Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOW THAT ITS OVER
 

oh man. did you go there...i know you didnt just go there. i just know you didnt. well check back for my edit on this post cause i want to put something good up when i get a chance.

To Bro Strawter:
See, comments like that emphasize the disunity that causes people to "disagree" or "disapprove" of the whole 25/52.

I believe that she asked for OPINIONS and everyone is entitled to one. I really don't think the purpose of the thread was to have everyone post that they agreed with her.


To gamma_girl52 and Notorious4it:
There is a LOT of bashing going on and that's what ruins it in the eyes of some people (including mine). I think it's wonderful for people to get together and for two organizations to appreciate their common history and purpose but it becomes tainted when it causes a division within both organizations.


I agree but it is totally impossible to have UNITY through division.

I agree. Can you imagine the impact the orgs could make if they were able to work together? BUT there are a lot of people who claim that they want to see this happen but they are doing a lot of things in the name of 25/52 that are getting them farther and father away from their goal.

Virtuous Woman. . .

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But I bet you didn't have to recite the founders backwards with a match between your eyelids, upside down and naked on a frozen lake.

I'm glad you decided to bring the original topic back, so let me address if I can.

Yes I did ask for opinions and comments, and actually I was anticipating some disagreement. But with having two different viewpoints...you'd be surprised of what comes from it. So I appreciate everyone's comments so far, especially from my female brothers.

Those are good points, and perhaps that is the root of the problem, the division (that's the word right there). And why is is still there if most of us are saying "it's bigger than this"? If I invited you to an event that my chapter was having and other brothers were going to be there, would you show up? Better yet would you be comfortable. That is where we are not seeming to get to in this...even though you have a lot of folks saying "it doesn't matter" the fear and uncertainty is still there.

And another thing. From what I have seen, those that are "in" this family may not necessarily agree with the initial reason why it was formed. Many want to move on from that (the exclusion thing) and focus on what they should have put more of a focus on in the first place, service. When I met some of these brothers (and these were some pre-76 and early 80's made) they were not even focusing on that.

They want to see the AA chapters (most likely all male) learn how to start taking care of business more efficently and not waste time on something that is already in effect. There are women in the frat-fine-so let's get down to some real business...these brothers brought paperwork with them to share with the other younger brothers. Like lifetime membership and how to start an alumni association. That is what needs to be going on. So many have moved on from that, because they are trying to get stronger and grow. Not because of the whole co-ed issue, but because they don't have a voice to get some changes made IF they want them or not.

Can you give me an example of your last statement where you've seen that occur?

Well how about some solutions then since we know what your stance is? Or does it not matter either way, or what.

Family Love
 

No, I didn't. I guess I skated!!!!!:) :)

'fraid so. . .but don't worry, I just signed up for Skater Haters Anonymous.

Gamma_Girl, I have no comment at this time. :)

DAMN there goes the peace. the "no-nos" have won.

why you trying to get others to knock you out. you can hardly deal with me.

so the devil rears her head
 

lol. . .

Satan....and her unwilling followers
 

oh if you think thats devilish you aint see nothing yet. You know i can get much worse than this, check the other thread.

I bet you didn't have to swim across that frozen lake, holding your match between your eyelids until you saw the four golden stars in the blue sky and then swim back

Virtuous:

Thanks for responding back. I feel you... Now I think I may see the real issue.

Send me a pm on where you'll be at the weekend, maybe we can meet. I'd love that!

family love.....not
 

Bsoldier ...all i have to say is disgusting. I thought the dirty dirty's were bad but damn could it be even the bears are better than that. Makes the struggle so much more worth it. I wonder if i took em to d'water would they come clean?

All I got to say is pass the pizza.

pizza ewww
 

i am already about to regurge the internals. I am so glad that things are the way they are. You're silly. I am just so disgusted.


BTW I gotta find a particular color blue for this jacket deal...do you have a clue as to what's the truest to "our" blue?

