Maybe you didn't get what I said before...but this thread is POINTLESS!

APO and GSS will continue to be service orgs and the NPHC orgs will continue to be service and social orgs. Although where service is concerned our paths are similar, I don't see why there should be contraversy, but there is. If the APO and GSS on HBCU campuses wanted to create an identity for themselves that is similar to NPHC orgs...then so be it...and if my fellow NPHC brethren have a problem with it...then they just do. MOVE ON! Talk about something worth talking about. This discussion is rather old!

------------------
The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

I agree, PrettyKitty! It's all love here.

In Service,
gamma_girl

RainMan-

Why don't we talk about your animosity towards NPHC organizations as part of this thread? You seem to have a bug up your butt about NPHC organizations. Why is that your threads and posts always tend to point out something you perceive as negative about us, the 06/08/11/11/13/14/20/22/63 family.

SHEESH!

ZetaAce

Will everybody just SIMMA DOWN NOW!!!! No matter the letter, we're ALL Greek together!! I'm an APO Brother, and I love all my bros' and sisters in any GLO (BGLO, WGLO, NPC, NPHC, Service, Social, Professional, Honor Society) Spread the love, bury the hate, and everyone benefits!

In L, F, and S,

-Gerald

If you learned something from Rain Man's insightful posts, raise your hand.....did u see any hands up?

NEWays,

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to BGLO's and inquiring minds want to know why? Who sent you a rejection letter in college that you are still bitter about? Why is it that you spend all your time bashing BGLO's on this General Forum and NO TIME on your OWN ORG's Forum?

I say this conversation is OLD, because it's just that...OLD. There is a similar thread that began last year in reference to yet the same beef. If you use your fingers to do some searching, you'll see it and see why I called it OLD!

Sometimes you perpetuate Drama when there doesn't need to be just by bringing things up. I think the answer to your question, which I am sure you already knew, could have been better answered off this board without this public debacle.

One of my Sister Sorors sent you an email off this list asking your questions that you chose not to respond to, instead you further perpetuate drama by posting on this board getting salty with me.

Why waste time and energy talking about old news. You've been in APO how many years? 10, 15, 20? And in those years in your org. you are going to tell me that you NEVER spoke to a member of BGLO's in reference to this "beef" we supposedly have with you all?

Never did I say I was trying to infringe upon anyone's right to post...but that has naught to do with the fact that this string is POINTLESS and should be closed, IMHO. One of your own Soror's agreed me!

B4 APO and GSS people get upset, I am not talking about you...and don't have beef with you...but I'd really like to know why Rain Man is preoccupied with BGLO's and trying to put us down! From the people I have known or met in APO and GSS they seem to be positive folk, so I am having time trying to understand why there is a need to perputuate drama and negativity, when there doesn't need to be...


------------------
The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

We're all calm. At this point our issue is not with APO or GSS as a whole. Honestly, it never really was about APO and GSS as a whole, it was about RAINMAN. This thread should be renamed "Rainman vs. the NPHC - Why the animosity" He's the one pointing all the fingers talking about how we don't do this and how we're not representing well, sitting in a place of judgement of the NPHC all the while condemning us for the "Big I, Little You" attitude he thinks there is. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

[This message has been edited by 12dn94dst (edited April 25, 2001).]

Kelli, your email is now ready! I hope it helps sum up yours, and others' concerns as well.

As far as Pretty Kitty and company, I will just say this:

Let's go to a commercial break *Match Game theme music plays in the background*

Let me say first, I have no experience with the 25/52 fam. But I do have some comments on this thread.

Maybe some things are superficial to you, but they may not be superficial to others.

It really kind of ticks me off when someone tries to tell me how to feel about my sorority and its symbols. And then to make a comment about someone's self esteem?! There are many things about Ideal08 that are unique to her, and to have someone "copy" it would tick me off (hair styles, clothes, etc.). It's not about my self-esteem, it's about having your OWN style.

