Well, bless your heart. Since you don't know my background, let me tell you a little story.

My father spent 26 years in the military, which was desegregated long before the general population. We Army brats that lived on military posts our entire childhood are a unique group. Children of all races, colors, creeds, and backgrounds lived together in small areas. We went to school together, to chapels together, played sports together, tried to learn new languages and cultures together and even attended funerals together as parents were killed in the line of duty. Skin color was about as important as eye color when deciding who to play with, who to be friends with, who to ask to prom, who to date, and who to eventually marry. What you consider a racial cliche was our reality. My black friends, Asian friends, white friends, Hispanic friends, Native American friends, Puerto Rican friends, gay friends, (for the record, at one point in my teenage years, I went on at least one date with guys in each of the categories above) lesbian friends, straight friends from high school didn't spend every day worried about how we were all different from each other. Our agenda consisted of living our lives and hoping no soldiers in Class As knocked on the door.

We raised our children right outside a military post with the same beliefs. The only trait of any real importance is the content of one's character.

When my daughter talks about member's of her sorority, I hear about "my sister Mary" or "my sister Kim" and when I ask which one Kim is (because I have a hard time keeping it straight), I hear "the biology major that lives on the hall" not "one of the several minority girls in the sorority". I am sure there are sororities at Auburn that would never offer a bid to a minority. Fortunately, my daughter is not in one of them. They don't have tokens. They have sisters.

Yes, I know of some that literally do, though I think these volunteer opportunities are undertaken on the basis of need (requests from local agencies/programs for volunteers), not race.



A predominately white college sorority would be an appropriate and/or effective group to "attack" issues in the AA communities?


IMO, this seems cliche'. I think it is misguided to assume that all girls of non-white ethnicities constantly want this to be pointed out by their GLO --actually, in fact, it seems a little "counter-color blindness."

Perhaps they just want to live their lives without their race being pointed out as their basis of identity -- like Carnation's children.

I would be interested in a list of things to do and say about diversity in SEC GLOs that are not considered "cliché."

Wait, did this become a thread about how hard it is to be a white person? Awesome.

White people are not "damned if we do, damned if we don't." We have the privilege of just throwing up our hands in the air and walking away from thinking about race. Women of color do not.

It makes it what people believe. And that is the point.

NPHC are not the only GLOs founded 50+ years ago that were and still are grounded in race, ethnicity, and culture. Not having any or a lot of nonwhite college students during the time IFC and NPC GLOs were founded is an obvious point. Therefore, if diversity was unavailable or undesired (let's be honest) people need to be honest about that. NPHC GLOs are honest about our founding and we do not use the absence of whites to pretend that we were unintentionally Black. Many of our founders intended to form Black GLOs. Race was not invisible and neutral in our founding.

The fact that predominantly white GLOs get to see themselves as "sign of the times" without delving further into the complexities of the matter reinforces the notion of whiteness as carefree, race neutral, and powerful.

BGLOs, MCGLOs, LGLOs are not the only GLOs that are both intentionally and unintentionally predominantly (insert identity of majority of membership).

I seriously doubt that any NPC group was founded with an eye to keeping blacks out. I'm betting it never crossed their minds They probably just wanted to be friends.

When I was at the University of Hawaii, there were actually sororities for different ethnic groups. They'd been there for decades. Wakaba Kai was only for Japanese girls, Teh Shih Cheh was for Chinese, and so forth and there was even a group for "cosmopolitan" girls --i.e., racially mixed girls. There were fraternities like them. You did not rush outside your ethnic group.

Apparently, none exist any more. Alpha Gamma Delta does and they have women from every culture and they form a beautiful picture of Hawaii. Do they hang out and think, "There's my Filipina sister! And over there are 4 Japanese! And aren't I cool for being in this group with all these hapas?"

No.They merely go about the business of sisterhood, including those who came from the mainland. Like some of us go about the business of teaching or parenthood without taking time out to divide our students or children racially in our heads.

NPC groups didn't have to worry about keeping Black members out at their founding because their schools already did that for them. How many schools were racially integrated in the late 19th century and early 20th century?

There is great irony and cliche in your wanting a quick GC Diversity Training. :)

Your post reminds me of my "sandbox" post in another thread. White organizations tend not to play in the sandbox owned by nonwhites or tend not to be willing to create a new sandbox with nonwhites. Nonwhites, on the other hand, tend to be accustomed to having to smile and show an appreciation for even being invited to the white sandbox.