USUALLY, if you ask for Royal Blue, it will be exactly what we need. However, if you are doing it in person, go ahead and make them show you a sample, because royal blue on some coaches jackets looks lighter than royal blue on pullovers, I've seen it. :(

ok now what about the gold whats the closest old or just the plain. I am asumming old but i have never seen it up close so let me know.

You got it, Old Gold. I don't see to many variations of it, and most if not all greek stores have it.

thegreekshop.com has something called "Vegas Gold" but I have yet to find out what that is.

VEGAS GOLD
 

vegas gold...use your imagination, super flashy.

Re: 25/52
 

Hey Darden, Q5, gamma_girl52, bro_strawter, prettyDrLuv, and notorious4it. I haven't been hear for a while. I've going through my breathe in breathe out stage of that huge weekend. I wanted to see if this question was answered, and then try to give the short run to an understanding.

There is no urgency into recognizing the 25/52 relationship. The necessity was born into this organization and the relationship is just a natural thing. The fact that it still exist despite the coed chapters tells you that the relationship doesn't need to be official. However, where the necessity rest will be harder to see from those whom it doesn't affect. The affect are on those in this family.

The Way it affects Gamma Sigma Sigma:

In 1976, When Alpha Phi Omega created female membership, Gamma Sigma Sigma began to lose ground in the service arena. Having chartered over 160 chapters, they were active at several campuses where there was an Alpha Phi Omega chapter. Between 1952 and 1982, (30 years) they chartered over 140 chapters. 1982 was their Zeta Zeta chapter's birthday. Since 1982 (20 years) only about 13 or 14 chapters have been created. We had established this relationship so strong that some of the chapters of Gamma Sigma SIgma has Alpha Phi Omega in their chapter history as having helped them get started. The Alumni director of Gamma Sigma Sigma told me that they were losing a lot of chapters where there was an coed chapter of Alpha Phi Omega in the 90's. In 1986, Alpha Phi Omega made a rule where if you were not coed you had to be coed if your chapter became inactive for two years. This not only got rid of chapters not in good standing, but it also left chapters of Gamma Sigma Sigma vitually by themselves. And D9 didn't support them they were on their own, like at Dillard they died out.

As a campus entity, we were two organizations that had the support of the other. And on Black campuses, it is D9 and company. Meaning that when D9 did something, nothing else seem to matter. We had our own thing. A family of organizations that got mad respect because they couldn't say we were a club, society or special interest org. We were a legit bonified frat.

The way it affects males in Alpha Phi Omega:

The decision in 1976 didn't stop several brothers in Alpha Phi Omega from being male chapters. And in the black chapters no chapter became coed. Every black coed chapter became coed basically because they had to. Because none of them was going to ever become coed any other way. To proponents of coed chapters, the 1986 ruling was necessary. It created an avenue for chapters to become coed after the all male proponents left the campus. But what happened is as more chapters became coed chapters, fewer males interested in joing this organization. In some places, groups of females are joining with only a couple of males in it. The male attraction was dissappearing. Along with attraction Alpha Phi Omega's Focus on male development. The family, is not only a sisters/brothers thing, it is also a male bonding thing as well. This is where the frat is fraternity in the traditional sence, developed by earlier brothers.

To sum it up, we are holding on to what made these two organizations great

holding on
 

well....i guess it should be left as it is ( not recognized by anyone cept' the individuals who believe in it) or let go.

Q5. . .I mostly agree with you. . .but Erykah Badu said it best. . .

"Let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go, ooooooo-hhhoooooo!"

Pack light, Q5

Family Love?
 

While your point has some credibility, we have to remember that the issues that our organizations deal with are real issues and as long as the issues persist, there is a need for BOTH organizations (and others). So to say that APO left no room for GSS is not only unsubstantiated but illogical. There is ALWAYS service to be done

If this relationship is "natural" then why aren't ALL chapters of GSS and APO stressed to have this relationship "prosper"? Based on the definitions of the word natural, I just don't see how your argument works.

natural
adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

4. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
5. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
7. Faithfully representing nature or life.
8. Expected and accepted: “In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love” (Duff Cooper).
9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.



