On my campus, service and academic GLOs don't have anything to do with the social GLOs. There are a ton of academic ones, along with APO. They do their own things. I know that Phi Sigma Pi has parties and such, but other than that, I have no idea what they do socially.

Any organization with a Greek-lettered name is a GLO, but the term, "Fellow Greek" is something I only use for NPHC, IFC, or NPC organizations. As for the service/social issue, DST is a social sorority which performs community service projects. The distinction is professional vs. social because both perform public service activities (or at least they can if they choose to.) Social is not meant to demean or take away from our service activities, but rather refers to the means of securing membership - i.e. it is not open to all women and men in a particular field, major, etc. It doesn't mean we sit around and party all the time - the relationship that we have sister-to-sister and sister-to-organization is just as significant as the work we do, so in that light being a "social organization" sets us apart from people that are brought together based on their interest in a particular field or discipline - they are more like clubs to me, albeit clubs with greek-lettered names.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: interesting
 

? How is that in reference to what you quoted from me?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: interesting
 

You said something about that you never knew that APO wanted to be seen in the same light as social GLO's. I replied, "not really, we just want to be taken seriously".

This is why we make the distinction.
 

Quoted from www.nphchq.org (I did my best to include exerpts without taking them out of their originial context):

"Undergraduate chapters of NPHC affiliate organizations began to spread to major research universities admitting Blacks and to major historically Black colleges in the South. Graduate chapters were birthed in cities across the US as civic and service organizations, due to blatant racism prohibiting African Americans from participating in general civic organizations within their communities after college graduation..."

"The need to form campus-based councils to represent NPHC affiliate organizations is not motivated by a "separatist" philosophy. The establishment of councils assists in maintaining a distinct identity as "service based organizations," as opposed to organizations that may be strictly social in nature; NPHC, Inc. does not advocate a disassociation from NIC, NPC, or NALFO organizations on college campuses. It should also be noted that member organizations have never restricted membership solely to African Americans. They have, however, developed a distinctive African American style in their activities both social and philanthropic."


Soror: I don't think that the term social has negative connotations at all times. The reason why I was making the distinction is because a distinction has ALWAYS been made. I was always taught (and read) that our organizations are "service" organizations. This is not to say that the "social" organizations do not do service. However, HBGLOs and the NPHC choose (even today) to make the distinction.


Much Love

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: interesting
 

Oh, well, that's your take on it. Some of you all apparently want to be viewed in the same light.

Re: This is why we make the distinction.
 

I definitely agree that we are a service-based organization, but the distinction was between professional and social, not professional, social or philanthropic - the phinlanthropy or service goes with both. Also, most colleges group fraternities and sororities as "social organizations" which raises tempers amongst some, but it's an academic (Bairds-like) designation.

When I see professional or service organizations (which I have belonged to or currently belong to several of these things) I can clearly distinguish between them and a fraternity such as Sigma Nu.

Sigma Nu calls upon its members to be first and foremost loyal to the brotherhood of Sigma Nu. Brothers are called upon to put their fraternity above ALL other associations and make it a life committment.

I may be going out on a limb here and it may be different for someone at another school but from what I've seen APO, CKI, SAI, etc do not ask this of their members.

If a woman is a Delta Zeta and an SAI she will be first and foremost a Delta Zeta and THEN she belongs to SAI.

Personally I don't think being "greek" is a very exclusive term. If you think you are greek than you are right.

To be "greek" is only defined when your organization is known.

I personally think that anyone that makes the lifelong committment to a 'general' fraternity such as Sigma Nu then they are going against their organization (and in my opinion are traitors) if they make that same pledge to ANY other organization.

Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone but that's the way I see it.

LHT
Kevin
MT #5
University of Central Oklahoma

I would have to say that Phi Mu Alpha does, indeed, expect this of its brothers.