Hand signs, calls, colors, those things may not make up our orgs, but they are still a part of the org. And they are just as important (at least to me) as the service that we provide.

Maybe it's superficial to you because these things have no (as Doggystyle put it) historical basis to you. They don't MEAN anything to you. And if it's so superficial, then why do you want to take part in it? Like twirling your blue and gold cane? If you are just doing it to exhibit talent, why not a baton? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Hmph...

Well how about this...I even did the research for you: Do a search on:

APO/GSS relations with NPHC Hmmm July 23, 2000 Greek Life

and you will see what I mean...


------------------
The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

*commercial ends, show fades back in. Rain Man and GCers on Match Game set. Rain Man is center stage buried in baby blue 4 x 6 index cards, one of which written in black Magic Marker: "Another victim of a school riot". Rain Main gets up from the mountain of cards, takes Gene Rayburn's long stemmed microphone and addresses Ideal08*

Ideal, I will be flat out honest with you in your question: Because I like it, I think it possesses finesse, and I think it is nonsense that I should be "prohibited" from following suit because I have not been exposed to a certain ritual, historical meaning or not. Why don't I twirl a baton? Because that is not my preference.

*Rain Man goes to the round indicator located near the contestant podiums and pushes the button which reveal the next round's questions*

Would like like Question A or B?

Dag,

I thought there would be some finality to the awarness of this issue. The phantom issue as some people believe. I really don't think that Rainman hasn't met a NPHC org member that wasn't condesending. Because every one in Alpha Phi Omega or Gamma Sigma Sigma has met and hung with people of every organization. But also, there is a consistent amount of ignorance that seems to perpetuate itself from year to year. And while it may not be on this post in this discussion, it's there all over the net.
This is not a slam on all NPHC orgs. It's individuals that are in these orgs that talk condesendingly about Non-NPHC orgs.

The real question is where do we go after we've realize that there is a issue, and not a phantom one. The answer actually lies in the NPHC organizations themselves. Some campuses have already took steps. I've seen the Alpha's Inviting Gamma Sigma Sigma to one of their step shows. If you are an member of
a NPHC org and you find this disturbing, maybe that phantom is in you.

JayBEE!

RainMan, I just don't understand why it is so important for you to have acceptance and acknowledgment from the NPHC. You know what your organization is all about, so keep it at that. Why do you care so much what we or anyone else thinks about you?! Maybe you don't care, but you really sound like someone who is insecure about the choice you made and your organization (not saying you should be).

[This message has been edited by DST Love (edited April 25, 2001).]

RM

You say APO is not a cookie cutter organization, I am not sure tat I would say any organization is. APO, like any other GLO does have formally recognized traditions and symbols, I am sure (and your National Website does a very good job laying htem out.) While you stress this all encompassing commitment to diversity, not in membership but in traditions and practices, it is interesting that your National Website does not reflect that at all.

As to my question that you could not follow- I would clarify but JayBEE did address it to some end. I was wondering how is that you KNEW that all Black or predominantly Black chapters of APO and GSS did not begin to step, call etc. because they were imitating BGLO's? As JayBEE pointed out, there are some APO/GSS chapters who have been ding it for a long time and unless you were there you cannot tell me that it came from some other desire than to do what they saw other GLO's with Black people in them doing any more than I can definitively tell you it came from some such a desire.

There seem to be three issues at pay here:
the stepping thing, the acceptance thing and the animosity you personally seem to display towards BGLO's. (the last one being particularly curious since when this topic was raised last year by you, the tone was not quite as harsh and you indicated a desire to pursue membership in a BGLO.)

You have not clearly addressed the issue of the need for acceptance although it has been posed several times. Again, why the need?

Also, why the need to put so many characteristics of us "social" orgs in your service org (although social is a misnomer to me because Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. is a service sorority.)

