Sailorchic, you bring up a very real point here.

Many chapters fear that if they extend a bid to a homosexual gentleman then they will lose a lot of other rushees.

When we do Rush, we are marketing ourselves to guys a year (or less) out of high school. Typically they are not as "enlightened" as we claim to be:D .

On one level you would say this should not effect the bid extending process in any way (at least for this specific reason).. But it most certainly does in many chapters.

Does this in fact occur? Not in my experience. It has really had little if any effect on one of the houses on my campus that experienced this. They are still #1 for amount of members and have continued to have large pledge classes.

It however is still a huge fear. Think back to high school and you and your peers' views on homosexuality, those are the folks we're trying to recruit -- so you might imagine this is a real fear.

The fraternity is first and foremost a brotherhood based on shared core of beliefs. However, it is also a business and we have to keep our membership at a certain level in order to meet our expenses.

I think that what others have said saying that eventually this will become a more and more accepted part of our culture is true. However, with change there are always growing pains, always people that resist it.

For the prospective rushee, if it is presented in the right light I think it is a huge positive rather than a negative. It shows to them that we consider brothers to be brothers, no matter what. We may have our differences but that does not override the fraternal intent of our fraternity.

Probably 20 years from now this will not be as much of a factor, but right now it is. This is a very interesting discussion.

LHT
Kevin

OKAY, I am a white Male in A White Orgsanization!

I do not want any Blacks, Asians, Gays, Jews, or anyother type of peson I feel offensive by in My Group of people!

That is my choice!!!!!!!!!!

That means I should not be on this site as that is all that there is on this site!

Can You Tell me what color or for that fact anyone else is on this site by reading their posts!

I had a young lady I was talking to on the phone after a breif concersation, ask me if I knew she was Black!
No I did not, she talked as white as I did!
Did I know one was Asian, NO she talked as white as I did!
Did I know one was Gay, NO he talked like I did!

Hell he is a Gay Rodeo Bull Rider! Is that tuff or what?

I talk Bull, I throw Bull, and I even fought Bull in Mexico! ( 4 ) about took my Balls off! All of them, I am not a good Bull Fighter!

I am afraid of Bulls with long horns, but not my freinds on this site!

Well My $2.50 worth, I am a big spender on site!:D

Tom...sorry but that confused me? Can you explain?

I figured this was going to cause a little stir. Some of you guys talk like im a gay hater who's looking for the next matthew shepard to beat up. We have a difference of opinion. Just because I wouldn't want a gay Sigma Chi doesn't mean im a homophob. I may not approve of their lifestyle but its their thing, im not going to hate them because of it. I just don't feel they deserve to be in my fraternity is all. So unless your a sigma chi you can't tell me im wrong. Your not going to change how I feel on this matter either. You say im wrong but what makes you think your not wrong???? And don't say that being diverse in race and sexual orientation is the same thing because its not.

Geez... Generalize much??

My grandfather is a deacon in a southern baptist church in Alabama and he plays cards every weekend. Um, maybe you shouldn't speak so freely about something you know nothing about.
Just like any other denomination, different people interpret things in different ways. Southern Baptists, even in Alabama, are no different.
I'm not offended by what you said, because I think you were a) trying to be funny and b) speaking in ignorance. But I think that it might behoove you to think before you speak...or type, as the case may be.

I am gay and joined Lambda Chi Alpha thirty years ago, although I didn't choose to come out until after I graduated. We now have over 600 initiates and I'm the president of our alumni association. Virtually every brother knows I'm gay and yet we still work together to get things done. Only two brothers, who are very religious, say homosexuality is a sin in their minds. And even the three of us get along quite nicely.
The other 600+ couldn't care less whether I'm gay or not. I don't know what the concensus of the active chapter would be regarding a new Associate Member coming out to them today. Every chapter of every fraternity changes every few years regardless.

I do know of a brother at another chapter who was the VP and wanted to come out. I advised him via e-mail the best I could. He was very apprehensive (in his words, 'shaking like a leaf'), but he did it at a meeting. When he was done telling them, the brothers sat there in stunned silence until one stared clapping. Then they all joined in, and finally stood up and gave him a standing ovation. After the meeting, a bunch of them took him out to dinner. I'm not saying this will happen everywhere.

