It's hard to define but I've always thought "blackness," sociologically, was really a mixture of cultural experience and expression, a cultural state-of-mind. Our experiences, good and bad, tend to galvanize us. Obviously, we’re diverse, with as many variations in our culture as any other -- geographically, professionally, etc., but if you’re between ages 24-40 there's a fair chance you've had someone follow you unnecessarily in a department store, or have to have dealt with, or hear about a relative/acquaintance deal with law enforcement or some other large entity, in a “less-than-desirable” manner. Experiences like these, and positive ones too IMO, contribute to this shared sense, or at least understanding, of “blackness.” And like other cultures we unite to varying degrees around historical, musical, entertainment, interests, etc…

I could quit my day job if I had a dollar for every "you sound white", or questions about the law, or question why I listen to talk radio [to find out what's going on in the world other than the "news" on MTV].

great topic!!!
 

i too have dealt with this issue and like someone else mentioned, it hurts more when you get it from your family.

for me, i think my out going spirit affords me the ability to deal with people on every level. i tend to socialize more now with people who are progressive academically and socially. it is just comfortable to me. i get annoyed with the haters who want to criticize/judge me or anyone because we speak the queen's english and have move past the 'ghetto' mentality. those folks i simply ignore because they are judgemental fools who don't have a clue.

it is a shame that we even still discuss this, but that is the reality.

i was watching c-span one night and a well-known author and washington insider (i forget her name) told a story. she mentioned that she was in a particular building in the south to do an interview and she overheard 2 maids talking. one maid said to the other "isn't that so and so?" the other maid replied with an attitude, "yeah, that's her. she thinks she something special!"

well ms. so and so approached the 2 women and said to the mean one, "excuse me, but i overheard you speaking about me and i just wanted to tell you know that you better hope that i am something special." she walked away an went on to her interview.

i think that is really how we should approach folks who want to be devisive in their comments. address it, brush them off and keep on stepping. eventually somebody will get the memo.

Although this is a serious topic, that was just hilarious. It seemed like something a runaway slave would say.

Anyway, I went to a private, majority white, elementary school and then to a mixed, public middle school. I can't even tell you how many times I have been called Brainiac for just being able to do simple multiplication in my head or for taking Algebra while others were still in remedial math courses.

In terms of unnecessary following, along with a relative being mistreated by law enforcement, I've experienced both. :mad:

....same here, I just tried to be all dignified in my presentation for the high-falutin' GC folk.


But seriously,this is a good topic. Thanks for posting the article.

No problem. It was a great topic. I would have liked to seen more depth in the article, but it's a microcosm of what a lot of people who are either in the middle class already or aspire to become a part of face.
I didn't go to a prep school in LoCal, but I was voluntarily bused out of my neighborhood. There were definitely walls between me, the kids in my area, as well as those who rode the bus with me.

Soror Steeltrap--

I feel yah... And for the other issue, I'm gonna leave it alone because I'd put my foot in my mouth...

For everyone--

There is has been a dichotomy between Africans since the slave ships sailed... The differences between house negroes and the field negroes... This is all one in the same--times may have changed but the mentality--or the cultural asilis developing the utamaawazo's have not... These reactions all of us have experienced and are recalling is the product of what enslavement does to folks. Its effects are practically hardwired into the psyche of people and to be able to be "bi-dialectical" or "trans-racial" or whatever folks call themselves these days, is to be able to cross all boundaries...

The issue is as children... Children are mean sometimes. Especially when they do not understand differences. It is part of their developmental processes to make differences--to have discriminating tastes. If it is not developed, they have severe learning disabilities. It is engrained in the educational system... As educators, we have to understand that aspect of childhood development. Many folks on GC can tell you more than I could. But, I can tell you from my own experiences, if there were trained adults present to teach the children why it is wrong to make judgements on kids who speak differently from them, then many of these issues can be averted. However, kids will tease irregardless of what the issue is... In fact they find ways to tease...

And as sad as it is to say, many kids respond to their environment with harsh, hurtful statements because they are hurting themselves for whatever reason.

On that note, one ought to take pity on an individual that does not appreciate or respect your point of view. It is to be closed-minded. And to reach a spiritual enlightening or re-birth, one cannot be closed new experiences...