I completely agree with you Mystic. Most brothers of Phi Mu Alpha are loyal to the group in the same way I have seen my friends who are in IFC groups are to their GLO. (The sound of all the brothers screaming "Once a Sinfonian, always a Sinfonian" leaves that impression on you.)I think that there needs to be a distinction here.. Groups like QMA, SAI and the like almost fall into a "special interest social fraternity" more than a proffessional or honnor group.I think that if you are a member of Phi Mu Alpha that you cannot be in a another social GLO (am I right MysticCat? You would think living with a Sinfonian I would know these things better!)

TG

I personally consider SAI to be a greek letter organization becuase as far as I can see you pretty much believe the same things as any other sorority, sisterhood. I although would like it if the music groups would atleast try to be involved with the social groups. I have a friend in Phi Mu Alpha and he acts like they want nothing to do with the social GLO's. I think that is the reason why people do not consider them a social GLO. Another thing that bothers me is at my school in the cafeteria every social GLO has their own table with signs and stuff and the music GLO's do not get one. This does not seem fair to me, but nothing I can do.

Anne Marie

P.S. The SAI's on my campus are awsome and I am thinking about joining in the fall maybe.

I had a friend that was in Phi MU Alpha and Mu Phi Epsilon ( a professional music coed fraternity) And I had another friend that was in Phi Mu Alpha and Sigma Phi Epsilon at the same time. So I am not really sure how it works.

Anne Marie

Currently, and legally speaking, our Constitution states that "no man may be considered [for membership in Phi Mu Alpha] who is a member of any other secret national fraternal society in music, nor can he join any such organization so long as he remains a member of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia." I imagine that this will change to a prohibition on membership in any other social/general fraternity if we actually do go through with seeking membership in the NIC, as I have heard is being explored.

Practically speaking, I have known of very few brothers in FMA who also joined another social fraternity. There was only one such in my chapter, and the rest of the brotherhood did not like it -- too apt to lead to divided loyalty.

Give that Sinfonian you live with a "Hail Sinfonia!" for me. ;)

Don't know how this could be, unless he renounced his membership in either FMA or MFE. This dual membership would be prohibited by both groups -- see my post to TrojanGirl above.

My Chapter of TKE has 3 Phi Mu Alpha's as brothers. TKE international has no problem with it because PMA is not reconized as a social fraternity.

I can't speak with regard to any of the other music fraternties/sororities, much less some of the other groups that have been mentioned, but I think that the following generalizations are accurate with regard to FMA:

• FMA was conceived and founded as a social fraternity.
• Over the years, FMA began to define itself more and more as a professional fraternity. Some national leaders pushed the agenda of becoming a thoroughly professional fraternity, although traits of a social fraternity never died out completely.
• Partially as a result of renewed interest in the roots of the Fraternity, partially based on the desires of collegiate members, and partially as a result of Title IX, FMA made the decision in the 1980's to be a social, not a professional, fraternity, and to remove all "professional fraternity" references from governing documents, publications, and the like.
• While FMA is a social fraternity, it is not yet a member of the NIC, so it does not have the same "social footing," as it were, of other general fraternities (such as TKE), nor does it have prohibitions on dual membership except as to other music fraternities.
• The degree to which FMA seems or acts social or professional depends on the specific chapter and campus. Some chapters (including perhaps the one zntke711's TKE brothers belong to) still behave much like a chapter of a professional fraternity, two decades after FMA's rejection of professional fraternity status. Other chapters see themselves as social rather than professional, but like the independence of not being too involved with other social fraternities. Still others act like all the other social, general fraternities on their campuses, participating fully in the inter-fraternity conference, Greek Week, rush rules and requirements, prohibitions on dual memberships, and the like. To some degree, this may also depend on the province, or part of the country, in the chapter is in -- some provinces seem to be more "social" oriented.
• Without a doubt, the national trend is toward FMA as a social fraternity. Again, my understanding is that this may include seeking membership in the NIC.
• All brothers in FMA like to think of FMA as a unique fraternity experience.

That's my take on it, at least.

Really? How common is that?

If it is common, why do some socials join other organizations (greek and non) and run for EC positions (president in particular :rolleyes: )? Knowing that they can't commit. This is what I mean about non-socials not being taken seriously.