You say the root of the issue is unknown to you but the issue raised has to do with stepping, strolling, etc. You call it trivial and bullcrap but that is not petty stuff and worthy of taking up the time of your or our National Officers? PUHLEAZE! Honestly, you would have to come a little better than your kids don't want to play with my kids or they don;t like our toys for me to believe this requiresthe involvemlent of anyone's NAtional HQ. This seems to be a local issue exclusive to those campuses where APO/GSS are sen as trying to represent like other BGLO's. Deal with it where it matters.

As far as members of APO/GSS being questioned by some about who they are and what they do, etc.- it happens. Considering your organization supposedly varies wildly from campus to campus (APO in particular, some all male chapters, other co-ed chapters, some have this symbol, others have that symbol, some focus on service only, others want to have line names and calls) is there any wonder people may not be clear/ familliar with who you are?

As well known as my illustrious Sisterhhod is people ask me all the time what DST is. No matter how they come at me, I always answer them with the patience and tact that a member of DST should display. I think if you already have a chip on your should, it easy to be rubbed the wrong way. Everyone starts to look like a hater after a while.

Like anything in life- if someone hates on yiou- get over it and move on. If they are indiffernt towards you, get over it and move on. You should alwayswork for change for the better but you cannot make someone accept you.

Stop skirting the issue. Before we can say if anything is real, even this problem, we need a working defenition of what is real. What is reality????

OK, Kimmie, now I can address your concerns by paragraph:

P1 - Believe it or not, I agree with you, and that is something I and other brothers have tried to demonstrate to Nationals, but to no avail (Hey, we aren't perfect either!)

P2 - In all fairness, unless we can get confirmation one way or another from those who were there at the time, none of us here can say anything; at this time it is all pure speculation.

P3 - Because to be frank, I don't like my org being treated as a second class org. And I don't like the vibes I get from folx that my pledging was any less important or meaningful than theirs. I put my pants on the same way as everybody else.

P4 - Because I was brought into the fold under that premise. 'Nuff said.

P5 - If you would like a copy of the letter our M&E sent out to the NPHC, email me.

Time for a commercial break *Match Game music plays in the background*

Some Match Game ticket plugs: www.geocities.com/jmadindian2/mgtix81.mp3 www.geocities.com/jmadindian2/mgtix80.mp3

[This message has been edited by Rain Man (edited April 25, 2001).]

Where can I go to see Alpha Phi Omega's that brand, wear gold boots, step, and twirl? Does it happen on non-HBCU campuses. I am not trying to be an ass, I am just asking. The 25/52 family on my campus does nothing like that. They have nothing at all to do with NPHC.

------------------
...I am standing on the shoulders of giants...

I can only speak for my own campus (not a HBCU) and say that it would have been an extremely sorry sight if my APO chapter would have tried to step. We would have been falling on our faces and then some. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'd like to give 2 snaps up (and a high five) to all the NPHC ladies who contributed to this thread for their EXCELLENT posts.

RM, rather old thought for you to chew on: You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Thanks 33girl for the compliment.

ahhkbah, I have a tape of a Savannah State University (an HBCU) homecoming step show in which the APO chapter stepped in gold boots. If you'd like to see it, let me know & I'll dig it up for you.

Here are some campuses to check out, akhbah:

Floriday A&M University (Kappa Delta)
They just had a pro show that was the BOMB on April 11th.

Fort Valley State University (Phi Zeta)
They had a fantastic step show last month

Tuskeegee University (Pi Zeta)
Lamar University (Kappa Alpha)
Prairie View A&M University (Sigma Pi)
Texas Southern University (Tau Zeta)
Austin Peay State University (Upsilon Alpha)
Tennessee State University (Psi Phi)
Dillard University (Chi Upsilon)
Grambling State University (Chi Nu)

These are just to name a few

Hope this helps

Rain Man

33girl, 12dn94dst, Rain Man
Thanks for all of your replies. That has helped me out a lot.

