First I dont give two $hits about "And truthfully, the whole reason people want it to be legal is so that they can not stress about fighting their desires and cravings for this substance." Its legal for many of us on this board, myself included, and I still eant it lowered. Because I believe it should be. Dont tell me why I drink either. You've never even met me, please. Actually I DO enjoy the tast of wine,and often think a nice Riesling is a great compliment to a meal. I also enjoy the smooth flavor of Southern Comfort. And I do both without getting plowed...or even buzzed. When I do wanna get hammered, I do it by drinking beer. I do like the taste of a good hefferviesen.

But i'll make the argument, as I am feeling a bit fiesty today.

Babydoll, when you get a bit older, you wont see the world as much in terms of black and white. There are shades of grey. That will come with age. Just because some fools in a legislature somewhere all voted the same way and created a law, that doesnt make it just. There are unjust laws. And if people didnt complain against unjust laws and work to change them, Rosa Parks would still be riding on the back of the bus.

I'm not sure if saying that the true reason people want to drink alcohol is "you want to get drunk and get loose without worrying about getting in trouble...." That's painting things with a rather large brush, don't you think?

I think that an 18 year old cut-off would make sense. This is around the age when most people either go to college, move out of their parents homes and go to work, or go into the armed services. This is also a time when one could learn how to use alcohol responsibly.

Just wanted to throw this question out though: If the drinking age were to be lowered, what would be the best way of doing it? Should it be a sliding scale, where at first 18 year olds are able to buy products with lower alcohol contents (like it was for DeltAlum), and then build it up to all alcohol products over a period of time? Or should it be just beer and lower alcohol products? All at once?

Collin

Sigmagrrl,

You are correct about one thing. Underage drinking is against the law, and because of that, and for Risk Management purposes, it shouldn't be tolerated in our organizations.

But...

That's one reason I'd like to see the law changed and the drinking age lowered to eighteen.

Several others have pointed this out, and I will repeat it. Not all of us have the addictive personalities that your parents have. I do have some experience with one of our daughters who was using drugs, but has been sober for over two years now. Obviously, I still worry about her.

On the other hand, I drink (although seldom these days), and have for many years.

Please don't tell me what I think tastes good and doesn't. I liked the taste of beer from a very young age. There are wines and liquors I enjoy, and others that I think taste like gasoline -- and won't touch.

And, by the way, you're speaking from a very small experience base. Many of our parents drink, but are not addicted. I don't think that gives you the background or knowledge to dictate to us. There are innumerable medical studies that show a couple of drinks a day are beneficial to your health. There are probably just as many that say the opposite. Hell, my grandfather ate fried red meat pretty much every day for every one of his 98 plus years. Personally, I think as long as you do things in moderation, you'll probably be OK.

I feel badly for your unfortunate experience -- but it doesn't happen that way to the vast majority of us.

As someone pointed out, don't paint everyone with the same brush.

Let's try to be just a little less self-righteous.

I'm Used to Being the Soul Voice.....
 

I never said anything I think or feel applies to everyone or anyone on this board. I probably do think in black and white, we all do on certain issues. But that doesn't mean I can't be persuaded to think another way. That's how arguements are won and lost. Someone mentioned something about a law that let's you order one drink only at a restaurant if you are with your parents. Not a bad little idea....Could be a good way to start with the lowering of the drinking age, if that dream becomes a reality. I think in shades of the experiences I have had: too many sisters (1 is too many for me) that got sexually assaulted when under the influence, too many people who have a few drinks after that great prom that don't wake up the next day because of driving drunk with an underage friend. It does worry me that the audience that reads this (potential Greeks, Greeks, independents, etc) sees so many pro alcohol posts. And again, I never said that there ISN'T ANYONE who actually doesn't like the taste, I said I can't believe that a majority of people would want it lowered so that they can get into that rockin' wine and cheese party next weekend...Seems as if others here are just as guilty of letting THEIR personal experience paint their opinion, so don't say it's just me. That's what an opinion comes from a lot of the time: experience....