I don't want to step on any Gamma Sig's toes but my understanding is that Gamma Sigma Sigma was created to be an organization in its own rite. I'm sure that the ladies of Gamma Sigma Sigma are more than capable of holding their own without the assistance of APO or anyone else.

Alpha Phi Omega went co-ed because it had to not just black co-ed chapters. It happened, let's move on.

Can you please post some numbers on this? Or at least quote a source.

This is really a sad statement. Do you REALLY believe that what has made Alpha Phi Omega great is male bonding? I think that brotherhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega but when the dust clears, I want Alpha Phi Omega to be known for its service to others. I'm sorry I think that there is more to life than male bonding and there's definitely more to Alpha Phi Omega than that.

Well I have no more to Say...
 

I do agree with you, Virtuous...Gamma Sig certainly can and always has functioned as a SEPARATE organization. Gamma Sig as a sorority has never come out and said, "It's Alpha Phi Omega's fault!" when referring to chapters being closed...there are different reasons behind each one and it's not like they can't re-open. That's kind of pushing it anyway, to blame one organization for the shrinkage of another. Jaybee, you know I love ya, but come on now.

After getting different reponses from all of you guys (and I thank you for the convo), I think it is best to leave it as it is now...I do not think it's necessary for it to go National. With everything else, this has flaws and until those flaws are recognized and dealt with then nothing is changing. Everyone seems content in their opinions and views, that's fine.

So after this I have no more to add to the topic. Thanks to everybody for responding thus far.

sho nuf
 

See even i can be nice on occassion cause you know.......

I'm more incline to see a disappearing act...but hey W/W

Re: Well I have no more to Say...
 

I've talked to black and white sisters at different times in my 22 years of existence. I speak no fables. A membership director of Gamma Sigma Sigma from the Baltimore area told me that many of their campuses was losing membership to Alpha Phi Omega.

Let’s be real. This family is being cherished, and backed up by some male members of Alpha Phi Omega and some female members of Gamma Sigma Sigma. If both organizations blanketed all their chapters into being coed they would not try to have a relationship. Do you really think that members who love the coed chapter that they are in, wants a relationship with a sorority? Come on now. There are campuses where the coed chapters of Alpha Phi Omega exist and single gender chapters of Gamma Sigma Sigma exist. They are in separate worlds. Look at University of Florida, and University of Georgia. They know they each org is there. Nobody is recognizing this relationship but proponents of single gender chapters in Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma.

Is a separation there? I would say yes. Is it a problem? That is at the individual level. You have to realize there are a lot of male brothers that still haven’t been around a female APO. So they snap, when one comes around uninvited. That might change over time. Then it may not. Some don’t even say anything, they just gives you looks. Others have dealt with it before. So they try to be more cordial. Of course when they come to a national conference or convention everybody is cordial. Also, there are individuals in Alpha Phi Omega who would like nothing more than to see the death of Ay-Phi-Que. And they wouldn’t support anything that is in support of them.

There are a lot of people who love the single gender aspect of the 25/52 family. It actually is the life-force of the family itself. In my opinion, a blow up in coed arena lessens arenas where there can be single gender activities. In my opinion if all the chapters in Alpha Phi Omega where coed, then the same thing would happen as it did on Dillard’s campus:

The chapter had been a low-key chapter. The family was being hyped and the sisters were so excited that the chapter drew attention to itself with having 39 on their spring line. I knew they were in trouble when I heard it. I tried to promote an activity on their campus. The other counseled organizations pick that chapter apart. They never had a chance to learn what they were in. And they never had strong relationship with the coed chapter of Alpha Phi Omega who is still on that campus today. Yet those two chapters use to have a history together.

See very few people in our organizations pledge anything else back in the day. You got every thing you need in the 25/52 family. It was just that tight. We didn’t have to go to a
Pan-held Party, we had own thing. Matter of fact we use to be invited and won some step competitions sponsored by the Pan.