How do you explain that to children who come from what they cannot begin to conceptualize? Children from the hood cannot tell you about the beautiful "Aurora Borealis", etc. But they can explain to you what happens to folks who go into "lock down"...

We can choose to highly educated and that is fine. But where we get educated about life can occur worldwide... Just that some folks get educated on the street. And that street knowledge is useful so some purposes...

Believe me, folks ought not alienate those of a lesser god... You never know when you might need them... I was forced to learn that when I was very young and suffered plenty at the hands of "Jack and Jill'ers" because I did not act "bougie" enough... What was done to me by those folks hurt more than being called the "N" word from caucasians or the ghetto-fabulous...

So now, I traverse both paths... Like Rudyard Kipling... "I can walk with kings, but not lose the common touch..."

Re: great topic!!!
 

See and I think the author (and the maids) would have been better served if she had responded "excuse me, but I overheard you speaking about me and I just wanted to tell you that you should think you are something special too!"

I think the maid's response came from insecurity (how could someone be so confident? How can someone not be beaten down by life?) while the authors comment was a "I got you told!", even if it didn't come with the head roll and finger snap and served to confirm what the maids were thinking. Sometimes I think if we know better we have to do better.

If the truth be told a whole lotta upper echelon (sp?) Black folks refuse to make eye contact with the folks low on the totem pole when passing them in the hall and only talk to their white colleagues. I'm not saying that if you are the VP of Marketing you need to hang out in the mail room, but what's wrong with saying "Hello" to people and not walking by them like your stuff don't stank?

Plus, a lot of times we do change when we are exposed to other things. For instance, I used to eat pigs feet growing up. Now, one look at them and I get sick to my stomach. A relative I was visiting offered me some one time and I politely declined. She responded "What, you too good for pig feet now?" While I could have gone into a disertation about the lack of nutritional value of pig feet, I knew underlying her comment was a perceived rejection of her and her lifestyle. She was really saying, I think, "Are you too good for me?"

Just a different spin on it....I think it is too easy (not saying you did this darling1) to dismiss the maids in the above story and others like them as mere haters with out determining what made them that way.

Re: Re: great topic!!!
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i hear what you are saying eclipse. when the author told the story that is the first thing i thought of. i personally get sick and tired of people who may not be well off financially or blessed with advanced degrees attempting to make those who have these things bad for their success and accolades. get over it! get off your behind and do something about it.

you are right, there are times in which the haves look down at the have nots; that is unacceptable as well. i just feel that based upon my experience, regardless of your circumstance, you should never give up and allow others to dictate your life. perhaps this thinking may change over time for me, but i know that i come from VERY MODEST MEANS(we was poor) but i was able to excel in school, get the best education available to me, go to a great school, work 10 years paying to get my degree (NO FAMILY SUPPORT) while dealing with a severe illness and i made it; i got that paper! i didn't allow my environment or what society felt about me to dictate my life.

i don't think its easy really to dismiss those maids or people like that. it is hard! some days you have to bite your tongue. why? because arguments or discussions that can come of it may be nothing more than folks going in a circle justifying their positions. i some days lose my patience do deal with it because i know that i don't shun people and i don't feel that i need to justify my blessings to anyone but God.

i think i am kinda ranting here :). this issue somedays just hurts my heart and now i am thinking about the fact that i will be bringing a child in a world where he/she may be subject to someone calling them 'white' because of their intellect or looking down on them because of what they may have or not have.

i just pray that i with mr. darling1 are prepared for it.

hearing it from people in the same situation
 

I remember talking to a 'friend' :rolleyes: about this same thing a while ago. She was saying that when she goes home, people from her neighborhood, her family, and people who went to her HBCU say that she acts white (she's in grad school now).

A few weeks later, she starting saying those same sort of things to me! She started criticizing the movies and TV shows I do and don't watch. She talked about me because I went on a day trip and learned how to snowboard. She even criticized me because I like smoked salmon! WTF

I know what sort of things I will like and I do them, with or without the approval of others. I don't bother with things that I know I won't like, regardless of what others think I should be interested in. I also enjoy trying NEW things to broaden my horizons. I shouldn't have to defend myself because of this.

