What a lovely thing to do southernau. I am sure that your daughter looked forward to everyday to see what you had sent and said in that day's note.

What a great idea! She would love that. I will put that on my very long list of things to do. I think I have all my recs in order now. My friends have been letting me know that they got confirmation of the recs arriving. Such a relief.

They are not *your* recs.

I feel like it's my job right now since my daughter is at the beach. But you're right they are her recs.

I realize I'm piling on here -- but that is really, really terrible information about recommendations.

And the PNMs it might (negatively) affect the most are the ones who most need accurate information, like those who are first in their families to participate in recruitment.

From Auburn Panhellenic website:


Woah. Just now seeing this. Why in the world would they write that about recs? That is absolutely cruel and flies in the face of what many (most? all?) chapters believe and follow about recs.

Our alumnae panhellenic sends scores of girls to Auburn each year and we do everything in our might to help them be as prepared as possible. Many girls are first generation. Going up against college panhellenic website crap like this doesn't help our cause in trying to educate our local girls on the necessity of recommendations.

It's one thing when CPC's write the standard "it's up to the chapter to secure a rec if they are interested in you." This one is over the top "recs aren't a big deal," which is the absolute opposite of what our APH is hearing from the college chapters. Technically the CPC doesn't require recs to *participate* in recruitment, but to mislead the PNMs that individual groups don't require them is utterly wrong.

I do agree on that part.

I believe they are trying to reduce the worry of PNMs and encourage first generation PNMs while reducing the perceived competitiveness, especially given the current sheer volume (over 1300) of PNMs. However, I agree - a well prepared PNM should try to have 1 rec per chapter, but if that is not possible, it is still likely they can have a successful recruitment at Auburn - especially if they have good grades and overall package.

I think the question is in the age of internet - how can we encourage participation while not the perceived hurdles to finding a Panhellenic home? Make it easier for PNMs, chapters, and Alumnae groups?

The first statement is true-recommendations are NOT required to register for recruitment, however, it is also misleading. But isn't it a statement promoted by the NPC? The extra credit remark is over the line and encroaches on some sororities membership requirements and is from Auburn Panhellenic. Very misleading! I venture to say there are going to be some disappointed PNMs who took the easy way out and did not secure recommendations, who wanted to believe this misinformation because it relieved them of the burden of finding recs.

(emphasis mine)

Here's my question, just for philosophical purposes: are the hurdles actually "perceived"? We know that PNMs who read this information on the Auburn website are literally being misinformed as to the reality of the situation -- which is that it's a competitive campus where the sheer number of registered PNMs means that recs are all but required for a student who wants to make it through the first RFM-mandated round of no-brainer releases (GPA, etc).

If that hurdle is real, why should NPC take the position that the best option is to hide the truth? It can't be because they are afraid to discourage registration; registration is hitting record highs at the competitive campuses.

Is it because there is the need to maintain an elaborate facade the sorority recruitment is not in fact a process that still is heavily informed by network, family relationships, and hometown?

If NPC wants to make the experience better for first-generation Greeks, then the place to effect that outcome is not by encouraging the CPCs to dissemble. It's by strengthening the community education resources available to APHs, so that we can more effectively catch those 1st-gen girls during their senior year, and provide that fraternal education and preparation which makes all the difference between a great recruitment experience and a miserable one.

To tell a PNM in July that rush is this super-easy, "just show up and be yourself! the paperwork is extra credit!" situation, in an attempt to make the NPC community more inclusive when you know it's not true, is like locking the barn door after the horse has already been stolen. Because the "old girls network" of PNMs who already know all the secrets were finished on May 15 and are sitting pretty; meanwhile anyone who stumbles across the AU site right now is reading "you don't need recs to go through recruitment!!!!" as "you don't need recs to have a successful recruitment"... and I think us alumnae can wearily admit that it's simply not true, even if NPC will not.

Ignore my ranting if it's out of line. I've just spent so many weeks this summer talking to 1st-gen area girls and giving them the "real" story about their chosen SEC/Texas/Big 12 process -- and that their first experience with their College Panhellenic Council is a wishy-washy soft-pedaling of mistruth, doesn't feel very Panhellenic to me at all.

It's fun when you and I agree.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...aaaaayae5a.jpg

That whole website is so chock full of bad info I had to make sure it wasn't an Onion production. The snack part!!

Let's come up with more foods that will stick in your teeth and give you hideous breath. I don't know why they didn't just tell them to bring a bag of spaghetti with anchovies.


NPC can't say "recs are required" because they aren't required to participate in rush, which is a Panhellenic production. They also can't say they are required to get a bid, because they do not have certified knowledge of what each group requires. (They might know by word of mouth, but that treads on MS territory to assert it as a fact.) There is a way to put across the importance of recs correctly without crossing the Panhellenic line - Alabama usually does it VERY well on their website. This website is doing it very wrong and either written by someone who really is trying to keep the unknowing out, or else by someone who lives in Happy Unicorn Rainbow Village.

I would guess that it is a collegian who is on Panhellenic council and that she is living in Happy Unicorn Rainbow Village.

