DZRose I have agreed with 10000% of what you have said so far.

JAM,

Let me say that I respect your views totally and everyone's opinion on here. Like I have said in my earlier posts I abort puppies and kittens all the time-while I am not thrilled about this I have to think of that puppy or kitten's potential life-roaming the streets, being hungry or standing in a shelter waiting to be euthanized while there are 100's of other dogs and cats barking and meowing-that is very traumatizing. I only bring up the animals b/c of your comparison in your earlier posts, most people say we can't compare humans and animals as humans are way more valueable (I am not sure I believe that). As far as throwing puppies into a well-this does happen but less so in this day and age b/c we have euthanasia-I would much rather euthanize a puppy then think of them suffering in their life or drowning in a well, just like I would much rather abort a fetus rather than child suffer like the ones I see on TV that have no food or clothes-was it fair to bring those children into this world??? If you want to compare animals in this scenario then I guess we need to include the suffering that pigs and chickens go through daily to feed us.
What Dzrose said is correct about endangered animals-we NEED to protect these guys because they are being eliminated-they willbe totatly gone, Humans are in NO WAY of becoming extinct in fact it is the opposite we are overpopulating.

AggieAXO,
I'm proud to call you a fellow Ag!
Good bull!
and to dzrose, I'm proud to call you sister!
DZLAM!

I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made.

What a sad, sad statement.

I was militantly pro-choice until I became a mother. Having been through 3 pregnancies and had numerous ultrasounds and a miscarriage, I am now pro-life in almost all circumstances. I was amazed to find out how quickly that lifeless little ball of cells becomes a real baby that moves, feels, has a beating heart. I think late-term "partial birth" abortions are flat-out murder. I guess I can see both sides, having been on both sides, but having felt that little baby moving inside me and having seen a 7 week fetus with its little beating heart on the screen has totally changed my opinion. There are so many people out there waiting to adopt babies, so many who want children and can't have them.....I have a really hard time with the idea that the "inconvenience" factor of going through with the birth and putting the baby up for adoption justifies choosing abortion.

That's interesting. Most women I know who have had children became even more pro-choice after doing so, once they realized how huge and life-changing pregnancy and motherhood really are, and came to the view that they're not things anyone should be forced or guilted into.

I am pro-choice, with reservations.

If a woman was raped or molested, or if her life is endangered by her pregnancy, she should absolutely have an abortion if she wishes.

If a couple really isn't prepared (financially, emotionally, etc) to raise a child, and IF they were legitimately trying to prevent pregnancy and their birth control method failed for some reason, then they should be free to terminate the pregnancy if they wish.

If a couple just wants an abortion because the baby will be a girl and they want a boy (or vice versa) then that is not a legitimate reason.

Partial-birth abortions are horrific. If you haven't figured out by the time you're that close to delivery, that you don't want the baby, then deal with it. From what I understand, partial-birth abortions are about as uncomfortable as childbirth, so if that's the motivating factor, have the baby and put it up for adoption.

Personally... I'm married. My husband and I don't plan to have children for another couple of years. However, if I were to become pregnant, I would have the baby, because I could never live with myself if I had an abortion and then later couldn't get pregnant. I wouldn't feel comfortable having an abortion, but that's my choice. That is not a choice I'd try to impose on anyone else. That's the whole idea of being pro-choice.

Im Pro-Choice - because I dont know what I would do if I was to have an unexpected pregnancy. I am 99% sure I would keep my baby, bc I do believe it is completely wrong to have an abortion, and against my faith...but there are certain situations that I would be unsure of (like rape).

That does not mean however, that I would force my opinions on anyone else. I think its up to the individual to make their own decision.

I waited for a while to reply to this, partially because of finals, partially because I wanted to make a coherent response.

I'm "pro-life" for myself. I know at this stage in my life, although I'm a student, I would have the baby. I'm financially secure. I have supportive parents, and I'm in a committed relationship with someone who feels the same way about this situation as I do. If any of those factors weren't in the situation, maybe my decision would be different. I know that if I got pregnant next month, it would be as a result of my own carelessness and irresponsibility, and if I'm "woman" enough to be sexually active, I'm "woman" enough to deal with the consequences of having a baby.