I'm all for separate sandboxes that can work together if so desired. But since some organizations seek diversity, they need to know that such diversity is not contingent upon how the majority feels. Don't invite minorities and then expect them to not acknowledge the minority identity. That serves no purpose than to make the majority feel warm and fuzzy. I have no interest in riding the rainbow pissing pony created by the majority. The majority who wishes to pretend no one cares or thinks about this stuff can form their Kumbaya circle elsewhere. :)


Yep and white students knew this. Many celebrated this.

I just want people to stop living in lala land. For instance, GLOs were founded at HBCUs in the early 1900s, and some of them mention being a brotherhood or sisterhood for Blacks. Race and ethnicity are intentional and detailed in some of our purposes despite being surrounded by 99% Black student population at HBCUs. Race was still not invisible and neutral to us. Our founders were thinking beyond the HBCU campus and for years to come.

The only difference is the founders of the predominantly white GLOs made no explicit mention of race. Race stood for itself despite attempts at false race neutrality.

Could you give me the Cliffs Notes for your "sandbox" post too?

I guess there is also great irony and cliché in your dodge.

It's a serious question -- what should NPC chapters be striving to say or do that wouldn't be considered "cliché?"

The early NPC groups started because women were despised members of most colleges and they were seeking friendships among the other women. Men thought the women were incapable of learning because they were too delicate and emotional.

The women stuck together for survival and made a society to enjoy. Societies based on mutual interests were very common back then.

People are trying to force 21st century issues on the founding of groups in the mid to late 1800s. No, these women were not seeking to be racially inclusive. They were trying to survive personally and academically in a hostile environment. No, it was not all roses and perfect. I've read "Bound by a Mighty Vow" and from the early days groups have struggled to decide who to allow in and not (like those uncouth Midwestern girls). But to add race to the founding of the groups and early years isn't really relevant.

:) One part of reality is realizing when some experiences are less prevalent. Another part of reality is realizing that the military desegregation did not eradicate racism and racial inequality in the military. People can hang together but the real signs of inclusivity and equality is when social outcomes like military hiring and promotions are not negatively shaped by race and ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. While you kids were playing, that is what the adults were grappling with.

That is why people need to see this from the perspective of the nonmajority. My white friends know that I love them dearly but I never want them to pretend as though we have to ignore racial identity and certain social outcomes to love each other. We discuss race and ethnicity and never pretend as though we need faux colorblind in order to survive.

They absolutely needed each other, but you can't ignore that most early NPC orgs were exclusively white and Protestant. It didn't happen in a vacuum.

Right. But someone who is in a historically black group can come on here and say she loves it the way it was specifically founded and doesn't want it to change and no one bats an eyelash. If some of us in the early NPC groups that were historically white and Protestant said that we love it that way and don't want it to change we would be be hounded mercilessly.

There is a huge double standard here.

Perhaps, but as a member of the majority, why does it bother you so much?

You are missing the point and assuming a double standard.

It is taking pages for some of you to stop pretending that predominantly white GLOs had no consideration of race and ethnicity in their founding and membership dynamics over the years.

Delta is proud of the role of race and ethnicity in Delta's founding (despite being at a 99% Black school), overall membership dynamics, and programmatic thrust. We do not pretend that race was invisible in the early 1900s and is invisible in 2013.

In addition to what Low C Sharp said, when more NPC and IFC get to the point of acknowledging the role of race and ethnicity (if so desired), say whatever you will about race and ethnicity. I'm not mad at you. I'm also not someone who was ever concerned about diversity in the NPC and IFC.

Hole. Lee. Chit. Is the majority not to be "bothered" by injustice? That's a helluva way to dialog, discuss, and learn.

I'm not seeing any injustice. Please illuminate me about how hard it is to be white in America.

These were my thoughts and then they popped up on the screeen. Thank you TriDeltaSallie.

It is now; we are here. Debating about what, why, or how people did things in the late 1800s and early 1900s is a moot point. None of us is privy to any of that. We can surmise, we can ascribe, but we just do not know. We can get on with ourt lives and make the best of the situation in front of us. Wringing our hands about something over which we have no part and no control is, in my opinion, pointless.