I shouldn't need to prove that I am black. Though negative experiences are not the test of blackness, I experience racism and prejudice just as much as anyone else. I overcome it. That, I believe, is the true spirit of our race. We have come from the lowest of low and are now in some of the highest places in our society. People who think it is a virtue to stay down and out make a mockery out of the lives and deaths of our ancestors.

Though I experience the negative aspects of being black, I would like to have more experiences of the positive aspects. It is sad when we can't even be supported by our own family.

Great topic.

Blacks have been known to treat each other with disrespect.

It is a shame.

Maybe one day they will learn to realize success is not dictated by color, but by achievement.

...to be fair, I think all groups do this sort of cultural strafication. I think this thread is just more acute becuase we're discussing "us."

Well I've been told that I wasn't black b/c I don't eat chicken on the bone like "all" black people do. Don't get me wrong I eat chicken, mainly boneless chicken sandwiches or if my Mom cooks it on occasions but you should see the eyes :eek: bulging out and the gasps that I get when I tell them that. It's a shame when people associate food with your race especially when your own counterparts do it so I guess everyone that's eat chicken is black now.....I think not!

I also want to say (this may be off subject but I feel lead) as a black race ( not all of us but some of us) need to stop living in the days of Willie Lynch. Just b/c you live in a certain neighborhood or your Mom or Dad had a certain job or that you may not be able to afford college that things will always be that way, NO don't settle for less just b/c of your circumstances. "You dream BIG, You think BIG, You do BIG" that's my new motto for this year and for the rest of my life, it seems as if some African Americans aren't motivated to dream and do the necessary things to accomplish those dreams. It starts when your a child, if your child has a dream don't crush it, instead help them find the best way to make it a reality. Please, this is the worst thing you can do: tell your child to be something you wanted to be that's ridiculous, get off your sorry a$$ (that's right a$$) and reach your own goal by doing what you have to do ie. going back to school High School or College or whatever. I'm so sick and tired of hearing the white man this, the white man that and the white man always trying to hold a brotha/sista back BULL$HIT your holding yourself back by being stagnant and lazy. Once people get out of that Willie Lynch mind frame I bet all these dumba$$ questions will cease..........but until then the next time someone tries to question your "blackness" or call you a "sellout" ask them how black are you? DON"T TALK ABOUT IT! BE ABOUT IT!

This is the reason why I have such a hard time with Black folks. I was callled every name under the sun, BY OTHER BLACK PEOPLE!!! I still remember a boy in my third grade class laughing at me b/c my lips were big, and his were WAY bigger than mine. :eek:

That kind of hurt never goes away. I'm always consious of what I'm wearing, how I look, what I sound like around other Black people b/c of the criticisms I received from them growing up. And I shouldn't be and I am working on it.:(

Folks, just denounce the elusive mythical oath of blackness...
 

...and all the issues people bring to you regarding your blackness will cease to bother you.

BTW, RedMusiq, GREAT POINTS!!

I don't see myself as a black man, but as a Christian man WHO HAPPENS TO BE BLACK. My allegiance is to one person and one person only: JESUS CHRIST. His commandments are to love the Lord with all my mind, heart and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself. Not Black neighbor, but neighbor, as in Black, White, Asian, Latino, etc.

When I made my covenant to live for Christ, it superceded and nullified any other "oaths and promises" I made to any other "foreign" princes or potentates (or words to that effect).

Oh, and BTW, to all those who profess being a Christian and are still struggling with folk questioning your Blackness, just remember, Jesus was persecuted and executed by his own people, and he was a perfect man.

So, I advise you to exercise caution on the people(s) who you profess, align, and claim you allegiance and alliance to.

Preach it, sisterfriend. I went home for the holidays, and I never felt so JUDGED in my whole life -- even by my own family! It's really terrible when one has to feel more "on guard" around her own people than when she's around folks who don't look like her/don't share her cultural experiences.