Lambda Chi Alpha is ostensibly a Christian-based fraternity like many others, but we are not clergy by any means. We also have alot of Jewish brothers. A fraternity is not meant to be a religious sect, but rather a brotherhood, and brotherhood transcends many things.

Bigots are a dime a dozen, but a good fraternity is for life.

Good luck.

Jono

For the last statent, I applaud you. I still draw contention with your belief that its a lifestyle. But thats a societal view, shared by others as well.

sorry you feel attacked. That wasnt my intent at all. Opinions arent right or wrong, they are opinions, and have no inherent value. Just like the sky, its not right or wrong, its just there. But by your above statement, you say that you are really only willing to debate the issue with other sigma chis. I could assume this is beacuse you would like to delve deeper into the teachings of your org, which dont belong on a public board. I can respect that. But I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that if you debated the issues with a broad cross section of your brothers and alumni, you just might find that their opinions mirror those on this board. I would encourage you to facilitate that debate the next time the opportunity affords itself. All parties could only learn from the debate, and isnt that how we all grow and become better memebrs of our orgs and society?





I dont think anyone can change anyones opinions online. I have been debating in an attempt to understand why you believe what you believe. You put it out there, so I have the right to question it. I like the debate. As several people have said before, this is the first good debate on GC in some while. At least its diffent from the usual "what sorority is best on your campus" debate we often see here.

Quote:

And don't say that being diverse in race and sexual orientation is the same thing because its not.

In a previous post, you said:

Quote:

Hey, i think im going to stop being gay from today on cause you can't. ....You can repent and apologize for doing something detremental, but like I said you can't say, "Hey im sorry for being gay, I won't do it again."

How can you acknowledge that its something a person cant change, yet still say its not descrimination and its not the same as race issues, which is about the belief that it is of "something someone is unable to change;" race, gender, sexual orientation, nationalilty, place of birth, or disability.

I like what damasa said about it as diversity as well.

I would like to state for the record, that I am not a political correctness type person. I am actually republican,and quite conservative. I used to believe diversity was not important, then moved to south texas where no race is a large majority. Saw how groups from many backgrounds had to work together to get anythig accomplished. It was quite cool, and wouldnt trade my experiences for the world.

As for me I just believe that, while I havent been through your ritual, just my own, I believe that we (as greeks) have a lot of simular traits and have more in common than not. People of many different walks (including gays) have a place at the greek table, and within our organizations. 50 years ago people were raising the same objections about minorities and non-christians entering our orgs, and not only did it not destroy us, it greatly imporved us as orgs.

While you work with some gay dudes, and I dont know what they are like, please dont make the same mistake I did and assume that all gays are the same. They are just like you and me, and more often than not, you cant tell. I would hate for any of the following things happen to you or any greek house; 1. Theres a rumor or suspicion that a PNM is gay. A house passes him up and he wasnt. All parties miss out then. 2. A house passes on a PNM whom they know is gay, he joines another house and becomes one of the best brothers they have - student leader, great brother, etc. Then you miss out. Finally 3, You have a current brother come out and his friends and brothers turn their back on him, or you have a current brother live his life in fear, knowing hes different, hearing statements thrown around, hating himself because he knows he is what his best friends and brothers think doesnt deserve to be in the fraternity. To me, thats fear and hatred. And it destroys people. Thats the absolute LAST thing we as greeks stand for.

To quote UNFSigmaChi:

"I just don't feel they deserve to be in my fraternity is all. So unless your a sigma chi you can't tell me im wrong. Your not going to change how I feel on this matter either. You say im wrong but what makes you think your not wrong???? And don't say that being diverse in race and sexual orientation is the same thing because its not."

So what's wrong with that? A lack of reason or reasons.

Words like "they" and "deserve" as used in the first sentence above are indicative of the attitude that bothers me. I believe that they show a basic lack of respect. Perhaps they aren't meant to, but they do to me.

When I was trained as a diversity instructor for a national television network, we were taught by definition that diversity includes race, religion, national origin, age, gender and sexual orientation, among other things. Are they the same things? Maybe not, but they're still part of diversity.

Do I have to be a member of Sigma Chi to understand that some people may be misinformed or possibly incorrect? I don't think so.