On the other hand, I'm VIRULENTLY pro-choice for the rest of the population, and I have done and will continue to do EVERYTHING in my power to assure that the right to reproductive freedom in any way, shape, or form, is preserved for years to come. Making sure the Bush administration doesn't chip away at Roe v. Wade is something I've become devoted to ever since the Florida election controversy was over. I have friends who, due to their individual situation, having the baby wasn't the right decision, and I support their right to make that decision. I just know that it's something I could never do. I would sooner sacrifice a few years of freedom than sacrifice the life of someone I had a part in creating.

I beleive there are ways to prevent these semi blessed events, birth control, spading and neutoring!;)

If you cannot pay the price for the band, then dont go to the dance!

Yes, and birth control also fails.

As for being spade or neutored, what if someone wants to have children later in life? Better yet, those kind of operations aren't cheap.

d

I think my own beliefs are best described as "extremely reluctantly pro-choice."

I can totally understand why a woman who was pregnant as a result of rape, incest, etc. would not want to go through with the pregnancy. I cannot fault her decision.

Also, when the mother's life is in danger or when the baby is so severly messed up that it will probably die anyway, again, I cannot fault anyone for making this decision.

These are, for me, the simple cases.

The harder ones are usually economic or "oh no!"

With both scenarios I can sympathize, but in both cases it just breaks my heart. Nine months is a long time - physically, financially, emotionally, mentally. I have never been pregnant so I cannot even imagine how complicated and confusing it must be to be in such a situation.

There are SOOOO many nice people that are desperate for a child of their own that would love to adopt a baby. There are waiting lists years long. It's so sad that one woman would do anything to NOT be pregnant and maybe just one block over lives another woman that would do anything to BE pregnant.

Of course, again, I've never been in this situation, so I just don't think I have the right to judge anyone. But it just makes me so SAD, the whole thing.

What really ticks me off are the "repeat offenders" - the women who are careless over and over with their protection. Not, oops my method failed this one time, but geez, here we go again. What's especially awful is how hypocritical some people can be - I found out recently that my soon-to-be-ex roommate had an abortion a couple years ago. A couple months ago when she and our other roommate and I were discussing birth control, she told us that "P____ pulls out." :eek: HELLO! The girl is 26 years old now, shouldn't she know better? Plus who knows what she was doing with that other boyfriend to protect herself. Now also keep in mind that this charming girl likes to preach to other people on what horrible sinners they are - told me I was "slutty" for dancing with a guy friend at a bar :rolleyes: and told our other roommate that by reading Harry Potter to her 10 year old brother she was "endangering his soul"! :eek:

The problem, as someone already stated, is that there really isn't a way to screen out the unlucky ones from the careless and stupid ones.

I don't think it's unfair to require a short waiting period - i.e. maybe 24 hours tops. Go home and sleep on it. Here's some fair unbiased information about your options, risks for both the surgical procedure and risks for carrying a pregnancy to term. Emotional issues that might confront you if you chose abortion,m adoption or keeping your baby. Think about it and come back tomorrow and we will help you with your decision.

On that note, I do NOT like any of the proposals that force consent from some third party other than the woman. It's her decision to make, and while I know how I hope she decides, it is ultimately her decision. Even the parents with minor daughters - it would be absolutely horrible for some poor girl to be driven to seek a dangerous illegal abortion because she can't face her parents. In some really tragic cases, she may face abuse at home or someone at home may even be the father.

I also think that all the meanies who are harrassing the poor women going to the clinics and threatening or attacking those who work there need to shut the heck up and get real lives. :mad:

Again, back to my main point - abortions are SAD. I would love for politicians to not feel that they have to swing so far to one side. It seems like all we hear are "Abortions all the time on demand!" or "It's a sin! No abortions ever!"

Just once I would like to hear a politician say that while they realize that they shouldn't interfere in someone else's personal choice, the whole thing makes them really sad and they really wish there was a better option.