Re: I'm Used to Being the Soul Voice.....
 

But there are also incidents and deaths caused by or involving alcohol with individuals over the legal drinking age. Again, that is an entirely different problem of its own; alcoholism. I do not believe that lowering the drinking age will guarantee a rise or fall in alcoholism.

When I was hit by the semi not too long ago, the driver that ran the stop sign was drunk. I don't know if I told many people that, but he was, and he is 46 years old. Definitely an alcohol related incident involving someone well over the legal age limit. Point: there is no immunity from alcoholism, everyone can become a victim, no matter age, time, place, etc.

Blaine

I believe the other province with a drinking age of 18 is either Alberta or Manitoba (or both).

In Canada I believe the drinking age should be dropped to 18 in all provinces. It seems so ridiculous (sp?) to go to university were 90% of the students are legal drinking age and the 18 year olds have to wait 6 months to a year. It's not like you suddenly wake up one morning at the age of 19 and feel 10 times more mature and responsible than you did at the age of 18.

Growing up in a British household I had small glasses of beer, wine and sherry at the young age of 10 or 11. And at the age of 14 when I went to England where I was of legal age to go into pubs and order drinks and have them with my parents...

I was looking for stats on the web regarding drinking patterns in Canada and the USA, but haven't really found anything.

Food for thought....

I think that the alcohol problem in the US is very similar to our teenage pregnancy problem.

All of our money for education goes into teaching ABSTAINANCE. Clearly, these kids are going to have sex and drink no matter how many times you tell them it's bad. Hell, they probably do it more because of the fact.

So why not spend the time and effort teaching how to do it responsibly? Wear condoms, don't drink and drive, etc etc etc.... These are the messages we should be sending. Not ones that we KNOW are going to fall on deaf ears.

As a society, I think we should face up to the fact that while most high school graduates aren't as mature as someone around 30 years old, MOST are responsible enough to handle these things. There are those that never will be -- but I really don't see much difference between an 18 and 21 year old in that respect.

We shouldn't penalize an age group just to be more PC and appease groups like MADD.

Re: That's the Key!
 

Yes.

Ever eat just one oreo? You make a huuuuge assumption here. You have no proof for this statement. I don't want to drink to excess every weekend - and I enjoy beer for the flavor.

OK - I'm going to throw away years of college learning, and go ahead and agree with your assumption here (which is rich, let me tell you).

SO FUCKING WHAT? I hate to reduce it to such a banal level, but seriously, it is NOT the government's job to regulate morality. Being free to say and do what normally they wouldn't, sexual inhibition, all that - that's for me to choose, not you, ace. Sorry.

And besides - here you're again making an enormous false generalization.

This is non sequitur to the argument, as you put it.

The point here is that the government is perfectly willing to lower age standards to allow younger and younger people to stand trial, enter the military, and etc - but age standards for legal substances going up is allowable how? It makes no sense.

Please find for me in the constitution of the United States of America where these powers are delegated to the national governing body . . . and don't kid yourself, the federal highway funding law is, effectively and purposefully, legislation of the drinking age nationwide.

Ms sigmagrrl - take your own advice, and don't bullshit a bullshitter . . . your arguments here are far from convincing (or cogent). I totally understand how your views have formed from past bad experience in your family, but don't extend bad generalizations onto the rest of us. Alcohol is not the root of all evil - perhaps instead of your vehement anti-alcohol stances, you should put the time into alcohol education, and teaching people how to properly fit alcohol into life given family history, and the dangers of the substance.

Or keep telling me that I just want to get wasted every day, get girls drunk to have sex with them, and that I can't appreciate a fine Merlot. Think about which one makes more sense.