A chapter may decide not to include gay members if they want to, but no matter how you look at it, that's discrimination -- just as surely as if it chose not to include blacks or Asians or other identifiable group. No matter what the reason -- religious or otherwise.

I'm not interested in changing his mind. I don't have the time or energy for that. I simply don't like what appear to me to be irrationalities in the argument.

Finally, the contraction for "you are" is "you're" -- not "your." Am I being picky? Well, it is part of our language. You're entitled to your opinion on that. See, there is a difference.

I hope that I can be helpful here...

In my fraternity, we have had guys who have "come out" after pledging and after initiating. It was hard, because we didn't want to become known as "the gay fraternity", and we all know how important image is on any campus. But rather than run from the issue, we decided to discuss it as adults and as college students. We actually had a speaker come in to our house who made a fictional movie about his experience as a closeted SAE while he was in school. He was the popular guy with a "secret" (God, that SO sounds like a Lifetime movie!). The movie is called "Defying Gravity" and it is available at www.wolfevideo.com. Afterwards, he talked about what it was like to be in the closet at school, and how afraid he was that his brothers would not accept him. My own personal thought is that your sexuality is your business, and that who you choose to be with is between you and that person (or persons). As long as you love yourself, then being gay or even being in a GLO is no big deal-college is still great without it. Just don't compromise who you are and be unhappy for four or more years just because you want to "Go Greek". Be yourself, because college life is only a SMALL part of your whole life, and you'll still be able to make lifelong friends no matter if you are in a GLO or not, and that is what really matters. By the way, I know that it really matters where you are located in terms of your openness (let's face it, if you are in the South or in a small town-then it's going to be difficult).

GOOD LUCK!!!!

I don't have the experience yet, as we don't have openly gay members in our charge but I believe the situation also depends on where you are pledging.
For some "liberal" states, like New York or California, being gay and greek is acceptable. It will be different for some Greek houses in more "traditional" states to pledge gay.

About being gay and having big white cross pin on the chest, I don't think that matters. Hey, Christians are for everyone, and if you believe in Jesus, and you're gay, so what? Can you proudly shown both on you? Christians started from one group (race), and now, you can see every ethic groups, including whites (and gays!), believe and accept Jesus as their savior.

Personally, I encourage everybody to go Greek, gay or straight. Like everyone else mentioned, Greek is not all about sex orientation, nor religion.

Just my .2 cents ;)

LexiKD, no I cannot explain my post as it was kind of a thing between a Brother and myself who I have come to respect and revere as a Brother and a Freind!

While I had to explain the Bull Rider thing last night to him, He Said Ah Ha I see!

That is also a private thing, sorry!
I still respect him as a Brother and a Man who is and will be my friend!

As you may know some of my posts are disjointed, Some for some strange reason understand them!:D

But,-------! Hell lost train of thought!

See one day you to will get Mature ( I do not use old )!

I cannot explain why One of my Brothers is Gay any more than I can explain Why some of My Brothers are Black!

They are themselves and are still my Brothers, Come Hell Or even High Water!

They are People. If you think the Lesbians are Different than Gay Guys DA!

Many thought that the Deciples were Gay cause they Hung with a long bearded and long haired guy!
Sound familiar?


J nice post Bro!

Love Ya Man!

Got it Tom! Sorry for the confusion....

LexiKD. Still love ya sweety!

I have been damn dissapointed that KD left my campus after 2 years! I thought they had a good chance of making it on a tuff Campus!

Hell, I dont know what happened and neither di the Greek Advisor, well she is living with a Sig Ep. Tells it all for me!

I hope they come back and look once again!:)

Although I would love to think KD can and will make it everywhere...it all boils down to membership selection and alum support. Sometimes it is't meant to be!

Too bad I guess, but thanks!

Our LXA are pretty cool at ECU, they have been a little weak some years back (house was falling apart) but are working on their house and have pledged some great guys...at least that is what I hear, I'm so far away I get bits of info! They were always a top group!