...ok, enough of the soapbox...

I am pro- life...all the way, for various reasons. And I am very passionate about this too!

I was raised knowing that I have to take responsibility for my actions. I knew, even as a child, that there would be tons of circumstances when I would have to choice on many things- and most of the time there would be consequences to those decisions. I have just learned to apply this in every aspect of my life.

Basically, I believe that you make a CHOICE- to have sex- knowing full well you can become pregnant. If you have sex, be ready to take responsibilty- we're talking about a baby- a human being. I just can't fathom abortion being the answer- for many reasons. I don't think I could live with myself, knowing I caused any pain to MY child. And I have known women (one very close to me) who've had abortions- and it totally is hard on them. It's something you have to deal with every day. It kinda hits close to home too. My real sister got pregnant- and was considering terminating the pregnancy- but in the end, she decided she couldn't go through with it. Now, I have the sweetest nephew ever. I figure that if you get pregnant, and for whatever reason, you're not ready for being a parent, choose adoption. There are so many women who can't have kids.

I am totally against abortion unless there are certain serious cases in which a girl was raped or something like that, other than that I believe that if you are going to choose to do the deed you are definitly choosing the responsibility that comes along with it. I do not believe that just because you were young or you "made a mistake" that you should take another innocent human being's life. They dont deserve that.
I have many more feelings on this issue but Im getting sleepy and dont wanna write alot.
Nicholi

I just wanted to say thank you to those that are pro-life but still don't think the government should step in and demand all of us be pro-life. Thank you as you make me feel that it is my body and my choice and hopefully this will always be protected.

While I am reading everyone' s posts this AM I keep seeing people mentioning the adults, but i can't help to bring up that if people are in these situations the baby who is born is also in the situation. When making this decision I am sure most women do not take it lightly, I can't help but think they are not only think about their situation but also the kind of life they would or could provide for a child. It is not just a few years of freedom you give up-it is a lifetime of commitment. The commitment becomes less when the child becomes an adult but I have seen what a huge commitment children require and if you are not financially sound or do not have a significant other than that commitment becomes very difficult. I was listening to the radio on my way home from work today and there was a mother on the radio-she just had her third child, just got divorced this year, has no job, no support from her husband and now her kids are going to have nothing for christmas-no christrmas dinner, no toys, no clothes, nothing-that breaks my heart. I would rather someone have an abortion than put a child through a lifetime of hunger or hurt. I wish everyone was responsible like the people on this thread but many are not-that is reality.

BTW does anyone have any statistics on adoption, my understanding from various news reports is that there is a waiting list for caucasian babies but there are not enough homes for minority babies and unfortunately many of these end up in foster care or an orphanage-is this correct?

JAM,

It seems like you took one statement of a very long post out of context a bit. :confused: Just to clarify, my complete statement was the following:

I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made. Of course, if you ask, they will mention that they think about how their lives would have turned out if they had decided to go through with the pregnancy. But there is not a single woman who has expressed regret to the point where if she could turn back the clock she would change her mind. All of them are content with the road they took and not a one feels that she made a poor decision...except for the girl who gave her baby up for adoption at the direction of her mother instead of following her own wishes and having an abortion.

I am not saying that these women didn't debate their decision to have an abortion long and hard before they took action. And I'm not saying that they never think about what having a child might have been like. All I'm saying is that they can look back on their decision -- still today -- and feel certain that they made the right choice, for themselves and their unborn child.

They were in NO position to have those children at that stage in their lives, and they were intelligent enough to realize it and responsible enough to do something about it. They have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty about, and NO ONE should try to lay blame or guilt at their feet, especially strangers who know little to nothing about their situations. That's the problem I have with pro-life protesters. They know absolutely nothing about the women to whom they are making disparaging comments, so who gave them the right to judge? The answer is: no one.

My views on the issue have changed dramatically over the years. I've had two very close friends go through an abortion. I also have a cousin who had 10 miscarriages before being able to take a baby to term. Myself, well, I have a condition that may mean I can't have kids.

