, and we do use them in our rituals, however it is stated PLAINLY that your own personal views, opinions, beliefs will not be compramised. And many of us do go to church together but it will not be forced upon someone who doesn't want to go. GLO's aren't there to force something upon you that you would not agree with/believe in. I joined my sorority because it was based upon things I believe in. I specifically stayed away from 1 other on campus because I knew that the principals the group was founded upon went against my personal beliefs. So don't fret, you will find one that fits your personality and beliefs.:)

Sorry for the misunderstanding there jenigail... I was simply laughing at the statement, not stating it. I was just imagining those WWJD bracelets and imagining Iconoclastic standing up and yelling, "Jesus would never have joined a GLO!"

Re: Wondering how SigEp doesn't mandate it.

They have some sort of quote about how their fraternity was founded on love of God...I'm going to go find it:

"This fraternity will be different, it will be based on the love of God and the principle of peace through brotherhood. The number of members will be increased from the undergraduate classes. We will change the name to Sigma Phi Epsilon."

That, and the cross in their crest (which could just be heraldic, I know nothing about that) always made me wonder but I never asked, and I'm sure GPBoy wouldn't have told me.

astroAPHI, don't worry I wasn't upset or anything..i think what you just said was pretty good!:p

Pike is another exception to that study in asking questions like these prior to the ceremony as well as others. However, if one does answer negatively to the second question, an alternate is asked about proceeding given that Christian ideals are present in the initiation ceremony. It could follow then, that there are Pikes who are athiests.

Docetboy, I would check your ritual. Since Pike and Kappa Sig are similar in their questioning aspect, it wouldn't surprise me that the two agree in letting an individual that does not believe in a higher being proceed once agreeing that there are religious beliefs in the ceremony. But I could be wrong.

What if its a honorary org or service org

While I respect your concern that I may not be correct, I can assure you I have properly stated Kappa Sigma's position...I have even used direct quotes from our pledge manual, Bononia Docet. While we are similar in the questioning aspect, we are extremely different fraternities with extremely different histories and beliefs.

Just making sure.

Icommieclastic, if you are as smart as you seem to think your ego makes you, there will be No Glo who will give you information about their Rituals. That is members in good standing.

It seems that your over extended nose is so long, that if you have it up the rear ends of all of the GLOS that it seems, I am sure your nose would get broken if they turned right or left!

This site has nothing to do with you or your diatribes. Please begone and do not darken our door step again messanger of Satan!:p

A fool and his ideas, I do hope depart thusly soon.

What about Delta Upsilon? They don't have any secrets.

Though members of D.U. would not be disqualified under the above questions, our national constitution prohibits any member of a NIC or NPHC fraternity from becoming initiated, because of the same fairness issues.

That was at Fred, not you...because DU has no secrets, thus they can prove that they are not doing whatever bad things people think we do. I knew that about you guys. :)

Sorry...I was used to being questioned on every aspect of our initiation requirements in this thread just about...:)

I think it should be up to Kappa Sigma if they want to discriminate based on religion or not -- if that's a really important principle to the organization then they should be able to weed out nonbelievers just the way the rest of us try to weed out those who won't be committed to the principles of our organizations. The only problem I can see is having an atheist who goes through rush, likes the Kappa Sigs, accepts his bid, and doesn't learn until afterwards that he must believe in a God in order to be initiated -- so now he can't be initiated into Kappa Sig, but he has to wait to the next rush period before he can join another fraternity. Somehow that doesn't seem fair.

As stated above, Tri Delta was founded on Christian ideals, but we don't require you to be a Christian/believe in a God, and we don't ask you about your faith during the pledge process or initiation. As a non-Christian, I was a little surprised by some things that involved Christianity that I wasn't used to. For example, the first time I went over to the house for formal dinner, I was surprised when they sang grace before the meal. But I've never been made to feel uncomfortable in any situation because of my religion. Even though Tri Delta is founded with "Christian" ideals in mind, I don't think these ideals are anything that a non-Christian wouldn't also want to strive for. I think that that is the most important part for me -- that I agree with the principles. I know for a fact that there are both Jewish and agnostic girls in our house, and probably those of other faiths besides, and obviously none of them feel like they've had to compromise their beliefs enough to quit the sorority.

Of course, my chapter isn't a very religious one on the whole -- we don't do things like go to church together -- so I can imagine this might be a little bit different in a chapter where the religion plays a much bigger role in the social aspects of the chapter, you know?

Hopefully you didn't take my comments as questioning. I was trying to establish commonality (although not there) between Kappa Sig and Pike. If I've said something wrong, let me know.