Now see, that is a generalization that is not necessarily true. I live in California, and I attend a University that is very conservative, upper-middle class Anglo-Saxon, Republican types. Basically, it's very white and rich. And I'm neither! But we have gay brothers in my fraternity and in others as well. They are not all out, but apparantly those who know, know. But it depends on the TYPES of students that attend that particular school. For instance, Duke and Vanderbilt and the University of North Carolina are in the South, and they may be as "liberal" as most California schools, because of the types of students that attend (primarily a large national base). And a school like the University of California at Berkeley, which has a large Greek community, and is known as a "Very Liberal" school-there is NO way a out homosexual could join one of the more popular fraternities-probably not at USC or UCLA either. So I really feel that the type of school (public versus private, small liberal arts college versus a school with a larger population) makes a difference. And believe me, I don't think a time will EVER come when it's looked upon as "acceptable" to pledge gay. Brothers will tolerate it, but that it the LAST bastion of acceptability in fraternity life. We can have a brother of another race, religion, ethnicity, anything else and accept that, but not homosexuality. We'll put up with it if we have to, to be politically correct, but privately, almost all brothers would probably say NO WAY if asked to answer truthfully about having an openly gay member.

Well, I guess I really made a general assumption here. Hey, phikappapsiman, do you go to Stanford, I assume? How's the Greek System there?

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi
"And by living that kind of lifestyle goes against a lot of what Sigma Chi stands for."

Sigma Chi, all due respect to your personal beliefs. But I'd like to hear your Executive Council's opinions on Gay men in Sigma Chi. Do you know what their stance is? or are you just speaking on your behalf. Because truthfully??? I'm sure the man that started this thread would never consider Sigma Chi (which I'm sure is ok with you)...but also may not consider some other Greek organizations.

I would suggest to everyone to check out their national organizations stance on non-discrimination. Tri Sigma does not discriminate on any basis, does your organization (I'm speaking to all...not picking on you Sigma Chi)? It might be something good to know in this day and age, especially in regards to membership selection.

food for thought.

from what I've seen
 

Yeah, I do...Stanford is not a real "Greek" school. We have 6 housed fraternities, 3 housed sororities, 5 unhoused fraternities, 3 unhoused sororities, 3 BGLO fraternitiess, and 2 BGLO sororities. It used to be big up until the 70's, when I guess that it wasn't "cool" to be in a GLO. And it has never recovered. Our Residential Education Department is really anti-greek, because of all of the negative sterotypes about GLO's (that we are racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-women, you know the rest). So, it's almost impossible for a new chapter to come onto campus, and once one is kicked off for whatever reason, it's gone for good. Some of the "big" fraternity houses are really into image and getting the "right" members (SAE's got Fred Savage of "The Wonder Years" and I think that Tiger Woods went to Sigma Chi before he left Stanford), but really, there are other row-type houses that offer just as much to to to some people that they figure, "Why go Greek"? The Bay Area is SO expensive in terms of off-campus housing that almost all undergraduates choose to live on campus (Hell, even Chelsea Clinton lived on campus all of her time here, although I don't think that she joined a sorority). All in all, we will never be confused with a big state school where either you "Go Greek, or don't go", but those of us in the Greek system enjoy it.

Well, we do have one openly gay brother in our chapter ( we are in SF for goodness sake!) Supposedly some of our founding fathers of our chapter were gay, but that has not been confirmed for me. Some brothers have a problem with it, other do not. What I want to know is if it is acceptable to date other brothers or not?

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi
Its not necesarily that I hate gay people..i mean hey i work at TGI Fridays in Florida, its like gay server central,
So are you saying that people that work at Fridays are gay? My aunt is a manager there, and she isnt. I LOVE how youre steriotyping... that must mean that if a guy is in the band, or dances, or acts that he IS gay, since youre saying that the people at Fridays are... *shrug*

but according to the ideals and values of which my Fraternity stands, I know that gay men shouldn't be allowed.
Again, does your ritual say IN WRITING that gays arent allowed? Then Im sorry, they are permitted... and thats also a form of discrimination, which hmmm... is a no-no.

I have met a couple gay sigma chi's and i've told them that since they are initiated I have to treat them as a brother, but i wish they hadn't been initiated and don't feel they are following our founders principals.
*claps* bravo! Youve just won my idiot award! How can you say you are a upstanding member of your org, when you openly tell your BROTHERS that you basically hate them? And can I say one word= HOMOPHOBIC. You are insecure in your sexuallity arent you?

And yes if I found out that one of my pledges were gay I would expell them.
Well then you may be losing a really great member.