Anyway, for me personally, I couldn't do it. I cannot make that decision for others though, and dont' think its appropriate that white haired old men on capital hill should have a say in it either. Its a personal choice, so I guess I'm pro-choice.

I don't condone having multiple abortions (like my old roommate did) or using it as a method of birth control.

Would like to say thank you and your welcome to the person who thanked us pro-lifers that believeeven though we dont agree with it, its a persons choice and that we are not trying to force opnions on people. Not all of us are psycho's :). Thats first.

How I have to agree with Earp, yes it does fail, but you can always double up (pill and condom, as I said before, but NEVER use two condoms, cuz ha ha it rips quicker and easier, learned that in 7 grade health). If both fail, call me, and you can say I told you so a million times and tell me to shut it ;)

I agree with aggieAXO! Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread so far. I think all of us, no matter what stance we have on this issue, have handled this discussion like level-headed adults and I really do appreciate that. If everyone else in the good old USA would do the same, we'd all be a little better off! :)

I know personally more than one woman who fell pregnant using the pill AND condoms. It happens, and it happens more often than most people think. Don't even get me started on the fact that some women can't take the pill or other hormonal contraceptives. :-P I can't, for reasons I won't delve into here.

And frankly, I'm not sure if I EVER want to have children, and I use birth control religiously, but I'm not so sure about not having children that I'm ready to get "fixed." And even if I was, good luck trying to find a doctor willing to do that to a woman under 30 who's never had children...and even then it's difficult.

dzrose, I don't want to get in a shouting match over this as I respect ALL your posts, past and present. I am sure I will find several future posts by you that I applaud. I was a tad put off as you took every paragraph I posted and argued every point. (or so it seemed) When I read that statement, yes, it hit me hard as I can remember a dog I hit on a road and STILL "regret" I couldn't have done something to prevent it.

Nothing in this WORLD will convince one side or the other that their opinion is wrong. As passionately as one can argue that "It's MY body", others can argue NO, you're talking about TWO bodies, yours and a defenseless baby and YES, it IS a baby, make no mistake.

My examples of the government were not to imply I think the government should control or pass laws, it was merely an example of the value some people place on animals as compared to humans. Who posted-we have to protect the endangered species...there are too many people as it is..."Now, I'm sorry, but that is just "out there"-comparing a human to an ANIMAL!

Maybe it is my religous upbringing, maybe it's because I had an ultrasound during pregnancy, maybe it's because I believe from the moment of conception there is a soul. We are who we are and our beliefs are a reflection of our experieces.

As a finale note, because it's too disturbing to revisit this thread, I would like to say-
Freedom, sexual or otherwise comes with a price. Too bad some choose to make the baby pay for their own mistakes.

Maybe I'm just a dirty stinking idealist, but I have a big problem with the idea of pregnancy and a child being used as a punishment for having sex.

Breaking it down?
 

Let's break it down to a few fundamental points, and see how we all differ in terms of definition:

1 - At what point does a "human life" begin? (JAM - now would be the time to provide cites for comments like "a baby feels pain at 6 weeks" . . . ) This is subjective, and is NOT strictly clinically defined - how do you all feel on the topic?


2 - To what extent can we extend 'beliefs' into 'legal authority'? This, quite simply, asks if you feel a law against abortion actually makes sense, from a moral and legal standpoint.


Open it up ladies and gentlemen . . .

I think this question has been debated since day 1. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs, and there will never be a day when everyone unites and comes to a conclusion when it comes to abortion. What an individual wants to do in their own life is their business...I have no right to dictate what they are allowed to do..and other people shouldnt try to dictate what I do in my own. There will never be agreement to issues like abortion or gun control..but thats the best part of our country...we are allowed to have different opinions.

Amen to that. :)

One of my hometown buddies recently had a baby boy. His fiance is on the pill and he has used a condom every time they've had sex to avoid having a kid. So, it can still happen, and still does happen. Just a point of info.

now, shut up! (lol, just kidding about that, but i had to throw it in there :) )

d

Re: Breaking it down?
 