Depends on what your CPC goals are - if the goals are to be inclusive and everybody gets A bid and the pledge classes get larger/closer to Bama's size - then no you do not need a rec for every chapter either because not every chapter requires them or - unbeknownst to the PNM an alum might prepare one for you. (Although we cant tell you which is which because of MS rules.)

If the goal is for the informed PNM to have the mist options possible - then it is her responsibility to find letter writers.

This probably came about because somewhere Out there hundreds of PNMs are making Greek life staff and APH nuts trying to get recs instead of focusing on women they know for references. To this I would ask a PNM - if you don't know anyone at all in a group enough to sign a form saying your resume is factual, wouldn't you be better off and have more fun in a group that you already know someone?

Because of the internet, grade inflation, etc - if 1400 women are all adorable with 4.0 GPAs , work in soup kitchens, are cheerleaders beauty queens and athletes - how do you tell them apart? Without being just random ir arbitrary?

Agree... but I feel like this is not what Auburn is saying in their 2014 guide. I feel like they are almost saying, "Heck, no need to go find letter writers at all! It's optional. You're a special snowflake and your sparkling personality is all you need!"

lol.

It probably deserves a parody. Like replacing recs and recruitment with resumes and job interviews. Or maybe even shoes and job interviews.

And Cheetos.

But the someone is very enthusiastic! Very! And all about proclaiming this good news!

hmm, how to overcome adamant exclamation with accurate information?

But think of how many OOS PNMs participate in recruitment (Auburn's freshman class is around 40% OOS, I think, and the % of OOS PNMs may be even higher -- anyone know?).

Although many of Auburn's OOS students are probably from Georgia, they still may not know any actives (well) in most groups.

Auburn has 40% out-of-state students - with last year roughly 49% of PNM's being from out-of-state. (And incidentally 35% of Alabama
Freshmen not meeting the standard for the Auburn freshman class.)

The internet is your friend - https://cws.auburn.edu/panhellenic/beforereg/parents

Recruitment information notwithstanding, the AU Panhellenic blog does have some cute president/officer profiles and philanthropy events blogged (keep scrolling):

http://aupanhellenic.blogspot.com/

Looking at the home states of sorority presidents and Panhellenic officers profiled on the blog, I thought the OOS representation was remarkable -- more OOS than in-state. Anyone know the % of OOS participation in AU recruitment?:

Chapter Presidents:
Alpha Chi: Alabama
ADPi: Alabama
Alpha Gam: Alabama
AOPi: Tennessee
Alpha Xi: Alabama
Chi O: Tennessee
Tri Delta: Georgia
DG: Georgia
DZ: Georgia
Gamma Phi Beta: Georgia
Kappa: Alabama
KD: Alabama
Phi Mu: Florida
Pi Phi: Mississippi
Sigma Kappa: Texas
Theta: Alabama
Zeta: Texas
Panhellenic Officers:
President: Georgia
Administrative VP: Colorado
Executive VP: Texas
VP Finance: Florida
VP Recruitment: Maryland

Thanks for the info. :)

And thanks for the tip. I had no idea you could find stuff like that on the internet.

Could you link me to this part? Just curious, considering the scholarships offered at Bama (in-state and OOS).

My simple non-scientific independent study based on recommendations I wrote(or didn't) would confirm HQWest's statistic that 35% of Alabama freshmen would not meet the standard for Auburn. Numerous Bama bound girls from OOS with below 3.0.

I'm sorry this last part on not meeting standards made me laugh-- when I was coming through all of us SEC bound high school seniors (which being from down south was about 90% of my graduating class) knew the "smart kids" went to Vandy or Auburn the rest of us got to go to the fun schools…. :-)

I didn't find an Auburn standard for unconditional acceptance on the Auburn site -- it seems as if some of the college websites have become vague on specific numbers and post averages instead.

It was my understanding years ago that a potential freshman needed a 24 on the ACT for unconditional admittance to Auburn (don't recall the GPA).
According to the following stats, 37% of Alabama freshman and 18% of Auburn freshmen scored below this threshold (between and 18 and 23):

Auburn
Alabama

Honestly I was a little surprised that 37% of Alabama freshmen scored below a 24.

Other stats from above links concerning enrolled freshmen:

Auburn average ACT: 27
Alabama average ACT: 26

Auburn average GPA: 3.78
Alabama average GPA: 3.57

Auburn GPA of 3.75 or above: 56%
Alabama GPA of 3.75 or above: 41%

What do you think is responsible for their willingness to pay OOS tuition to attend Alabama?

Is it the Greek system that attracts these girls, or is it simply that they want a large SEC-type school and Alabama is where they were able to gain admittance?

I could not find the newspaper article I mentioned before.
Here is the graphical representation of this data
- for Alabama http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm

for Auburn -http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm

My understanding is schools do not give out a minimum ACT or SAT score anymore and prefer to present averages because these types of exams tend to favor white upper middle class males. They also put students that are home schooled at a disadvantage.