I also feel that a gay Sigma Chi would not and can not represent my Fraternity well.
How? You arent representing your fraternity well at the moment.

Now if your organization's ritual allows gay men or women that is fine, but not mine. I know im going to get blasted by people, but you have no idea what my fraternity stands for so don't tell me that I am wrong.
I know that your org most likely stands for tolerance and acceptance since thats what most greek orgs are based on- compassion and acceptance... hmmm

There is a gay Chi Phi at my school who I had to work with when i was in IFC who did a lot for his Fraternity, but he also caused them a lot of grief for being gay and it hurts their rush every semester as well.
I applaud my grandfathers fraternity for being so up-to-date and caring about character and not about what a person is or isnt. If someone says "I wont join a fraternity cos theres a gay guy in it" then you dont want him anyway.


What i meant by that is sigma chi has very strong christian backgrounds...
Gluttony is a sin. Binge drinking is gluttony. If we want to be strict biblical people here, we can say that most of us are sinners... and there fore you need to not be in your org if it is so tightly christian based.

And christianity doesn't except homosexuality.
this sentance makes no sense. Its ACCEPT - meaning to be okay with, not EXCEPT.

We should all accept and promote diversity...afterall sigma chi's spirit says men of different temperments, talents and convictions.
Re-read what you wrote. Think about it. Read it again. Think more. Youre a hypocrite.

But accepting gays into Sigma Chi is taking that spirit too far from what the founders intended it to mean.
Were you there at the founding? Or are you a founder reincarnated? Did you have a seance so you could talk to them? Did they deal with this back then? Im sure they didnt say.."Hmm, in the 1990's it will be more accepted (theres that word again!) to be homosexual- so we need to write in our ritual- NO GAYS"

And as far as affecting rush...here at UNF where the greek community represents 1% of the student population, it does hurt your rush to have an openly gay greek person in your Fraternity. Rushee's see this or hear about this and don't want to be apart of the now stereotyped "gay fraternity." Now at huge colleges where greek life is 30%+ then i could understand it not being that big of a problem during rush, but unfortunatly here it is.
If people really care about which is the "gay" fraternity, then you dont need them. Clarion has a small greek pop too and I could care less what sexual orientation someone has.


Phi Sigma Sigma was, is and always will be based upon acceptance, tolerance and diversity. We strive to attain our goals, and we TEACH acceptance. We are told to look at women for what theyve accomplished, and who they are... not who they like, the color of their skin or their financial backgrounds!!!!!!


-Ignorance and intolerance are the two deaths of our society-

Wow .. such an old thread :) Always fun to see old topics still continuing be discussed!

Ya'll are making this issue (well by ya'll I mean just a certain few) to be 2-dimensional.

It's not a yes/no thing... there are all kinds of different things that play into it.

Moral values is one thing! I'll go out on a limb and say that if someone thinks the behavior is deviant than to them it is! For you to tell them that it's not is a little bit self righteous.

Respect people's values.

Next up... As I was saying this thing has MANY dimensions... Where you might say "If someone wouldn't join the house because there was a gay fella in it we wouldn't want them anyway..." BS!

First off, if that fella's values reflect that of the chapter than why not!?

Secondly, we have to be competetive during Rush. It's a very competitive time and the reality is whether you like it or not this stuff can really hurt you.

Remember you're not dealing with sophisticated people during rush. Typically they are 18-19 year olds fresh out of Highschool. They have a preconcieved notion of what they want in a fraternity. If your house doesn't resemble what they want there are usually lots of other places that do!

While PERSONALLY, I see not a damned thing wrong with it. I'd be proud to have someone as a brother as long as they have the character and the bearing worthy of my organization. As long as they take it seriously.... I also see that it's not just that simple.

It's all very simple. The brothers who are most devoted, put in the most time, and give the most money, are gay. The straight ones do a little bit here and a little bit there, but have other priorities; most we never hear from again, especially when alumni. Sad but true.

There are some exceptions.