That said, I remember having to counsel a chapter when an African American pledge was catching fire from the NPHC groups for joining an NPC group. As I recall she ended up leaving school. I admire and respect the NPHC groups, but I realize that membership in one of the organizations is closed to me. The choice would never be mine.

The institutional history of my alma mater, where racial segregation/discrimination is concerned, is about as negatively high-profile as it possibly could be. The governor's doorway stand to block AA students from entering is well-known. Certainly it would be possible to have women in one's alum group (and everywhere else) whose thinking is a reflection of that period.

So in society's current tier of evolution with racial diversity, what should SEC NPC chapters be striving to say or do that would not be considered "cliché?"

(question not directed to you specifically, but to all)

Hate to burst your bubble, Nyapbp, but I have met white NPHC members.

Yes, I know there have been a few, Eleanor Roosevelt for one. But the NPHC Alumnae chapters in my area do not have white members in them.

:) No, you are not going to dismiss the discourse as irrelevant. The past shapes the present and the future. Historians (among other disciplines) and laypersons know this and they apply it to many topics (gender inequality, government extremism, etc). It is only in topics of race and ethnicity that many people wish to close doors and silence the past.

None of the doors are officially closed to you. NPHC sororities also place emphasis on alumnae chapters. If you cared enough, and have not become a member at the undergrad level because the undergraduate chapter rejected you for some reason, you could apply at the alumnae level. It may not be successful but that lack of success may or may not be because you are nonBlack. There are members who would respect you as long as you work hard like other aspirants and applicants and as long as you prove that you understand the historical and present day significance of being in a BGLO. Given your "let go of the past" intro to your post, you may not understand this and therefore may not be prepared for BGLO membership.

Please do not cite her as the white NPHCer. LOL. Her membership was different.

Those alumnae chapters do not have white members because all whites who attend chapter service events are rejected? All whites who attend membership informationals are rejected? All white applicants are rejected? Please explain.

It is probably that they do not have white (beyond maybe a couple white people) interest in programs and membership. Many BGLOs tend not to recruit and many BGLOs tend to see no overwhelming need to pursue racial and ethnic diversity.

ETA: Delta has a relative small amount of white Sorors around the world. I only recall meeting a couple white Sorors over the years. There was only an issue if the white Sorors tried too hard to "be down." Not every white Soror attempts this but I shall explain. Trying to speak Black English or excessive slang with a "Black accent" does not go over well with some of us. Trying to reference hip hop or songs by Black artists that some of us don't even listen to can also be annoying. Some of us find that annoying because as Blacks many of us do not sit around talking about "Black song and dance" 24/7. Blacks don't all listen to certain songs and dance. And we have a rich history of African diaspora intellectuals and Black intellectuals whose brains spanned beyond dancing, slang, and music. I met one white Soror many years ago who thought she could nonstop speak slang and discuss rap or R&B among Black women with terminal degrees and very successful careers. It was insulting and quite hilarious. That white Soror learned over the years to just relax, be herself, and let her coolness, hard work, and respect for the Sisterhood shape the outcome. She also learned that Blackness includes brains and we know about far more than we are stereotyped as knowing. We are not ignoring that she is a white woman who is our Soror. There is no reason to ignore that. We simply do not use that as a negative.

If SEC wants more diversity, they should think about these types of things. :)

This is all ridiculous. You aren't going to change most minds here and we aren't going to change yours so discussion seems pointless.

;) Those of you who wish to stop discussing should do so. The rest of us will continue until we are done. Greekchat is funny in that any other SEC thread can go for pages with sometimes no real need to keep going. But mention diversity and race and suddenly SEC threads need to have an official end point and silence announcement in order to make some people's Cheerios float in the almond milk. Eat your Cheerios and drink the leftover almond milk while we discuss. ;)

Plus, discussion is about knowledge and understanding. It is not always about changing minds and agreement. Greekchatters like HartofSEC are curious about some things. HartofSEC can use our discussion as research even if it appears as though (hint ;)) we are not directly answering HartofSEC's question.

I understand what DrPhil and sigmadiva are saying. We are talking about groups where (in some chapters) there are pages and pages of appropriate wardrobe for rush, behavioral standards, etc. In such a situation where the tiniest things are noticed, it's kind of asinine to say "I don't even notice she's black." What are you, blind? (Maybe you get extra points for pledging a blind girl. And if she was blind AND black - WOW!)