To be quite honest, i do not know or have an opinion on when life begins. I would like to say that the human life begins when it is conceived, but i don't say that. This topic is a really confusing point because some consider it life at the point of conception, because life has been formed. Others argue that it doesn't begin at conception because the lifeform depends on the mother for survival. As does a newborn baby, or a 9 month old baby and so on.


d

Just a mom-
I totally agree with you!!! I love reading your posts!!!

:D

It's a little different to depend on the mother by living inside of her body, feeding off the nutrients in her bloodstream, enlarging her organs and putting a strain on all of her major systems, as opposed to living outside of someone else's body and just needing the everyday things everyone does.

My view is sort of like this: Say your sister needs a kidney transplant. Sure, you have more than one kidney, it PROBABLY wouldn't kill you, and it would certainly be the altruistic thing to do, but - no one can legally force you to donate your kidney to someone else, no matter what. And I don't think anyone should be able to legally force any woman to basically donate her entire body to her fetus, even if for "only" nine months (but it's never "only" nine months...it's not like once you're done being pregnant the memory's erased or the result is out of sight and mind).

I'm talking about legality here. You can consider it right or wrong or WHATEVER, but to be able to legally force someone to do something - no. I think the KKK is abhorrent and I wish they'd disappear off the face of the Earth, but I'll defend to my death their right to say whatever they want. Because with every right comes some things we may not like, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected. With the right to free speech comes hate groups; with the right to medical privacy comes a woman's right to choose abortion. Like it or not.

Pro Choice.

Pro-choice
 

I'm Pro-choice. I would never tell someone that they couldn't do it, but I don't agree with women who use it as a method of birth control or late term abortions. I know someone who had one later on in her pregnancy and she almost died from it. :( With all that said who am I to tell any other woman what to do with their body, but I could never do it myself.

I'm definitely pro-choice. I think it's a personal choice for the woman, and that it's not up to me, the government, or anyone else to tell a woman whether she should keep a baby or not. Now, I'm not in favor of late-term abortions - I think the choice should be made early, and I think there are some very understandable reasons for making the choice early. However, I would never want to take away a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. There's a lot more to how I feel with the issue, I could go on for a while about it, but that's where I'll leave it for now.

Collin

My take
 

Personally I could not abort a fetus living inside of me, but I do think every woman should have a chance to decide for herself.

If I were in my own perfect world, though, adoption would replace every case of abortion, but I know it's not always possible that way.

I am mostly pro-life (read the post that I just wrote for more info on that), but I am totally against bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors who perform such operations. I am against killing in general (well except for those who are criminals like Timothy McVeigh for example), and bombing clinics and killing doctors would go totally against my beliefs.

I think that that's just an immature, ineffective way to try to end abortion. Protests are one thing, bombing and murder are another...

Re: To relpy to damasa first......
 

I consider myself a "conservative Democrat" and am pro-life and in favor of the death penalty. Some people are like, "You sure you're a Democrat?" :p

DukeBlue, good point about how a woman "donates" her body for 9 months. I could not imagine being FORCED into donating my body to nourish and carry and support something that I didn't want. That is absolutely terrifying! I cannot think of anything more inappropriate for the government or anyone else to force upon another person.

I don't want to say much on this topic, because this is one, like so many others, about which I am very, very opinionated, and my opinions are set and will never, ever change. I am absolutely, completely, 100% pro-choice. I don't think that there should be ANY government interference whatsoever involved in stifling a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason. There is nobody who should sit as judge and jury to tell a woman, well, you were raped, so it's okay, or you are just irresponsible, so now you have to suffer the consequences. Once governmental controls start being created, women will lose more and more control over their own bodies.

I remember reading the abortion cases in law school, and I would get SO mad. I am completely against things like parental notification and 24 hour waiting periods. If you are a good, supportive parent and your daughter gets pregnant, she probably will tell you. If she doesn't feel comfortable telling you, well, that is your fault, and you shouldn't expect the government to force her to do something that you have made her feel she can't. Waiting periods are an insult to women everywhere. What they are really saying is -- you are fragile, weak and stupid. Here, let me give you some information, and you go home and rest your pretty little, silly head and "think" about this for a while. That just steams me.

