I agree that is is a way to manage numbers at a school with tons of PNMs and also a way to keep the alumnae involved. There are alumnae associations who LIVE for rec-writing season!

I have a daughter currently at an SEC school. She served on her Recruitment Committee. They have tried lengthening recruitment for the last 2 years to help with retention numbers. It actually had the opposite result and there was a lot of back lash. This fall they will shorten it. As far as RECs go, I agree that at most of these large recruitment schools, it is a check off on a box. It does not guarantee anyone an invitation to the second round. Both my daughters have had wonderful, personal RECs that didn't mean squat once recruitment started.

Crazy idea: what if the recs could be from ANY NPC alumna? What if all PNM's were expected to find, say, three recs in total, and have them sent to all chapters?

1) I'd rather see a personal rec from an XYZ who knows the PNM than a rec from an alumna of my own group who met the woman for lunch once, and

2) If an alumna of XYZ says that a PNM is fit for membership in her group, I generally take it to mean that she's fit for membership in my own, too.

3) It's hard to imagine there are areas of the country where women couldn't find SOME sorority women they know personally. There's still a race/class aspect, but the geography problem is pretty quickly solved.

DBB, I think your idea is really an interesting one, but it diminishes the competition for the "best" girls.

I also find it really interesting that the only ones here who like recs are from the deep south (as far as I can tell anyway). I really do think it's way more about tradition than anything else. And for all the mythos about family connections, we've seen in the numbers that Bama, for instance, does a great job at placing girls from all over the country. Now those girls may have had great recs for every chapter, but I doubt they are the same kind of recs the girl from Birmingham has.

Which brings me back to hazing before the fact. I think it's just busy work to narrow down the girls who are willing to jump through the hoops. I also say if you really want alumnae input, have a rush day of interviews by them, ala colony recruitment. Then every girl would have a rec and it would be a valid one that wasn't done by some stranger who may or may not even know the girl.

In all my years as a KD, I have only written 1 rec other than the legacy form I sent to my daughter's school. The young lady was going through rush at an SEC school, waiting until the last minute to contact our headquarters trying to track down a rec. Headquarters contacted the Alumnae Chapter and I was given the "opportunity" to meet the young lady. I did not check the box that asked if I knew the girl personally. I also stated right on the form that my recommendation was based on meeting the young lady for 30 minutes. No one I knew had any connection with her. I e-mail it off to the chapter. As far as I have been led to understand through the GC grapevine that listed the new members by chapter at that school she either dropped out of recruitment or all houses dropped her.

I felt that my rec was a total waste of time since it did not give the chapter a glowing review of the young lady. I can see where it was used as a means of dropping her for someone who had a more glowing rec.

In my day, National required them but the chapters sent out the forms to the various AC's to get them filled out. We had to do it quickly as we had to relie on pony express. No one had a fax in their home, computers were still using punch cards, etc. We did take recs over the phone if we had to. Who ever was our rec chair would be up all night trying to locate someone who would write something. Glad those days are behind us.

DaffyKD

Amen. Working with a dot matrix print out of alumnae sorted by Zipcode in the weeks leading up to rush with the office phone was shear insanity.

Titchou, are you from around Lafayette? My dad's people are from Buras, where Katrina made landfall. I'm not sure that counts as Cajun country, but my dad's mom spoke French before she learned English, and nobody outside my immediate family who's not from SoLa can understand a word my dad says. Eh-là-là ... :D

I do like the idea of recs coming from someone who really does know the PNM, and agree that they should carry some weight...just don't know how much they really do in these mega-massive recruitments. A big crop of PNMs from my community attend UGA, Bama, Ole Miss and Auburn, making them the schools I send the most recs to. There are also a lot of NPC alumnae in my area and we network to help these PNMs get recs. Every year, we send glowing -- and I mean, they radiate with glow -- recs in on girls we know. And every year we see some get dropped by our sororities. We see legacies not make it to pref, and some have legacy connections that hold key positions in alumnae organizations. The SEC can be one rough ride.

I also get rec requests from PNMs I don't know personally. This happens both locally as well as through an online Panhellenic community I and some others are involved with. Because of how our networks are structured, we do have the opportunity to communicate with PNMs, so that helps. Most of us also operate on the "vouched for" system. If someone I know and trust vouches for a PNM she knows, then I'm comfortable giving a rec. Many alumnae I know who do recs are also okay with this. Even with all this vouching, you're still talking about recs from alumnae who don't know the PNM personally, didn't watch her grow up, etc.

Given the size of these SEC recruitments, and that PNMs are advised to get 2-3 recs per chapter, I think there are a lot being sent in by alums who don't know them personally. Yet, some of the PNMs I didn't know personally had smoother recruitments than those I did know. At the end of the day, it comes down to the connection a PNM makes with the sorority and if they can see her as a sister....not a rec from an alum 30 years out of school.