And as far as NPC orgs go, there are some chapters of historically Jewish organizations where a non-Jew would feel very unwelcome, and the national group apparently has no problem with that. That sounds judgy, I don't mean it to, just stating a fact, and that is their right to exercise membership selection however they want to. NPC hasn't kicked them out yet.

Here's another example that left me dumbfounded.

I found an interesting article online about why more middle class AA don't choose to homeschool. It was written by an AA woman who left a very good law job, downsized her home substantially, etc. so she could homeschool her children. She explained a number of cultural reasons within the AA community that impact why AA women are not inclined to homeschool. It was an interesting post and made me realize issues faced by AA homeschoolers that I hadn't considered before. So I shared it on FB with the comment that I found it really interesting.

An AA homeschooling mom was annoyed that I shared the post because it was a judgmental article and what good does it do to introduce race into the topic of homeschooling?

Are you kidding me?

I learn something helpful and share it. Now I'm the bad guy for doing so. But if I met an AA homeschooling mom who was facing these issues and wasn't aware of them, then I'm a privileged white person who doesn't care about the challenges women face in the AA community.

That's just one example of why whites feel damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Except for the part where many NPC groups had explicit WASP clauses not allowing Jews, blacks, etc., right? It never crossed their minds, except when they created those membership standards?

If NPC chapters want more women of color, they should be encouraging more women of color to participate in recruitment. There are many, many, many ways this could be done. For example, the local alumnae panhellenics could reach out to high school affinity groups (black students union and so on) to include them in the pre-rush activities. You better believe, at the schools where recs are required, women of color are going to have a MUCH harder time finding them than do white women.

You should not assume that a single member of a group is authorized to speak for that entire group. That's pretty much the definition of tokenizing.

And this is where I give up. If you can't see the point I'm making, then there's nothing left to say.

Have a great day! :)

I get your point. It is SO HARD to be a white woman, and you are going to flounce.

Yes, BGLOs do not have open recruitment. Intake still goes by invitation only, making it much more difficult for first generation or out of state college students or a "friend of a friend" to apply. That does not mean they do not recruit. In my area, BGLO members and alumna start talking to young eligible women about opportunities in college and intake very early. I am not talking about mothers talking to their legacies, but active recruiting of talented high school women. I can appreciate their desire to mentor young women to strive to achieve and pursue graduate and professional programs, but they also actively discourage women from pursuing NPC or MCGLO membership (or D9 membership in groups other than their own).

Wow. Just wow.

These discussions are not about tutorials for white people. Not every nonwhite person is going to like what you say and do. No one is obligated to be receptive and welcoming to white people. Racial and ethnic minorities (in general) are accustomed to that. Whites (in general) are not accustomed to that and feel entitled to getting unwarranted smiles and tutorials. Perhaps silently observing would work when all else fails. The need to figuratively shout your presence and flounce is the same race cliche and white privilege all over again.

Going to a Black woman with an article you read tends to only work if you and that person have discussed the topic and have established such a relationship. Otherwise it is the same routine all over again of whites thinking thy are awesome enough to teach and save nonwhites. The same goes for certain men coming to me with an article on women and if I were to go to a LGBT person with an article I read if I don't already have that relationship with the person. My powerful non-LGBT identity can be construed as attempting to teach and save as opposed to simply discussing a topic.

We do not exist in silence and with no outreach. We reach out to people which is also why we are so visible in the communities. When we say we do not recruit, we are saying that for a reason. That reason includes letting people know the difference between an informational and recruitment; and the difference between individuals and chapters talking to people versus what our official entities encourage. Our official entities do not encourage discouraging people from pursuing other GLOs or pushing people to be aspirants and applicants. Talking to people about our GLOs is not the same as pushing people one way or another. The information and decision must ultimately be up to the person. It has always been the case that some people and chapters do not realize that.

More importantly, your post was responding to a post about a white person who claims to really want to be in an NPHC sorority. Bring it back to the purpose behind my post.

I can respond to any point I find within your statement regardless of your intended purpose.