Personally, I think an adult is an adult, and as such, should be able to have a drink legally. That said, this country needs to decide at just what age one becomes an adult. If you can legally marry at 18, vote at 18, be drafted into the military at 18, be held legally responsible for debts and contracts at 18, be emancipated from your parents at 18, rent pornos at 18, etc etc then why not legally drink? It just makes no sense to me. Now on the other hand I don't necessarily agree that 18 year-olds are really ready for all of those responsibilities. I guess I would rather see everything get bumped up to 21, but if they won't do that then the drinking age needs to be lowered.

This also depends on the policy of the restaurant. Ohio state law states that minors can drink if they are with a parent. However, I work in a restaurant, and we are under no circumstances allowed to serve someone under 21, even with parental consent.

You can actually do the same if you go into a bar with your parents. I think the age requirement is 16 for this, but it might be 18, but if you are with your parent/legal guardian, you can drink, as long as both the restaurant and your parent(s) allow it.

Just another thought about a comment above.

While it is true that nobody has been drafted since the Vietnam era (my era), the reason that 18 year old males (and why only males? But that's a whole other topic, isn' it?) still have to register is to keep the pool of eligible men available in case involuntary conscription should ever have to be reinstated in times of war. So, while nobody is being drafted, the Selective Service system is still in place, thus, the argument that "you're old enough to die for your country," while begging the question a little, is still valid.

Re: I'm Used to Being the Soul Voice.....
 

OK, I can see where you're coming from here - but this just allows them to exercise their common sense, and personal responsibility, if they get into a potential drinking situation if they go greek, no?

This also is a good point - and I'm not going to try to change your opinions on things. But again, a discussion involves sharing opposing views, and anecdotal evidence doesn't carry as much weight with me personally as logical deduction . . . I think this is a great discussion, and it only becomes that with opposing views and differing experiences.


----

Whoa, and to get back on topic - how about an idea that I think optimist prime put out years back . . . Drinking age at 16, driving age at 18? Now THAT is an interesting (if not novel) change . . .

KSIG wrote:

"Drinking age at 16, driving age at 18? Now THAT is an interesting (if not novel) change . . ."

Oh man, I'm glad my youngest is 18 and out of high school so I'm sure he won't the the one to lynch you for that!

Seriously, though, it's not a bad thought.

On second thought, parents don't want to have to drive their kids to all of their activities any longer than necessary, so that will never fly.

At the end of the day, the drinking age IS more about moral regulation than anything to do with actual legal accountability. And anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. The fact that all of the above mentioned facts (save for the porno thing...) do not in any way deal with MORALITY should be a great indicator that it really has nothing to do with an issue of responisibility and what a young adult can and cannot handle. Why not lower the age? As I said before, Canada is hardly a corrupt culture. Are we a more irresponsible society because our drinking age is 2 and 3 years lower? Hardly. And are our societies that drastically different???

Suggesting that 18 or 19 year olds are not yet ready for the responsibility of alcohol is a stupid senseless argument. Some 15 year olds are incredibly responsible and some 46 year old men get into semis while they're drunk and side swipe a car full of young men almost killing them. Who can be so arrogant as to suggest that they can flat out say that people under the age of whatever aren't responsible enough and that all of those older are? If they are deemed old enough to be legally emancipated from their parents, how can the government possibly then say they are not responsible enough to make their own decisions about the consumption of alcohol? It's completely hypocritical. The governement seems to feel that they need play a role in determining the morality and responsiblity of young adults past the time their parents are legally bound too....

Should the drinking age be lowered? It's hard to say.

At the age of 20 I was living in a country where I was taking wine tasting classes so I could learn the subtle differences between different wines. I was not out getting sloshed, just learning how to pick a wine from a wine list that goes with my meal. Irresponsible behavior? I don't think so but none the less, it is behavior that is illegal in America.

On the other hand, my freshman year roomate had a serious alcohal problem. When she was sober (which was rare) she suffered from horrible mood swings and was always cranky. For her, alcohal was the "forbidden fruit" and once she got her hands on it, she was addicted.