You know, I'm in the same boat, still, and I turn 40 years old this year! But I can still feel the hurtful comments and the coldness that I had to deal with when I was a teenager. I've worked on it and am still doing so.:)

((((((Steeltrap,Nikki1920, Sistermadly, and others silently co-signing)))))))))))

group hugs to all...

interesting reading. From my GC perch, yall all appear to be well-educated, well-adjusted, professional sistas handling business; surprising to hear that the hurt remains at such depths...

I dunno maybe it's different for guys, we're generally less atuned to our emotions, I guess. For me, I get a sense for whether somebody has my best interest at heart or not. If so, they're welcome to stay and enjoy the show; if not, then they need to agitate the gravel...quickly. ;)

...it ain't as easy as it was in 4th grade when you could just punch em' in the nose. :p (just a joke. violence is soooo 2003.)

Girl, I feel ya! And don't get me started abut how I was dissed because I am a dark skinned sistah. It hurts even more when it is your family members (immediate and extended) giving you grief.

I called my sister out on it many years later and she had the NERVE to say:
"You are still angry about that?"

WTF? :mad: You are right...that hurt never goes away. Got therapy bills to prove it :rolleyes:

Oh yes, my grandmother jokingly questioned my blackness because I don't like yams or sweet potatoes in any way, shape, or form. Sorry, I never liked them

Sistermadly, preach my sistah! And they wonder why I don't go to many family reunions (besides the fact I am 3000 miles away)

It didnt help that my dad was in the military and a captain, so he was one of the higher ranking officers where I lived. I was always in the "smart" class, and was usually the only person of color. After a while, you just stop trying, you know? I'm always accused of being "stuck up" b/c I dont talk to people first. I'm naturally very shy, and always have my guard up b/c of past experiences.

And let's not discuss food: I dont, nor will I EVER eat any kind of greens (other than lettuce), black eyed peas, hamhocks, pigs feet, ears, tail, whatever, chitlins, or oxtail. My family still questions me about that to this DAY, as if liking those things "makes" me more blacker.

Jill, I am on the lighter side of my family (both sides have Native American blood: Piscataway [paternal] and Cherokee [maternal]) so I got it on both sides. Can we PLEASE get over the color thing? (random aside: my ex is one of five kids. He's the darkest, and was told that he wasn't going to amount to anything. He went on to become the first black student body leader at his college. The lighter brother, who was supposed to do "good things" went on to make 8 babies.)*sigh*

According to my family, I thought I was white b/c I graduated high school on time with almost straight As, went to college (a white school at that), and then went BACK to college after I had my daughter. Out of 41 grandchildren, two of us graduated from 4 year colleges. And we are the black sheep. Go figure. :confused:

Girl, I hear ya. We have NA blood on both sides and our family has every color of the rainbow...

Folx need to get over the color thang. That is the truth!

(((Nikki1920))))

That must be so difficult.

I think I am lucky in that my family is West Indian. They never expected me to do anything but outstandingly in school because that was the whole point of us being in this country. They didnt come here so their children could be mediocre, they expected you to shine and Lord help you if you didn't (talked about forEVA, lol)!

Of my US-born cousins, no male has more than one child. Most of the women and men hold degrees, many of the women hold advanced degrees. Almost all have spent some time in college, if not graduated. Blue collar jobs are fine and accepted, but those in blue collar positions are expected to bust their ass to get their kids to the next level. That's just how it is.

Culturally it was also a good situation for me- none of them could reasonably expect me to be Jamaican- I'm too much a Yankee, born here with American expectations. Black American culture is not our culture so a whole set of stereotypes in food, music and clothing hold little to no meaning for my family. While we all have outside friends or interests the family really is at the core of who we are- I was never around other kids enough to care if they thought I sounded 'white', my cousins were like my sisters and brothers. There wasn't a need for more approval than theirs for me.

We're black not because of how we dress or speak, but because that is the identity that we acknowledge. None of us went to college only to never speak to another black person. None of us working in white collar positions are allowed for 10 seconds in the day to forget that we are BLACK and seen as INFERIOR by the majority in this society. We just haven't internalized those expectations for ourselves.

See, I thought it was just me. When I transitioned from a private elementary school to a public middle school, I was teased so much. People called me white girl because I spoke proper English and lived in the suburbs.