I do think recs are used to learn more about PNMs, but tend to think they are referenced for that later in the process -- as the sorority's interest in a PNM grows. Initially, though, I think they are used to manage the numbers. Good grief, if only half the PNMs in these big recruitments get the suggested number of recs, you're talking an avalanche piling up. A lot of recs arrive in the summer. How is it even possible for sororities to read through all those recs and learn about all those PNMs prior to an early or mid August recruitment?
I think they are initially checked off, then possibly referenced later if the sorority is interested in the PNM.

I honestly don't seeing them being phased out in the SEC. Given the dynamics I described on page one of this thread, I think they (or the lack of them) are part of the early weeding out.

So here's a question...

As Greek life grows at these schools, and as chapters open on campuses that previously didn't have Greek life, and as more and more regions around the country are seeing alumnae chapters and panhellenics popping up, and as the positives of Greek life are overshadowing the negative stereotypes - what happens when every girl coming through the door has a rec to every chapter?

Granted, this might not happen for quite some time. But what then?

My mom hires people all the time, and she says to me, "Currently, a college diploma pretty much carries the same weight as a high school diploma did 20 years ago." Everyone has one. It's become one of those boxes you just check off.

What could be done once everyone has recs? Should they still be used at that point?

My relatives are from around Creole, in Cameron parish - down below Lake Charles. And Lafayette is the center of Acadiana (Cajun country) so Buras is right there. Ai-eeeee!

From rushees, sorority members, the school, or all of the above?

ASTAlumnae06, I think this is pretty close to already reality at the big Southern schools. It would be interesting to hear what percentage of rushees going through rush at these schools have recs, especially to the big Southern sororities.

I'd love to hear from some actives regarding how important they think recs are.

It might depend on which info on the rec -- the objective info (gpa, class rank, honors, service, etc), or the subjective parts (like a check in the box for poise or good moral character or whatever).

I feel that the actives may find the former more helpful than the latter (they creep facebooks for the latter, actually).

I would SO love to hear from actives about the importance of recs! Some of the info on recs is the same info on resumes and even registration forms. This, by the way, is a very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, Hartofsec!

I just want to point out that there are schools (like my alma mater, though I know the SEC has dwarfed us since my day) that have huge numbers and very few recs sent in advance. Certainly we managed to figure out how to get from 1200 women to around half that after the first round.

I'm not going to get into MS details, but it's not as though you have NO information on a woman before she walks in the door. Everyone fills out a rush application with high school activities, awards, honors, etc...the same stuff you'd probably find on a rec from an alumna who just met the PNM. You obviously have GPA's and class standing, as well.

(NB: I still maintain that, once chapters are 100+, you could do a random draw of names and everyone would be just fine.)

So what is the rec really doing?

1) Showing that the PNM did her homework in advance. Are women who haven't done this more likely to drop out? Will they be surprised by the financial or time commitments? I have no idea; it would be an interesting thing to find out, though I can think of almost no way to do so.

2) Making sure she doesn't have an arrest record or anything. This is a good thing, I think, but again, I don't think that getting a rec from an alumna of every group is necessarily necessary to accomplish this.

At the same time, I see some major downsides. For starters, it perpetuates a class eliteness that I personally find to be one of the most objectionable things about the Greek system. Obviously, that's inherent in recruitment anyway, but let's be honest that women from less-privileged backgrounds are going to have a very difficult time finding recs.

If this is the case, how do recs help to "get the numbers down" after round 1, as others have indicated earlier in this thread? I would imagine it would have more to do with the info contained within the rec, rather than whether a PNM has actually obtained one.

This. It's just tradition now and changing to a system without recs would be as likely as SEC chapters giving up their tailgating spots on gameday.

Well, now you're just talking crazy.

Recs will never go away in the SEC...it is too ingrained in the culture of sorority life of that region (the above conversation about 'who are your people?' is proof enough that the habits and cultural customs of this part of the country are slow to die).

A couple of comments on their use:
I do NOT write recs for girls I do not think will represent my group well. I feel responsible to my group,and I do not write a rec unless I have vetted the young woman. If I find out something I do not like, I simply do not send the rec. I do not believe in a rec for a rec's sake. That kind of thinking is problematic and negates the whole purpose for a rec.

Second, my experience with actives (as a rush advisor) is positive regarding their use of recs. My chapter makes them readily accessible during work week and encourages the girls to study, read, and utilize the information found in the recs. The recs are an extension of the work week activities and prep. IMO, chapters who do not make recs an integral part of work week are missing out on a key part of the recruitment process.