There is no reason why a person wouldn't be able to commit to both. During her collegian days, my chapter's Scholarship Advisor was Risk Managment Coordinator for AGD, President for Pi Sigma Phi, and also involved with Order Of Omega. It's all about prioritizing and time management.

While I can't speak for others I know that clubs do not take near the same amount of my time as my fraternity. I'm currently only holding one office outside my fraternity (it's kind of a double office though) as senator for the Public Relations Student Society of America.

I can tell you that I will represent the PRSSA to the best of my abilities. However, if I find I no longer have the time for both organizations, it will be PRSSA that gets dropped.

I've without a doubt (and I've belonged to a few organizations) I've seen more GDI's run for an office and then just not show up or do a horrible job than I've seen greeks.

I'd say that behavior is more reflective upon the individual than it is the system as a whole (even if it is repetative). You'll see non-greeks exhibit the same behavior (they resumé pad also).

If your organization doesn't feel the officers take it seriously, vote them out of office. If not then you must believe that there is no one else that can do as good a job as them.

LHT
Kevin

I can't imagine HOW much work someone would have to be putting into their social GLO to have NO time for other organizations! My chapter's constitution required each member to be in at least one other campus organization, and many of us were a lot more involved than that - including people with very big offices.

One of our sisters was a double major (engineering and music) and took double the normal course load. She was an RA in a dorm, a VP in the chapter, and in all sorts of campus musical and musical theater groups. She is just one example, of course, but she was typical of how involved people were - successfully.

I would say that at ECU, if asked how many fraternities and sororities, the average person would say 16 IFC and 9 NPC and I think all 9 NPHC...things have changed since I was in school!

I think why we do not consider service groups, music groups and so on in that is b/c we belong to the same governing bodies, function under the same regualtions and numbers and membership selection and requirements. IFC/NIC, NPHC, and NPC have relationships and work together on issues and such...

We did have a local and they were part of ECU Panhellenic but were still not considered a full on sorority b/c of the lack of requirments nationally and locally.

If you ask me, I guess we all are Greeks, but there are different levels. Since I was never in anyting other than an NPC group I do not know the background on other sororities...so I cannot say how similiar they are...

But if you want to talk what the general public thinks....well, when 20/20 does a story they usually try to go after IFC/NIC/NPHC/NPC groups...maybe b/c they generally think of those groups as the most accepted as Greeks...not real sure on that.

I have no problem with social GLO members joining APO. But, a lot of them are very committed to their social GLO, leaving less room for us. I enjoy having them as members ONLY, they are a good asset. However, I think it is unfair for them to have EC positions, when there are members who put APO as first priority (when it comes to organizations). We have had a past president suddenly resign, because she was overcommitted.
Because of that, our chapter progress backslid (we were working on our charter then).

ktsnake is definately right! It's not just the social greeks that can be under-committed to non-social GLO's and other organizations. Seniors, athletes, professional greeks, full-time workers, and commuter students also have trouble with commitment to our GLO.

In response to TrojanGirl's comment on "Some Sinfonians have gone social" I wanted to share this info. The entire fraternity is officially registered with the Federal Government as being social. Some people might not feel comfortable with this but the facts can be undisputed. At the last province 32 workshop, the National President, Dr. Darhyl Ramsey, said that the National Fraternity is under discussion and is making a move to join the NIC. Currently there are several chapters throughout the nation that are on their own IFCs at their campuses. Experience at these chapters has shown that recruiting is better increased. At one of the chapters, I can't think of the state, the president of the IFC is a brother of Phi Mu Alpha. The fraternity is officially social. In 1992 there was a Title IX response letter that ended the initiation of women, a practice that was challenged with Title IX for a short period in the late 70s, and was used to officially register the fraternity with the Federal Government as being "social". As a social order the fraternity could prevent women from joining. The roots of the fraternity were social(refer to the original objects)but it wasn't until 1982 that it became official with the government.