So Alabama appears to be more selective because they have a lot more applications; however, the applicant pool is of a wider range and the range of students accepted is wider. It looks like students that do not think they will get into Auburn don't apply.

Exactly.^^^ Bama has an acceptance rate of about 45% and Auburn 70%, yet the median SAT/ACT and GPA's are similar. Seems like Auburn's applicant pool is of high quality- perhaps due to their awesome engineering/science programs.

I wanted to mention that Bama is doing a great job of attracting quality students. They seem to have lots of money for generous scholarships and they are constantly building new facilities. The dorms are incredible and the campus is gorgeous. With a 28 on the ACT you can go to the honors college and attend a small school within the larger university setting. Lots of personal attention.

I am sure there are out of state students who pay full price (I know a few) for Bama and Auburn because it's worth it. Many Florida students are shut out of Univ. of Florida/FSU because the prepaid program and state scholarships have made it very competitive. Bama and Auburn are great schools and are attracting good students who just don't have the stellar stats to get into UF.

I will venture a guess that many that fall in this 37% are athletes. I worked with student athletes a few years back and quite a few of the students I worked with would be below that 24, not much below it, but below it.

Honors at Bama is 28 ACT and 3.5 GPA in high school
Honors at Auburn is 29 ACT and 3.75 in high school

I am starting to see a pattern....

Very true- and it is the case at many universities. I live in an area considered to be a hotbed for high school football and many athletes are admitted to universities with gpa and test scores that are way lower than the averages for students that are not recruited athletes.

The girls with the GPAs below 3.0 were from northern states. Up until this year, I thought OOS students from far away would be going to Bama because they were recipients of scholarships. This year, with the low GPA girls, I couldn't say.

You are seeing the pattern because it is very much there.....

Also note that Auburn does not try to entice out of state students with merit money as much as Bama. I tend to think they attract high quality applicants because of the strength of certain programs.

The other poster who mentioned merit money and football being the main draw for Bama- maybe for some people. However, the dorms and other facilities are awesome and the large scholarships are definitely are draw- even if one is not a football fan.

I've seen low GPA-high ACT kids and high GPA-low ACT kids go to college and do fine...and not...I've seen brilliant students getting into the party scene and flunking out, I've seen poor-to-average students go to college and do fine, or even better than fine.

It's what you do while you're there that counts....and sometimes, not even then. You can succeed at life and drop out of college.

Life is a crap shoot.

I can't speak to the Northern OOS but I know quite a few West Coast students and families look at schools east of the Mississippi for a variety of reasons:

1. Football - it's a draw
2. History/tradition - SAA
3. 4 years - students can enroll in the classes they need and if they don't goof around graduate in 4 years. Lots of budget cuts in CA with students being impacted and some public colleges are coming out and saying it will probably be 4+ years to graduate. For some offsetting the cost of OOS tuition vs 5 years in state is worth it. I have a friend whose daughter has been trying to take a general ed summer school class for the last two summers and the class has been full at multiple JCs in the counties.
4. Admission - can't get into the in-state public schools. Big uproar in CA that some of the UC schools are accepting more OOS and foreign students than in-state.
5. Scholarships - some of the OOS schools seem to be more generous with scholarships than in-state schools and the cost is a wash.
6. Sometimes the kids just want to get out of the state.

I'm curious how many OOS kids finish at the OOS school. I know quite a few kids who went OOS but then transferred home their sophomore or junior year.

Very true on all points. I have a number of friends/acquaintances that did not go to college and are doing quite well. I don't emphasize that with my own kids because they *are* going, LOL.

A lot of "northern" students pay so much money for in state tuition at home that it is actually cheaper to pay OOS tuition at other schools. I saw this a lot in MD where many of our Greek women were OOS from NY. This also happens in AZ with kids coming from CA. Alabama has now made it onto the radar of these students, so you can expect their numbers to grow.

This is true at Indiana, as well. There are a ton of east coast kids who go there now because the music and business schools are highly regarded and the OOS tuition + room and board is cheaper than east coast schools.

Auburn gets a lot of students from Florida because of how big the Florida schools have gotten. The Auburn campus is gorgeous and looks like a movie set of what you would expect college to look like. This attracts a lot of students (in particular women or interested in engineering) from Georgia and Florida that go to visit FSU and GaTech and it doesn't look like what they thought or feel as friendly or homey.

Although the freshman Return rate is 90%, the 6 year graduation rate for Auburn is about 70%, I would guess that part of that is OOS students that transfer home.

They are definitely not getting into Michigan/Illinois/Ohio State/Wisconsin with below 3.0 GPAs, and Alabama is a lot more appealing than the third-tier schools they could get into in their home states.

I am not sure where you're located, but your estimation of the Big 10 academic tiers are a little off. I have worked in secondary education for 20 years in Big 10 country and two of the schools you've cited do admit students below a 3.0 and do it quite often. You left Purdue off the list which is harder to get into the Illinois and Ohio State. In fact, OSU has the third lowest admissions standards in the Big Ten. I know of quite a few kids who were wait listed at Purdue and Indiana and got into Illinois. Michigan and Ohio State may compete athletically, but academically it's not even close.