I guess my point is that 21 is not a magic number that determines that you are ready for alcohal. All people mature differently, some people can handle alcohal at a younger age, other people should probably wait until they are 21, and other people will probably never be able to drink responsibly.

Sigmagrrl-
If you actually read most of the posts that support lowering the drinking age, it's all about the right of an individual (who is held accountable as an adult in every other way) to make the choice of having an alcoholic drink. It's not about getting wasted at the next party, it's about being treated as an adult. Growing up is having choices and being made accountable for them. Obviously your friends made some unfortunate wrong choices, and were held accountable for them. You can't say that people who constantly go get wasted, don't know that they're making the wrong choice. Making them the victim of not knowing better is crap, because they do, they knowingly made the wrong choice in overindulgence. There are many people who have grown up in the absolute worst environment and had unfortunate luck, and yet they made all the right choices and grew up to be successful.

The argument is that an 18 year old who is accountable as an adult in the military, for a crime, in financial litigation should be allowed to make the choice of consuming an alcoholic beverage. I support that choice.

Re: I'm Used to Being the Soul Voice.....
 

sigmagrrl,

I'm not here to attack you, and I apologize for posting a "pro-alcohol" discussion. I was interested in finding out if people had thought about this sort of deal, because it's really just a big cycle in America. Alcohol used to be legal, then it was banned through prohibition, then repealed, then many years later, the age was restricted, it just seems to me that this cycles back and forth in this country.

You personal reasons confuse me. Just because people drink for the effects, it's not necessary for 18 year olds to drink? So then why is it OK for 21+ yr. olds to drink it, even though they may be drinking it for the same reasons when they were younger.

I don't think the government knows best for us, especially since they have set the age to smoke cigarettes (which in my mind is just as if not more damaging) for 18 and drinking at 21. In fact, not that I ever like studies, but drinking alcohol, in moderation of course, is healthy for the body.

So now the argument becomes, since we can assume all persons under the age of 21 are immature and irresponsible, they would only drink to get drunk, which means we can't allow them to drink. I know bad things happen sometimes, but I don't think the drinking age is better at 21 than 18.

If this country classifies you as an adult at 18, why is drinking the only thing restricted from you? (By the way, I'm over 21, just in case someone was thinking I'm a punk kid was just complaining cause he can't drink :)

One last thing, you dismissed the argument as BS if someone dies for their country that's no reason to let them drink, especially since the draft was eliminated. Look, I don't even want to go so far back, but back then that was the argument for voting rights. People died and couldn't vote, how unfair was that? So then the laws were finally changed and 18 yr. olds could vote, plus, the drinking age back then was 18!

I don't honestly think the purpose of drinking should be an issue, it's something personal, and if you want to binge, drink socially, not drink at all, or whatever, you should be allowed.

It doesn't have to be just dropping the age, you could make an argument that meets people half way, such as liquor education where you receive a "liquor license" kind of related to a learner's permit until you turn 21. They could impose stricter penalties if you drink and drive while between the age of 18-21, although I think drinking and driving should not be different for anyone regardless of age. You may make any sort of guidelines you wish, but don't just dismiss the idea completely, it doesn't help anyone. If you want to prevent the sexual harassments, drunk driving, abusive and addictive alcohol problems, then teach them the rules. I just don't see much difference in maturity levels from 18-21, those are my thoughts.


RUgreek

If this country classifies you as an adult at 18, why is drinking the only thing restricted from you?

Actually, you have to be 25 (in most states) to rent a car, and 35 to run for president :D

that is mostly for credit purposes. You can rent a car under the age of 25 (if the company has that restriction) for a higher price (again, credit related/established purposes).

Note that in most state you must be 18 to get a loan with a bank.
You must be 18 to establish a credit card.
You must be 18 to establish a bank checking account.

(There are exceptions to the rules above, but I think any exception that allows a person under the age of 18 get get a loan, a credit cared or a checking account requires a parental/legal guardian co-signer.)