Women are powerful, and we need to remember that and stand up for our rights. My mom, bless her heart, is a republican but pro-choice. When I explain to her that putting a conservative republican (like W) in the white house will likely result in conservative supreme court justices which will likely result in a drastic change in the current law which would likely result in the elimination of a woman's right to choose in at least some states, her response is always, "Oh, that won't happen." It very well might, and as I always say (she thinks I'm nuts) -- oppression of one woman is oppression of ALL women, myself included.

I agree with valkyrie 1000%. Our generation grew up when Roe was safe and sound, before the days of illegal abortions and the "Monday lines" of botched abortions outside of emergency rooms and all that came with it being outlawed, we were raised in a time when a woman's right to choose was a given, sometimes protested but never under serious threat - so many assume it will always be that way, just because it always was during our lives. People tell me I'm being paranoid or worrying about something that won't happen, but I can't be complacent when it comes to my rights, my civil rights, my right to control my own body and life and my right to medical privacy. Remember history, lest we repeat it.

my father often said...
 

I grew up in a staunch Republican household. Dad's been a fiscally conservative member of the NRA since 1955, and votes a straight Republican ticket. However, he and I are pro-choice for the same reason:

Thomas Jefferson once said "The government that governs best is the government that governs LEAST." I don't believe in the government telling me about a choice I can't or shouldn't have. I also wonder: If they start with outlawing abortion, where will they stop? Will developmentally disabled people be sterilized? What else won't I be able to do with my own body. I realize that's kind of an extreme example, but you get what I mean.

Wow! I just read through all the posts. Great points on both sides. I also have to say, I learned some interesting facts. I never knew doctors could flush the uterus in the first 24-48 hours to prevent pregnancy.

I am pro-choice. I support the right of every woman to choose. When I was faced with an unplanned pregnancy, I chose to have my baby. Not because I thought abortion was murder or wrong or anything like that, but because I simply wanted my baby. I knew it was going to be hard, but I had the support of my honey who said he would support me either way and he did. I was scared of going home after graduating from college and having to tell my grandmother (she raised me) that instead of going to grad school as I planned, I was pregnant and moving to the Virgin Islands. But I did it. She didn't take it very well and didn't speak to me for MONTHS. But she got over it as most parents do.

What really bothers me is when a woman doesn't have an abortion because of all the reasons stated in some of the posts, but then she shoot drugs during the preganancy, neglects, abuses, and perhaps even murders her child later on because she just wasn't ready or was incapable of caring for the child. I know not all abuses occur because of this reason. However, deciding to have a baby is the EASY part believe it or not. Pregnancy, childbirth and the next 18 years (whether you raise the child or not) is the HARD part.

I'm not saying abortion is the answer to these scenarios. I'm not an idiot. However, I think it is wrong to bring a child into the world to be raised by unfit parents. But people do it EVERY DAY and others sit by and watch and don't say a word. Where are the rallies then?

Playing the Devils Lil Advocate.....
 

OK, so we all agree that the government does not have the right to tell us what we can and cannot do to a certain extent, correct? OK this was brought up on Politically Incorrect one night with the whole abortion stance and think there is a valid point to it when you look deep into it. Im not saying its right or wrong, but think about it......

If we dont want the government saying what we can do with our bodies and etc, why is that we want the govern to step in and tell a man pay child support? Just like its our body, its his money. He's was basically trying to say that a man should have a equal say in what happens to the child, if the govern. is gonna tell him he has to pay for it. In a weird way I can see his point. :eek:

But the thing is, biology makes it "unfair" - the woman will always have more say over what happens to a pregnancy simply because she's the one who is pregnant, she's the one doing the work of pregnancy and childbirth and probably most of the childrearing if she continues the pregnancy, so to give the man an equal say in that when all he did was ejaculate and she's the one going through nine months and birth and blah blah blah...the woman has to have more of a say simply because of nature.