Jono

Right on Sigma Chi
 

To the gay guy who posted this thread dont pledge TKE!!!!!!
We dont want you!!!!!!!
To The Sigma Chi Guy, I know we have had differnces in the past, but you are right on this one. It would make me damn uncomfortable to have a Gay Frater. How am I supposed to trust some dude thats a flamer to take me home when I am drunk and passed out? That dude could be trying to F-me. I know yall are gonna have the argument that not all gay guys want to jump on all straight guys.........But thats bullsh*t. They are guys, they will make a move at some point.
And I also agree with Kap sig guy, that if yall where really liberal, you would respect guys homophobic opinions on this.
I mean most guys arent gonna want a Homo in their chapter......He would not be accepted into mine that is for sure. We have the right to refuse anyone we want......Why shouldnt we? I think that this is even a subject on hear is a travesty to the United States, and the Greek Community. We are so inundated with all this crap about accepting homos for this and that. Half of this crap is MTV, and all the other liberal press that is shuved down our throats........I hate it......I can except gays, just not in my fraternity.........IM sorry I dont care what yall think. Even if my fraternitys IHQ standards accept them, our chapter will not!!!!!!!!

PS. I am not a WASP, I am Catholic. (Do not insert priest joke)

So are you saying that people that work at Fridays are gay? My aunt is a manager there, and she isnt. I LOVE how youre steriotyping... that must mean that if a guy is in the band, or dances, or acts that he IS gay, since youre saying that the people at Fridays are... *shrug*

So your aunt works at MY TGI Friday's....hmmm well unless your aunt had a sex change in the last year all the managers here are dudes. Jacksonville is the largest city in the US(land wise) so we have a lot of gay people in the city which happens to have a lot of servers at my store i work at.

Again, does your ritual say IN WRITING that gays arent allowed? Then Im sorry, they are permitted... and thats also a form of discrimination, which hmmm... is a no-no.

Don't we all discriminate...does your chapter accept everyone that rushes...cause if not then gee thats discrimination. I don't care if its cause they said something wrong, looked like a dork, too fat, too skinny, bad personality..whatever your excuses are thats discrimination. My chapter chooses men based on our jordan standard and one part of it is men posessed of good morals...and if I don't believe being gay is morally right then who are you to tell me that I shouldn't vote against him. Its my chapter, my Fraternity, not yours!!!!

You are insecure in your sexuallity arent you?

no im not actually. I have to work and talk with gay people remember...now if i was insecure why would I work in a place where about 30% of the employees were gay?!?! I just believe its not morally right and if they ask me how I feel about them being gay i tell them that.

Well then you may be losing a really great member.

Don't know how phi sigma sigma does things, but we here at Sigma Chi try to base our bid process on our founders written beliefs in membership are.

How? You arent representing your fraternity well at the moment.

Are you a Sigma Chi?!?!?! Then how dare you tell someone they aren't representing their Fraternity well. Especially based off of certain beliefs of mine. Do you knwo what my ritual is or know anyting about my Fraternity? I would never tell someone they aren't representing their org well based on a personal belief.

this sentance makes no sense. Its ACCEPT - meaning to be okay with, not EXCEPT.

Thats probably why im not an english major. Oh ya...and pointing out people's grammar mistakes is very very lame.

Were you there at the founding? Or are you a founder reincarnated? Did you have a seance so you could talk to them? Did they deal with this back then? Im sure they didnt say.."Hmm, in the 1990's it will be more accepted (theres that word again!) to be homosexual- so we need to write in our ritual- NO GAYS"

No i wasn't at the founding but I am one of the few undergradates on our HQ ritual committee so i think i know a bit about my ritual. Were you at your founding??? Then how do you know your founders wanted gays??? Or is that just your interpretation of your founders teachings???? I don't know much about your org so i'll let you answer that one....maybe it says to accept gays in your ritual but i find that unlikely.

Like ive said before, hey if your organization accepts people who are homosexual then hey fine. But based on what I know about my organization and my moral beliefs then I don't believe its right for them to be a Sigma Chi. Thats all.

PS. KDUTC....is your real name Ivory?!?!?!?! Me likes!!!! :-) How you doin'?!?!?!?! haha

I will not get into a point by point debate, and am not interested in name calling (liberal, conservative, homophobic -- whatever).

Personally, I believe that the arguments and statements against allowing gay members are sad and misguided. That does not make the posters bad people.

By the way, though, discrimination is against the law.

Technically speaking.... homosexuals are not a protected minority under anti-discrimination laws.