Even my close group of girlfriends teased me about the smallest things. Everyone who knows me knows that I am a fountain of random information. When I would mention something or answer a question in front of my friends, they would always say something like "of course Classy would know something stupid like that." To this day, I find myself not responding to questions when I know the answer because I think I will be judged for being knowledgable. I know I shouldn't feel that way, but that ridicule early on has certainly stayed with me.

I trying to get better, but it will be a long and slow process before I feel totally comfortable in these situations.

That is me too!! When I got to high school here in MD, I was quickly labeled "The know it all". Mind you, this was the ACADEMIC magnet for the county. :rolleyes: After a while, I just didnt even care. Teachers pulled me aside and told me to stop answering questions b/c they already knew that I had the answers. After a while I just stopped talking PERIOD. :( It's amazing how this stuff STAYS with you for so long.

Sniff, this is why I love GC.. lol.

Wow, I had pushed all of this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the back of my head. Thank you for starting this thread so that we all could vent.

Thanks everyone for the hugs!!!
((((everyone reading, commenting on this thread))))

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lovelyivy84
[B](((Nikki1920))))


I think I am lucky in that my family is West Indian. They never expected me to do anything but outstandingly in school because that was the whole point of us being in this country. They didnt come here so their children could be mediocre, they expected you to shine and Lord help you if you didn't (talked about forEVA, lol)!



AMEN!!!!! At a moment's notice, if any of my family heard that me or my siblings were not doing well, we got the lecture! Well.....my sisters not me :D. I think those talks as painfully annoying really helped me to stay focused and not settle for mediocrity or give up when I was at a point where I wasn't sure what I wanted to do professionally.

Nikki1920, now you know not black if you don't have you some chittlins and some hogs head cheese...lol :rolleyes: .

Just called me "white girl"
 

I hate when people who are not secure with themselves think they have the authority to decide who is truly black,a s if such a distinction exists. I attended an all white school but still lived in a black neighborhood. Needless to say, when my speech became more refined I began to really stand out. Instead of feeling proud of my proper speech, I became embarassed... until I decided that REAL friends don't care how you pronounce words... and "street credibility" is not going to help me get into medical school... and surrounding myself with people who have similiar backgrounds really helped me get over... besides the fact that I grew up:) and went ahead and brushed my shoulders off. ;)

I hated that so much when I was in school!! I attended all black public schools but the gifted classes and the Advanced Placement classes that I was in were mostly white, so of course I got the "you're trying to be white" and "white girl" remarks. It was bad enough that I got it at school but then to come home and get that from family too.

I remember coming home for a visit last summer and I was talking to an aunt about finishing grad school and possibly going back for a 2nd bachelors so that I could advance at my job and one of my cousins was like, "You need to stop being so white and acting like you so much more than everybody!" I went OFF!! I was like, "So what is being black? Tell me since you make it so clear that I'm not. Is it having a bunch of kids by deadbeat daddies? It is being on welfare? Is it making C's and D's and F's when you KNOW that you are capable of making A's and B's? Is it just being satisfied with being a cashier when you COULD be the manager?" I went on and on and on. I just unleashed all this anger on her because through the years she was the main one making the "white girl" comments. I know that I hurt her feelings but I just had to make her see that being black did not mean that you had to be mediocre.

tickledpink
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: The "Queen City"
Posts: 966
What the heck is "keepin' it real....?"
Sometimes I hate that term. Sometimes it fits the bill, but other times it's an excuse for ignorance.

I've had this happen before. Someone kept "joking" that I talked like a white person & that I ate like a white person. How did I handle it? I put them on the spot. I asked them to explain how it was I was "talking" and "eating". When they tried to immitate me, I cut them off with, "So, you're saying that all black people can't enunciate their words and that all black people eat like savages, like we have no home training? Do you realize that's the same thing racists say?"

Shut 'em right up.

Like someone previously said, there's a time and a place for everything, or.... err thang!


__________________
CCCCC

Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.
GD
Spring '92


Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.



LOL, I did not know that 'err thang' could actually be spelt.
I thinks that is the best response I have ever come across. My personal experience has been that b/c my dad is mixed, I'm 'light skinned' and I wasnt born here (I'm Jamaican) , people say I act like a spoiled white girl- 'oh you think you white because your parents can buy you whatever you want?'. My mom always taught me to 'ignore the ignorant' and that 'a soft tongue turneth away wrath' (thats straight from the Bible) so I usually just ignored them, but i think i'll use your response from now on.