Lastly, I can't speak for all houses, but in my experience, the chapter is often very aware of the out of state girl, the girl from the tiny town of 250, the girl from Boston, etc and recognizes she is not from 'the SEC machine"and that her recs may be fewer in number or less sparkling and gushing as those from women in our state. It doesn't always mean an automatic release, but I have certainly heard an active say "She is from Nowhereville, USA, has great grades and activities. We should meet her!"

I think the problem with recs is that they are abused by some alumnae groups - the ones who hold rec writing afternoons and write recs on all the young women who have registered with their group. And so, recruitments are flooded with empty recommendations.

As an active in a non-SEC school, recs meant absolutely nothing to me. Sure, we knew if a girl had a rec, but I cared more about if that PNM was going to fit in with our chapter than if they had a rec. A rec doesn't tell me anything about that girl's personality, her likes/dislikes/desires in a chapter, or what she stands for as a person. Those are things that mattered most to me as an active, and I felt I could only find out through conversation, not on a piece of paper.

That is what I'm wondering -- how does (potentially) the same information that PNMs can submit themselves carry more weight when submitted on a rec form? (acknowledging that actual personal recommendations carry weight)

Honestly, if a PNM claims on their resume to be the 9th grade 1st runner-up to Miss Sweet Potato, I don't research and verify that detail.

FTR, I'm questioning (and sometimes laughing at) myself as much as anyone -- I'm in the tradition. I only submit hard copies, for instance, and I prefer hard copies of the resume packet. Why? Because I've always done things that way. ;)

Probably because

I wonder if any of the NPCs that require a rec to be pledged (whether it's a SEC-type recruitment or a chapter where no one has recs prior to rush and an alum writes them after the fact) have ever proposed getting rid of them as a necessity. I realize that's way too nosy of a question. :)

I do see the utility in actives knowing information about the girls coming through -- activities, interests, grades, etc (this was probably easier back in the bad ol' days when the recruitment numbers were lower and the recs far fewer). This helps chapters rush more effectively, and the objective info (like grades and activities) can help make decisions between invites and necessary releases (especially in huge recruitments where there are a lot of girls and little time to chat).

But I'm wondering -- is the info the actives are interested in the objective info instead of the box Mildred A. Lum checked on *how long have you known the PNM,* or *has good moral character,* for instance?

If so, could the same be accomplished via the info submitted by PNMs during online recruitment registration?

Not to be peppering you with questions -- just sort of devil's advocating our status quo.

Personally, I don't think the content of the recommendation means anything unless it contains information not otherwise made apparent in the application of the PNM. On the contrary, I think the recommendation's value is in the weight of the fact that it is an alumna recommendation. Each sorority will value that differently in the scheme of their private membership selection process.

I was thinking about that -- and I wondered -- how do those alumnae who believe recs are absolutely necessary feel about having lifelong sisters who slipped into the sisterhood without one?

Just food for thought.

Many sororities require recs in order to be initiated. I know of several campuses where recs are not the norm and where chapter advisers sign off on the new members. So technically, everyone who is initiated in those sororities with that requirement doesn't slip in... their recs come after recruitment but prior to initiation.

Well, not even that, necessarily. A few summers ago (about 6 weeks prior to recruitment at Bama) some girls from this area were arrested on a fairly minor charge, and taken to a nearby county jail. I’m not sure that this would have become common knowledge, except that their bedraggled and tearful mug shots were posted on the county jail’s website for 30 days, along with every other thug who might actually be a menace to society. I felt kinda bad for them (and their parents). I understand that these girls were otherwise regarded as strong PNMs.

Imagine how fast this flew via phone to every kid their high school. And those kids' moms, and their mom’s friends, and alums . . .

And if this nightmare could possibly be any more awkward – it was – one of the girls had an older sister who was rush chair at one of the Bama chapters.

I’m sure there was a lot of pearl-clutching all around, but amazingly, in the end, all three girls pledged really strong chapters (with recs) – two pledged where the sis was rush chair.

I don’t really know how alums in general would know of existing criminal records other than in a case like this. Aren’t some charges expunged for minors anyway?

Now I really don't understand the point or utility of that.

I’ve been writing recs since I graduated in 1974. The last couple of years I’ve been lucky enough to be working with a chapter during recruitment.

I’ve seen crap recs and great recs, both in SEC and non-SEC schools, and from all over the country. Southern ladies can write garbage recs as well as anybody else; non-Southerners can write wonderful recs. Depends on the alumna and her training when she was a collegiate.