The affiliation with music is better understood when we look at the foundations of the Order. The fraternity began at the New England Conservatory at a time when it was predominately women. The Chancellor/Bursor, brother Ossian E. Mills, of the Conservatory, who was not a professional musician, wanted to establish a social Order that would unite the few men that were there and develop a brotherhood.

In response to life saver's comment I wanted to share that we accept all majors, we're stated as social in our constitution, and we do have socials as well as affiliate with other Greek organizations. We had a member of Phi Kappa Sigma come in to one of our meetings this semester and propose a battle of the bands event that would be sponsored by both groups this Fall. The Alpha Phi girls that we serenaded at a trip to New Orleans loved us for singing to them and the Kappa Kappa Gamma girls we serenaded at our booth during University Day were appreciative. We also serenaded random women at the Union and presented flowers during Valentine's Day. That was a lot of fun. We've also been involved with homecoming. We appoint a representative to run for the Royal Court and design a float just like everyone else. If you ever considered our fraternal Order to be professional then you've just been one of the many that have given in to a popular misconception. Yours Truly, Mystic Cat32

Mystic Cat81 You're Correct
 

That is correct Mystic Cat81...I checked this one out with Dr. Darhyl Ramsey, our National President. If you join Phi Mu Alpha then you cannot join any other Social GLO. The reason there have been people that have done it is because a lot of people including brothers have thought that we're professional when we're not.

Re: Mystic Cat81 You're Correct
 

LOL! I thought you were talking to yourself at first! :D

Anyways, back on topic...........

Mystic Cat: I don't know how he got around doing this but he told me that he could because phi mu alpha is a social fraternity and mu phi epsilon is a professional fraternity.

Anne Marie

The Sinfonian chapter at Delta State in Mississippi is a member of the local IFC. They have done very well as a chapter and have only benifited from being in IFC. They are interesting in the fact that they are also the only multi-racial social GLO on campus. I believe they were also the first chapter to go truely "social" on campus (and joing IFC).

Just a question.. what is NIC? I know IFC and NPC and NPHC, but NIC eludes me.

TG

That is correct DZtubagirl, you can be in another GLO just as long as it is not social. NIC is the National Interfraternity Council. I think that that's correct but I could be wrong. Another comment made earlier about the name given to GLO's that are not members of Panhellinic, National Panhellinic, or IFC is "Independents".

Actually, it is the North-American Interfraternity Conference, the national/international version of a campus IFC.

Sorry to confuse you, Dionysus. My esteemed brother Mystic Cat32 and I didn't set out to have such similar names. "A most mysterious mystery is our mighty mystic cat." ;)

I really think that it depends on what campus you are on. At my school, there is a Ceres chapter. They have social events and are a social sorority, however, none of the fraternities have events with them. They are even on our panhellenic, which they fought for 2 years, but they rarely attend meetings there and they do not participate in ANY greek events, except Greek week and then they only participate in one or two events, not all of them. So that is why many IFC, NPC groups do not acknowledge them. There is also a chapter of DO and Phi Mu Alpha. They are not very social, except with each other. Some of my chapter sisters are also in DO and have told me that they haze and do rush, they have initiation and ritual, but they only have two social events a year and mostly they don't do a lot with any other greek orgs except Phi Mu Alpha. Neither org wears any letters, although a few members carry ID Holders or keychains with letters and there is one caron campus with a license plate. But it has already been proven on many campuses they are very active and very prominent.
I don't consider any of the honorary orgs I am in greek though. I am in three greek letter honorary orgs and you would never know it because none of them do anything except initiation.
Sarah

I think that you're right, ilovemyglo/sarah -- it depends on what campus you are on. That said, a FMA chapter that doesn't even wear letters?! I never heard of such a thing. Sounds a little lame -- somebody needs to wake those guys up.

ilovemyglo-

You have DO's in your chapter?!?!?!?!?!

I'm a DO and we were always told that we were not allowed to be in any other social greek organization, which ended up being a major source of tension for me, since I'd always wanted to go through Rush and was very, very unhappy that I was not permitted to! I know it's for sure in our chapter by-laws (something I tried to get changed while I was Prez) but I have been told it's in our International By-laws as well.