Thanks.

I think Dave Chappelle correctly addresses this issue with his skit.....

When Keepin' It Real, Goes Wrong

He gives real life examples as what is and is not appropriate! :D

I've got to watch that show at some point.. lol.

I think what hurts the most is that people constantly say "You aren't black enough." Not that any of us need anyone else's approval, but its nice when one of your own encourages you to do well in life.

I've been told several times that I am not black b/c I like Metallica. (Listening to it now on Launch.) I explain to those people that the majority of today's rock bands are influenced by Jimi Hendrix (who was black) and blues music (mostly black). So what is the point they were trying to make? Shuts them right up.

I do not need to justify my life to others b/c I chose to get good grades, speak properly, went away to and graduated from college, and am not on welfare.

sorry, had to vent.. lol.

TonyB06
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 593

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Strive
Great topic.

Blacks have been known to treat each other with disrespect.

It is a shame.

Maybe one day they will learn to realize success is not dictated by color, but by achievement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...to be fair, I think all groups do this sort of cultural strafication. I think this thread is just more acute becuase we're discussing "us."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry to jump in on this thread ladies :p
the experiences you ladies have posted have also happened to me except in my case, my "latinoess" (dont think thats a word!) has also been questioned by other latinos within my own fraternity because I "talk white"
I just dont understand why latinos (or at least the ones I know) assume that being latino means i have to talk like im a gang member from south central LA
:mad:
Me and my sister have this one brother who always tells us that we talk white and we just tell him right back..."we dont "talk white", it's called speaking properly!!!"

No need to apologize. Jump right in and share.:D

ambicion6, thanks for sharing. I didnt know that "talking white" occured in other communities. Interesting....

Me neither. :( Dag, we all need to get it together.

Why is it that we (and I'm speaking about black folks ) can't seem to just STFU and support each other? It's ALWAYS something (i.e. what greek org you're in, how you talk, where you live, etc.) that we use to divide and pick each other apart over.

Sorry for the vent, but I get tired of the bull. I know our ancestors are probably shaking they head over the stuff we as a people "sweat".

I'm not surprised that the "talking white" phenomenon occurs in other communities of color, particularly those who have been extremely marginalized. I wonder, though, whether it goes on in Asian Pacific American communities.
:confused:

In the study I've done about racial assimilation, surgery to have eyelids "Americanized" is popular in some Asian communities. I don't know about language/linguistic issues, though..hmmm

add to that peroxide treatment to supposedly have lighter skin. it's more a phenomenon outside of the US.

assimilation is rampant in the asian american community. it's evident in the disparity of interracial dating differences between asian men and women. a lot of different reasons for it.

Re: Your "Blackness" Questioned?????
 

HK, I understand your annoyance with your friend b/c she was making many assumptions. However, I also understand why she may have made those assumptions. Many of us (black people) get our jobs and move as far away from black people as we can and never look back or try to aid the community from when they came. I don't think that it's absolutely necessary to live among blacks (although I will b/c when I go to work in the mornings, I want black children to see a young black professional and know that they too can do that), I do think that it is essential to continue to take part in the struggle.

Don't be mad at her. Maybe she didn't mean any harm. :)

SC

Re: Re: Your "Blackness" Questioned?????
 

My sister called and my answering machine came on once and she said that she hung up b/c she thought that she had dialed the number of a white woman. It wasn't my English being proper (b/c my mother didn't raise any fools and she speaks proper English as well). It was the inflection in my speech. I can't deny that other races do tend to have a different inflection when speaking and more of a nasal way of speaking sometimes. Of course this does not go for everyone but I must admit that I understood why my sister mistook me for someone else. It's just like how I can tell if I'm talking to a black woman when I call the telephone company - and it's not a matter of her English being proper or not.

It may also be a regional thing b/c when I lived in Cali, quite a few times while riding the train, I thought that the person standing behind me talking was white and turned and the person was black. It was not a matter of proper English. It was the nasalness of it all.

SC