My response was directed to your assertion of what NPC groups (or universities) could do to encourage diversity. I have always admired the D9 and their active participation beyond college, and I feel that it is very important to encourage mentoring of high school students especially those who might not have a parent that went to college. What confuses me is taking that mentoring role to dissuade someone from accepting a scholarship to a non-HBCU or to deride someone who is interested in a MCGLO. As an NPC member, I would not things that are negative about other groups to a PNM as it tends to make the whole system look bad.

Of course. I was making sure you understood the purpose. Cool.

What was my assertion?

I tend to dislike "encouraging diversity" because humans are lazy and like quick and visible fixes.

In your post at 1:04 you ended "If SEC wants more diversity, they should think about these types of things."

I was trying to counter that it can be very difficult to recruit passively, either for an organization or a university. Recruiting actively can seem like pandering.

This is why I wanted you to directly connect your post with the purpose behind my post. I don't want predominantly white GLOs doing any recruitment beyond what they already officially do. The purpose behind my first post that you quoted is that BGLOs do things how we do them for a reason. And we typically do not act shocked and baffled that outcomes such as race and ethnicity of the majority of membership is the way it is. A supposed white aspirant should know that.

I am also never giving white GLOs pointers or tips. I'm discussing the larger point of race and ethnicity that can tie into GLOs. You cannot purport ANY kind of diversity (race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, etc) if there is no backdrop to the different groups represented. The different racial and ethnic groups represented have to assimilate into your GLO identity and offer their own insights but they don't have to assimilate into whiteness disguised as colorblindness. And if some white GCers (not you) needed me to tell them this, that is proof of the larger non-GLO problem that some of us have been discussing in this thread.

Theories
 

This is an interesting topic! (I've read most of the previous threads covering this.) At my suburban high school (in a college town) the Black students had a high percentage of NPHC mentors and advisors. When I got to college, I had absolutely no familiarity with the NPC recruitment system. Myself, and many of my black classmates (10% of our school system) knew plenty about the NPHC organizations, through our teachers, mentors, coaches and (in a few cases) parents. I think since NPHC organizations do have very active Alumnae/Alumni groups, the students could actively identify who was in an organization. My mentor, a member of Sigma Gamma Rho, volunteered as a track coach at my junior high and was my history teacher in high school, She also started an auxiliary group, in which participants did service. My bball coach is a member of Phi Beta Sigma who also is a motivational speaker. The local undergrad Delta chapter coached the step team at our high school (they also did community service.) We were never "recruited." When I became a Delta my SGRho mentor got me gifts and we celebrated! We had more of a familiar knowledge of basic history/cultures of the NPHC, because we watched it in action. It would've been a tough crowd of AKA, Delta, Zeta and SGRho interests asking why NPC groups don't have stepshows! (I kid...kind of :D.) You can only recruit the willing.

So with that, if NPC groups want "diversity," it takes a commitment to reach out to those who are not represented in their orgs. But I question how one could do so without looking like they just want these members to "diversify" their organizations. Or perhaps the concern should be less on recruitment and more on "inclusion" for those people of color who DO care to participate in NPC recruitment. (In regards to SEC schools, my midwest university has quite a few members of color in represented in NPC orgs, it's not a big deal to us, but we are a very liberal university.) Make sure that there is an opportunity for all interested ladies get a fair shot at all the houses on campus. I know that's easier said than done in many cases where Alumni control or personal biases can make equity difficult.

Just a few theories!

BINGO. If you want the best of the best in your organization, you should be looking for leaders and scholars and young women of high character everywhere you can find them.

Applicants
 

Honest question: How much time is spent recruiting high school ladies who may already fit the "too-narrow applicant pool?" Does alumni go to schools or HS orgs to connect with great candidates?

One thing I did (and do) like about the university I attended is the recruiting process is done a couple of weeks into school and offers students an opportunity to learn about ALL of the organizations. I notice quite a few universities start recruitment on move in day, which may not allow great ladies with a lack of knowledge about the process the opportunity to rush (in the fall at least.) I know the competitive schools have serious traditions when it comes to that.

Most schools now have freshman and transfer orientations in the summer. Alabama, Auburn, the large SEC schools have a 2-3 day orientation with parents in attendance as well. All student organizations have booths/presentations/etc so that the incoming students can see what orgs are on campus and how thaey recruit/sign up members.