A great rec is where the alum knows the girl, has known the family forever and can tell you cute stories about her from Sunday’s church service.
A great rec is also where the alum doesn’t know the girl, maybe doesn’t know the family, but knows people who know them – through church, school, work, etc. A great rec verifies grades, verifies honors, tells you something about her personality, morals, background…good or bad! Say Sally PNM says she was Junior Miss for her county, and the alum says she was 2nd runner-up Junior Miss (which has happened once or twice). This says worlds about the PNM – aren’t you glad you found out before you pledged her?? Or the alum lets you know about major drama, the family filed for bankruptcy, a parent was found guilty of murder…doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. That stuff you aren’t going to find on a PNM’s application.

OTOH, a crap rec is where an alum just put in the same info the PNM did and signs. Tells us NOTHING about the girl…kind of like the rec where the alum meets the PNM for the firs time for a 20-minute coffee date. I hate those. It doesn’t help one bit. I'd just as soon have no rec!

I would not necessarily discount the girl with no rec. If they're interested, the chapters I’ve worked with do try to find out something about the girl.

As far as the entire chapter reading the rec, no, that doesn’t happen. Recs actually become more and more important toward the end of recruitment. A rec is a chance for an alum to say “go for it” or “warning.” It’s up to the chapter to make the final decision.

Busy work for the PNMs? I do hate that they’re told they have to get them. It shouldn’t be that way – it should be the chapter working with their alumnae to get them. Hard to get 2,000 of them without some help, though!

A few of you have bemoaned the fact that you wrote a rec or three, and the chapter didn’t pledge them.

Out of the 40 to 50 recs I write every year for girls from my hometown, maybe 3 or 4% pledge Delta Gamma. Plenty of years nobody pledges DG. That’s just statistics. You have to look at the long-term view. Out of 38 years, I have recommended 76 or so new Delta Gammas, and that’s not too bad! :D

In my day, there was still no dot matrix. Good typewriters were still used.

DaffyKD

But asking someone else what they have heard isn't really verification. And you could also be asking someone (even an alum) who doesn't like the PNM's mom, or whose daughter wasn't invited to the PNM's 16th birthday bash. Some moms (yes, even alums) can be a little less than objective where girls their daughter's age are concerned -- even a little vengeful.

It's hard to tell sometimes where the line between vouching for ends and meddling in begins.

Just food for thought -- when PNMs ask around similarly regarding the reputation of a chapter, they are thought to be soliciting tent talk.

.

A good reason to have two from two different alums of the same sorority.

If I contact one of my AP friends - women with whom I've worked for years in preparing recs - for information about a pnm you can take that information to the bank. All of the rec writers I know would NEVER write a negative rec unless they knew for sure there was a concrete reason why that pnm should not be bid. They might choose not to write a rec, but that is hardly meddling.
I am always surprised at the members who are unaware that a condition of bidding and/or membership is having a rec. Sometimes the active members aren't even aware of the fact that recs are required - they are handled by alumnae.
I think the solution is more education for alumnae (heck, actives, too) regarding recommendations and what they do and do not do. I don't expect the recs I write to do anything other than get really good pnms a foot in the door. I'm very proud of the Katy Alumnae Panhellenic's ability to help our pnms pledge. The vast majority of those I write don't go Gamma Phi, but the majority DO pledge.

Maybe I'm not worthy of understanding these Southern pearl clutching issues, but why would I care if someone's parent was found guilty of murder or something of that nature? That PNM may be estranged from that family member and likely has little to no connection to that individual at that point. It's not as if that PNM was the murderer! Perhaps that PNM wanted a new start away from those issues. What if the PNM had been a victim of domestic violence and the rec writer mentioned that?

In addition, how does the active know which to believe--the alum or the PNM? She likely does not know you from Sally Smith, and while you are a sister of her sorority, that doesn't necessarily mean that she trusts your information to be 100% accurate either.

We have seen women coming through at Ole Miss with several DUIs on their records. Sometimes those are on the letters of reference and sometimes not.

Thank God I have a double strand to clutch! Seriously though, it is different for us "old world" folks. We would know if they were estranged from that family member. And the chapters who really use recs know who their alums are and who writes good recs and who doesn't. I've worked many a back room at recruitment time in the SEC and without giving away MS information I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

Good points -- a PNM like that could probably really use a mentor or alum in her corner to advocate instead of send a negative rec.

This.

And then there was the PNM from great suburb in major southern city going thru recruitment at large SEC school who was hauled away from HS in handcuffs by the sheriff - and very well docmented to me...and the world if they just wanted to look. I wrote a no rec on her....both years she went thru recruitment. Obviously everyone else did too because she was dropped by all groups both years - including mine in spite of heavy lobbying of me by the the vp:recruitment as the girl had friends in the chapter. I stood my ground, they accepted it, and were glad they listened to me when no one else took her either.