And lets not think that single gender entities are not about service. If any all male chapter don’t think about service, that’s sad. When I was in college we had dorm cloth drive contest, day care Halloween parties, and even a Melting Pot Festival for foreign students. I think you can talk about other things and do service too.

Re: Family Love?
 

(Your argument is design to disagree. You have to understand what I;m saying. I said. Gamma Sigma Sigma began to lose ground in the service arena. This is the service sector of organizations on campus. They lost many chapters. It is the fallout of making largest service organization a coed organization. Especially when the two organizations had a relationship going. Some chapters even had Alpha Phi Omega in their history as helping them get started. If you can’t see that that is logic behind that you don’t want to see it. Together we were two fraternal organizations against many. Service was being done but you have to also recognize that Gamma Sigma Sigma was not on any council. I think their chances would have been better if they were on a council when Alpha Phi Omega established the female membership. But see, our organizations were hand-in-hand sort or speak while on the same campus. Our organizations were helping legitimize the other as being fraternal organizations because we were sister and brother organizations. Without each other our appearance outside the counciled organizations are that of a club or society. This causes people to go through your chapters instead of staying in them. Remember every greek letter organization on campus is doing service these days.)


If this relationship is "natural" then why aren't ALL chapters of GSS and APO stressed to have this relationship "prosper"?

(The place where it is a natural thing is simple, that’s the way it happened naturally. Women and men got together for a common goal, like they do within Alpha Phi Omega. There was a time where the relationship was just that close. We had our Alpha Phi Omega pledges saying big sister to other Gamma Sigs. Natural in that it is a brother organization to a sister group. If you can’t see the nature in that, then we are talking on the wrong level.)

I'm sure that the ladies of Gamma Sigma Sigma are more than capable of holding their own without the assistance of APO or anyone else.

(I see you like to argue. Everybody can use help every now and then, and we always love having Gamma Sigma Sigma recruite for us. You see, on a black campus it is always good to have another organization that has your back. Because the D9 is always saying something negative about your existence. "They are not that, they are not this" Yadda Yadda. Two voices in the service sector always lifts interest in service organizations.)


( fewer males interested in joing this organization.)

Can you please post some numbers on this? Or at least quote a source.

(Sure, more predominately female chapters are being created. TennState 18 out of 33 and, Lagrange 14 out of 16, Indiana State University’s had 113 members 98 were female. Emory had 75 members 57 were female. And other predominately female chapters say that they have a hard time attracting males. What? I know what I’m talking about.)

Do you REALLY believe that what has made Alpha Phi Omega great is male bonding?

(No, but that was apart of it. But it also wasn’t just service either. If I had to place on one item I would say it was the association with the Boy Scouts of America. But that’s just me. However I would also include that standard of manhood that withstood the test of time. I’m well aware that people join Alpha Phi Omega for different reasons. I will tell you now it wasn’t as simple as just service. Alpha Phi Alpha does service. Kappa Alpha Psi does Service. Even Kappa Kappa Psi does service.)

I think that brotherhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega but when the dust clears, I want Alpha Phi Omega to be known for its service to others. I'm sorry I think that there is more to life than male bonding and there's definitely more to Alpha Phi Omega than that.

(See there that “I want” again. “I Want” is what changed this organization from what it was to what it is today. People got in this organization and change it because they said “I Want” instead of saying “It has”. I think manhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega. I think that you should never re-write or white-out your history, you should only add to it. I really do agree with you when you say that they is more to Alpha Phi Omega than male bonding. But you know it’s in there. And there is more to Alpha Phi Omega than service. But you know it’s in there.)

Jaybee,
I don't see how this post was necessary. If you'd like to share any further comments or "enlightenment" with me, please e-mail me.

The QUEEN has spoken.

Let it die
 

I think we all see why this probably got deleted.

I just answered your post to me Viturtous Woman. Why do you have to see my post as being necessary? Don't you think that a post should be as the author sees it necessary.