On my campus the music greek orgs (DO, Phi Mu Alpha, and Tau Phi Lambda-local) tend to stick together mostly because we are not welcomed as "equal greeks" by the NIC and NPC chapters on campus (ie. we are not invited to participate in Greek Week, not invited to socials, we are turned down when we invite them to socials, etc.) Well at least not a few years ago when I was there, maybe that's changed now, but I doubt it. All three of us are/were very active organizations both philanthropically and socially, wear our letters all the time, etc. but have had poor experiences with all but one social fraternity (Pikes, probably because half of our girls have or had boyfriends in them!) and Alpha Sigma, a local sorority.

It comes down to this, social greeks tend to think they are better than non-social ones. For obvious reasons, that I rather not get into.

On the flipside, non-social greeks also tend to think they are better than the social ones. For obvious reasons, that I rather not get into neither.

I think this is the source of the tension.

With my greek background I feel neutral. I think both can work together without either losing their "purpose". It's too bad that many on both sides don't feel that way.

BTW what is a DO?

Delta Omicron :)

I dissagree. I think, at least on my campus, it is more of a seperation of interests, and a seperation of system. The two non-"social" GLO's on my campus, APO and SAI are working in a different system, under a different paradigm, than the rest of us. There are people with duel memebership, but that is slowly dying off. The systems, which could be compatable, currently, aren't. At least here.

be it steriotypes, or just different "social circles" (A very highschool concept in my opinion) as it was once explained to me by a member of SAI who was unhappy with the memebers who were also in "social" sororities, there is something seen at least on one side, if not the other as being incompatable anymore. on my campus, we have all of 1400 students. 52% of the males are greek, 17% of the females. according to our student affairs office. Neither of those numbers includes SAI or APO. SAI and APO do not take part in the normal rushes(for obvious duel membership reasons). And outside of certain joint activites(my fraternity works with APO on the blood drive three times a year), the two systems rarely mix. But, an APO set of letters is rarely seen. APO doesn't get together outside of their activies in any noticable fasion, SAI gets togthere once a term or so, outside of meeting, to do a fundraiser. I know of one set of SAI teeshirts, that were made, and worn on occasion by the members of SAI. They are not cohesive groups here. And anyone with duel membership is MUCH more loyal to their other greek membership.

The resentment comes in when One of the two systems try's to overstep into what the other consideres their teritory. Greek week is a great contentment around here. There are no clear boundries. Who is allowd to do what? The social systems are big into philanthropy, so apo shouldn't get mad when the fraternities end up doing a large number of the MS walks, heart disease gatherings.

In the end, I don't think it is one system feels they are better than the other. Just different. there are a few IN the system who might feel this way, but the systems themslves, as a whole, see it differently.

M.
Sigma Nu
Knox College

I assume it varies from college to college.

At some schools, I've actually heard non-social greeks said derogatory things about social ones and vice versa. It's a little bit more than a separation of interests.

"An APO set of letters is rarely seen. APO doesn't get together outside of their activities in any noticable fashion. They are not cohesive groups here."

Wow, on my campus and the neighboring ones, we wear our letters. We very often get together outside our activities. Were pretty cohesive. We also do interchapter mixers. As I said earlier it varies from campus to campus.

When it comes to boundaries:

*Service mixing, for example working together on philanthropies and blood drives-OK

*Social mixing, too much liability can play into that-AGAINST

*Non-socials participating in Greek Week, as long as they pay the fees, I see no problem. If so, the name needs to be changed-NEUTRAL

*Socials taking EC positions in non-socials-AGAINST

*At HBCUs, non-NPHC's doing stepshows, I see nothing wrong with either-NEUTRAL

DeltaTheta: That is how my school was. We say that 10% is greek and that only means, NPC, NPHC, and IFC. APO, you do see the letters but I never heard of much in the way of social events, unless it was a formal or cocktail party. SAI and the rest of music, honors, service and major related greeks were rarely heard from. That could be that we did travel in different circles and neither group paid attention to each other...