I think this is something to consider with the local chapter...I know that I saw a website for a chapter of an NPC sorority that said something to the effect of they had all accepted Christ as their Savior. Now I don't think that's the stance of the national, but I would say in that particular chapter if you don't feel comfy in that sort of environment, don't go there.

We do have a "spiritual" aim but that means different things to different people.

Docetboy,

I was surprised to see you state with such unflinching authority that Kappa Sigma fraternity would immediately move to expel any member whose beliefs had changed from the time that they in good conscience took their oath. It’s unclear to me whether your statements about what the fraternity would do are purely your interpretation of Kappa Sigma doctrine (pledge manual, ritual, etc.) or whether the Kappa Sigma fraternity has issued some policy statement threatening expulsion or has already taken some action on this specific scenario.

Perhaps that’s also why other people here are asking you so many questions. There are many fraternities out there who absolutely require a belief in god (according to their pledge manuals and their rituals), but I have never heard of an initiated member later being expelled on the basis of nonbelief. So it’s hard for me (us?) to understand how you can put forth the kind of unilateral statements that you have.

No disrespect intended of course. Just seeking clarification. It’s an issue of great personal interest to me. And mind you, I’m not disputing that Kappa Sigma has this requirement – I’m just asking how you’re so sure what they would do from an enforcement standpoint.

Also, out of curiosity, on what do you base the assertion in your signature that Kappa Sigma’s European founding is in 1400 and that the group is 603 years old? What is the direct tie between Chrysoloras’ brotherhood at Bologna and the Kappa Sigma fraternity? As I understand it, Kappa Sigma based the fraternity on the earlier brotherhood, but does not claim to be a continuation of that long defunct group. Please correct me if I’m wrong, or please correct yourself if you are.

Fraternally,
wptw

While I do not know of any official statement made by our International Memorial Headquarters about this subject, it is the way it is clearly stated in all information I have recieved and the way it has been personally explained to me by members of my chapter and alumni volunteers and staff. So yes, I really don't know if we would immediately move to expel a member, but I would expect this if the subject ever comes up.

As you already know, Kappa Sigma was founded in 1400 in Bologna Italy, by Manuel Chrysaloras, a greek scholar, and his five full time disciples, as a society for mutual protection against the evil governor who preyed on out-of-town students. As our pledge manual states

In 1400, at the University of Bologna, Manuel Chrysoloras and his disciples formed a society for mutual protetion. Their work inspired the Ritual and beliefs of a modern-day Greek-letter Fraternity - Kappa Sigma

However, it is not like our founders read about this group in a history book and decided to make a fraternity out of it. One of our founders learned about the organization from an elderly gentleman during a trip to Europe and was encouraged to bring the group to America. This person, along with four close friends, created the modern-day Kappa Sigma fraternity and became friends and brothers. Our modern ritual was created by Steven Alonzo Jackson, whom we call "the golden-hearted Virginian," using a masonic theme, beautifully incorporating the 'bologna tradition.'

Our pledge manual, which contains the information I have given above, is a lot of history of Kappa Sigma, but is much less than 10% of what their is to learn about Kappa Sigma. There is much more to our European history and the founding of the fraternity in America that one learns upon initiation.

Here is my deal....as long as you belive in the Oath you took, then you're good. Religion is, among other things, an outer shell for an inner shell. The shell of a crab is different from the shell of a nautilis, but they have both have meat. Sea food. ;)

Thanks for the reply, docetboy.

I would like to discuss the Bologna group further, but I don't wish to hijack this thread, and I don't wish to inadvertantly reveal something inappropriate. I will say that working from the same information you have available to you, I don't see the clear link from KS of 1400 to Kappa Sigma of 1869 that you do.

I see a lot of generations passing between the extinction of KS and the founding of Kappa Sigma, and it's unclear exactly what was taken from the old group and what was ultimately crafted from scratch for the new fraternity, so I question how much of the essence of KS really made it into Kappa Sigma.

I can think of several other societies that could legitimately (by your standard of what constitutes a direct link to an original group) claim MUCH earlier founding dates than they do - Kappa Alpha Society, Skull & Bones, Chi Phi and Sigma Chi come to mind.

Maybe I can wrestle this back to topic by saying there is always more than one interpretation for any given written work, whether it's the bible or a lecture on fraternity history. What I consider Christianity in my own fraternity ritual, Minister Hatchett actually considers a belittling of Christ. Go figure.

Anyway, sorry if I've hijacked a good thread. I'll try not to do it again. I just think ANY unilateral statement on any subject tends to invite questions and criticism.

wptw