No sin is greater than the other

You're right.

In some states statutes have been changed to include sexual preference and in others they haven't.

I was thinking about the following:

"Don't we all discriminate...does your chapter accept everyone that rushes...cause if not then gee thats discrimination. I don't care if its cause they said something wrong, looked like a dork, too fat, too skinny, bad personality..whatever your excuses are thats discrimination."

Which I think gives tacit "permission" to discriminate on nearly any issue. Unfortunately, in many cases, he's right.

This thread is like the movie "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly", different posts suit different categories.

Hubby's chapter of Sigma Chi had a few Jewish members and one Gay that nobody knew (for sure) until later. (He fell off a float during a Gay Pride parade and died) During the course of pledgeship, the Jewish members became known and Hubby was like-What the heck? Jewish members in a Christian fraternity?:eek: BUT, it was a question of belief systems NOT the fact that they were Jewish. It did NOT affect his ultimate feelings for his brothers. He DID find it in conflict with the basic foundation of Sigma Chi. As a fraternity, it worked, but he always wondered how they could find the same meaning in the rituals as those raised Christian.

Each chapter has their own belief system as do individuals within that chapter. What works on one campus may not on another.
Blanket statements just don't work, especially when you are dealing with issues of this nature.

I think ktsnake put it beautifully-It's not that simple.

I hope that wherever an individual ends up, they are there for the right reasons and in a situation where they can be who they really are and not "hide". Otherwise, what's the point?

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi
[Yes I feel homosexuality is a sin and that every sin is a sin no matter what it is, but unlike changing your ways on drinking, smoking, drugs etc, you can't just say Hey, i think im going to stop being gay from today on cause you can't. ]


Who are you to judge? Granted I don't understand why some people are gay, but I'm not one to judge someone by their cover! If Sigma Chi is based on Christian beliefs like you said then shouldn't you know the verse: "Judge not lest ye be judged." Maybe you should sit on that and think about it!

I don't know how I would feel about having a gay person in the sorority that I'm in, but I'm not going to judge people on their sexual orientation, b/c what they do in the bedroom is NONE of my business!

Whatever.............
 

KD girl just cause you blow a couple of TKEs doesnt mean you are a TKE. HOW DARE YOU LECTURE ME ON THE PRINCIPLES OF MY FRATERNITY! Just because you hang out with a couple of us doesnt mean you fully understand everything about our Fraternity, and it especially doesnt mean you understand my chapter, nor do you understand the mind of Men or even most Gay men. I dont know what little politically correct planet you live on, but you are naive to think that a gay man would not eventually try something like that. I mean stick up for all your gay friends you want, but dont try to say my founders would have wanted that. They where a bunch of rednecks from Illinois.
Not for wealth rank or honor, but for personal worth and character.............
Where doees that say let in Homos?
I dont sit here and talk about how some sororitys at my school exclude girls for being fat, or whores, or for low grades, and also for being gay..............I have seen that at so many different Greek systems, and with so many different National organizations.......Including your own KD girl, and I have no problem with it cause I respect their chapters decision.......It is thier chapter not mine.........So but out and say whether you would want some huge Dike in your sorority, that was always screwing up rush for yall, ruining your reputation, and also trying to hit on you twenty four seven..........
Its such a joke, yall are so hypocritical, all the sororitys never say anything about if they would want a gay girl in their sorority. Instaed yall get on hear and try to defend your Gay shopping buddies that snuck in the fraternitys in the first place. And thats all yall want, gay shopping buddies, and gay roomates, so yall have someone to talk to when Billy doesnt call you after your date...........Its so pathetic, why dont yall worry about rushing straight guys so you can keep these fraternity systems alive, I mean these guys arent gonna produce legacys, unless they fool some of yall naive women on this thread long enuff to have another gay son. Wher does this joke stop??????????? Blaise

TKEmz894,

I think maybe you should dial back on the rhetoric a little.

Your first sentence is dangerously close to slandering someone you don't know. Or maybe since it is written, it's libel. I can never remember which is which.

In any event, I think we can all make our points without using offensive buzz words like "homo" and "dike" (which is actually spelled dyke, I think).

Argue your opinion and we will agree or disagree, but argue it like an adult. More people listen to you that way.

Re: Whatever.............
 