We did have a member of KD and SAI and she did say they had ritual and everything else like the NPC groups, but I guess since our campus governing bodies are different and national governing bodies are different then we never really considered anyone out side of the 10% greeks...does that make sense?

Now, we did have Gamma Sigma Sigma and they had socials with a perticualr fraternity...not sure how that works, and they still had them at the fraternity houses which no NPC group did...another source of tention...And with them they did try to join Panhellenic and I think we told them it was an open meeting but it was for NPC groups and since we are governed by such different regualtion that they could particiapte but not be a member...kind of an associate member, like a local would. Plus since the intake process is so different it was hard to relate. It was my understanding that they couldn't deny membership on any basis...is that right? Now there is another service sorority too and I am not sure how that is going!

But on the other side, NPHC groups are governed differently and we still consider all 3(NPC, IFC, NPHC) groups Greek....I think we even have an ALL GREEK Council now with NPC, NPHC & IFC.

I do not think anyone thinks that they are better, just different with different oppurtunities.

Very unfortunately, that is right. National service orginizations like APO and GSS, cannot formally deny membership to anyone. I used to be dead against exclusitivity, but now I'm for it. Next to non-committment, it is a big problem (at least in my org). Within the last year and a half we have had everything from thieves, to a male brother grabbing a female brother in a chokehold, to lesbian love triangles. Just flat-out drama.
All of that could've been prevented if we denied membership to certain boneheads. :rolleyes:

Of course informally we can deny membership. For example, mysteriously "losing" their application at intake/rush, keeping them out of the loop on projects and get-togethers, and if they still don't get the hint some mysterious person takes their name off our chapter listerv. :D :D :D

Wow! I just can't get over how anti-social the professional/service orgs at some of your schools are! At my school it seemed like we (the music orgs) would have socials a couple times a month, whether it be just an internal thing or with other organizations. I guess it really does vary from school to school, though.

As far as crossing territories... I think a lot of times service or professional orgs are pigeon-holed. For example, I am a member of a music sorority (Delta Omicron) but I wasn't a music major or minor.... I just liked music, and our rush came before the Formal Rush for the NPC sororities on our campus, and from then on I was not permitted to Rush another sorority on my campus because of our by-laws, something I desperately wanted to do. But whenever we tried to participate in a philanthropy that wasn't related to music, we'd get shot down for trying to do something that only "real greeks" were supposed to do. Very frustrating. Simply because we have mention of music in our founding, that's the only thing we're capable of doing? It just doesn't seem right.

Sorry, I'm ranting a bit... I know it's a local problem, but I would like to see it prevented at other campuses.....

Well...
 

Lexi, you attended ECU, right...so I know which GSS chapter you're talking about.

Since I'm a member of Gamma Sig...that's not totally correct. The only way someone could be denied membership in our sorority is if that person did not complete the prescribed hours of service that's required for a MIT, which is 10 nationally. Other than that, anyone who wanted to join Gamma Sig could do so. However, I, like Dionysus, am an advocate for exclusivity for reasons like that-non-committed members and those members who, more often than not, try to use Gamma Sig as a stepping stone to get into another sorority. This is rampant amongst those trying to gain membership in NPHC sororities that smile upon perspectives that do a lot of service. Also, GSS chapters recieve a lot of comments such as "you're not a real sorority because you let anybody in" or "all I have to do is do 10 hours and that's it". Don't think we don't have an intake process-and it involves a whole lot more than just doing 10 hours of service. We do have additional requirements.

Sadly, that IS the sentiment-because those greeks that do belong to a council say they ARE better than those of us who don't belong. It may not be at every school, but that attitude is there.

Now at my chapter, we participate in a lot of stuff so we can get our name out there. As I've said before, if we have an event we invite other greeks to come out and support. If the greeks want us to participate in something we're doing, they INVITE us and we'll do it then. We don't try to "get in where we fit in". Wherever we can help, we help, but we're not so desperate to fit in that we're trying too hard to be greek. We go as we are, we go as what we are, and we have a great attitude about who we chose to be-Gamma Sigs. Everyone else can take it or leave it.