Everything else in your message aside, I cannot believe you actually called your founders a bunch of rednecks. Was that supposed to be a compliment, as in they therefore would be against homosexuality, which in your mind is a good thing?

My sorority was a TKE little sister organization before little sis's were disbanded nationwide. For that reason if for no other I hold your organization in high regard, and I am extremely embarrassed for your brothers that you would say such a thing about your founders in a public forum.

So sue me!!!!!!!!
 

First you called me dishonorable to my organization, and to our founders.....So dont say you wherent personally attacking me, and that you are some how above my comments.Eventuallyou will find out that if you run your mouth all the time people will say mean things back to you.
Now as for sueing me do it what do you think you will get ? a broke down 78bronco........You want it come and get it......

And for the girl from Arkansas, I am sure you deal with the stigma of being a Southerner every day, and that is why you are so overly sensitive to the word Redneck........But alas you are just another case of someone outside of TKE thinking that you know so much about the fraternity that you can come after me too, when I stick up for the ideals of my fraternity.
The reason I called them Rednecks is that when they where Knights of Classic Lore, they petitioned the Phi Delta Thetas for a charter three differnet times, each time they where rejected. Why? Because the Pih Delta Thetas said they where nice guys but too country. And numerous people from interationals have reffered to them as that. So I am not hurting anyones feelings but your own misguided ones. I mean to say that because your org was started by TKE lil sis' doesnt mean you are the formost analyist on TKE history. Me being the TKE Histor for my chapter and personly knowing a great deal of older TKEs and men associated with founding over 50 of our chapters does make me somewhat of one on this thread.......SO BUTT OUT!!!!!!!!
As for Rednecks there is nothing wrong with that it just means you are country, my roomate is a redneck. He has no problem with me calling him that. Because rednecks are people who work out in the sun all day, hence the redneck, and those are the people that fed you retards......
Oh and I would like to ask this Question........
Since yall are in the south would yall let a black girl pledge?
Now dont lie on this thread to seem politically correct! My chapters (in the Deep south) answer to that is yes, we have 3 black men in our fraternity, as well as Jews, catholics,protestants, and Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans, Costa Ricans, and Peruvians! All of which would have a real problem with a Gay guy trying to pledge. So I am not being disrespectful to my founders, just to yall cause yall are ignorant and hypocrtical.........BLAISE
So who is the hypocarte

Re: So sue me!!!!!!!!
 

Actually, I just moved to Arkansas. My "misguided feelings" stem from the fact that the term redneck is a derogatory term in the English language. Country does not equal redneck. I have never before heard the word redneck used in anything but a condescending manner. Hence my embarrassment. Maybe you've heard your international officers call their founders rednecks, but was it around non-TKEs?

Also, was your question about whether I have non-white sisters directed at me? Because if so, the answer is yes, but my organization would certainly not be considered to be located in the south. Again, I just moved here. But I'm curious as to what that has to do with this discussion, as no one has indicated they feel homophobia is a caucasion only problem.

Re: Right on Sigma Chi
 

This is not the matter at hand, but you're saying that chances are most gay men will try to sodomize other men when they get the chance. But if you are passed out, doesn't that then translate into rape? Do you really think that all gay men will try to commit such an act or even willingly hit on a straight man? There are times when I'm sure they will hit on a man they think is gay but be mistaken, but to assume that they will all engage in a sexual activity with a straight man is taking it too far.

That's like me not trusting ANY guy to take me home if I'm drunk and passed out, b/c "they are guys, they will make a move at some point."

I have to say my jaw dropped when I read your reply. To be completely honest I'm disappointed in Sigma Chi that they have someone so narrow minded as you are. Do you realize what year it is?! It is 2002, it's time to get over it. Gays and Lesbians exist,

Well sorry if you think im narrow minded. Yes i know gays and lesbians exist. From what i've read they have been around since the roman era...if not longer. Still doesn't mean its morally right. I believe in my ideals and morals and try not to leave them behind to join the beliefs of the crowd. Just because someone says, "Hey its 2002 and its ok to be gay now," doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees is suddenly narrow minded. Good grief, you can tolerate and live with people if you don't agree with their lifestyle.
Maybe your the narrow minded one?!

In AOT and Ta Kala Diokomen