Peace

------------------
...I am standing on the shoulders of giants...

12dn94dst I'd like to see that tape. I would have e-mailed you but my computer won't connect me to my email right now...technology.

------------------
...I am standing on the shoulders of giants...

YAY, one of my alma maters! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif
Just have to do a shout-out!

OH, and to add to the convo, at our school you would not find NON-NPHC orgs stepping in the greek show.

I think that ONE TIME KKPsi POSSIBLY stepped during the intermission, while the judges totaled the scores, that was about it.

Maybe it is pointless to you, but it may not be to others. If this issue(s) and discussions don't appeal to you, turn a deaf ear/blind eye and don't read or post to this thread. It's really that simple.

Please don't infringe on our right to post issues that we feel are relevant and/or important.

Thank you.

Rain Man
_____________________________________________
Get ready to match the stars, from "Charlie's Angels", David Doyle, Brett Sommers, Charles Nelson Reilly, from "M*A*S*H", Loretta Swit, Scoey Mitchell, and Fannie Flagg, as we play the star-studded, big money Match Game '79!

Sista Kelly, were members of Omega Psi Phi in attendance at this event? I can't imagine this travesty being allowed without severe repercussions. When the Iota Colony at TSU attempted to do the same thing, they were taught a lesson in NPHC etiquette with a quickness. Oh well, different campuses, different flava I guess.

BTW, there is a famous comedian in LA who is an APO but is claiming to be a member of my fraternity, from my chapter, from my year!! I was told this by comedian Steve Harvey. After, I picked my jaw up off the floor, I quickly informed "Mr. Hightower" that he was dealing with a perp.

No, the Bruhs were not there, they were suspended at the time and no other Bruhs made the trip to that show. The chapter came off suspension the quarter following the show. Now that I think about it, that was the first & last time I saw APOs in gold boots in public like that.

Cool. Like I said, I have to dig it up. I'll let you know when I find it.

RM - Is this Lamar University in Beaumont, TX? Just curious, cause if so it's the only non-HBCU on the list and in my hometown. Just being nosey.

KKPsi steps at the annual show the Kappas put on. I attend a REALLY REALLY predominantly white university, so most of the teams are usually from other schools. Of course our KKPsi chapter is lily-white.. so when the ones from PV went to steppin we were like WHAAAA?? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif I never knew.

Skeet Skeet!!!

Wassup Rain Man, I see you've been holding it down.

What I've seen in here is typical of what we have been getting over the years.

The Question: "Why the need?" is all over this page. Let me explain.....

Kimmie1913 - "This seems to be a local issue exclusive to those campuses where APO/GSS are sen as trying to represent like other BGLO's.

This statement, althought carefully orchestrated as to attempt to not offend, comes off as still being condensending. Because it assumes that APO/GSS are seen as trying to represent AS other BGLO's. Not
Just being who they want to be. The problem is how we are preceived by individuals who don't know the history behind us. We are new to them.

Why the need?

Kimmie1913 - (APO in particular, some all male chapters, other co-ed chapters, some have this symbol, others have that symbol, some focus on service only, others want to have line names and calls) is there any wonder people may not be clear/ familliar with who you are?

Ahhh, the need is clear and we have come full circle. It is very evident that people need to know. It "can" be very confusing. But the confusion should not lead to anger. It should lead to curiosity.

Why the need?


ahhkbah - The 25/52 family on my campus does nothing like that. They have nothing at all to do with NPHC.

Every where you see a APO and/or GSS group you do not see a 25/52 group. Some campuses as we stated earlier are not in the 25/52 family. You see, in the 25/52 family all the members of the fraternity are men and all the sisters in the sorority are female. Then you have individuals that are at coed chapters which carry themselves totally different. All the Alpha Phi Omega brothers in all male chapter 25/52 chapters consider all the males Ay-Phi-Que from their rich heritage. And you are correct, they do not have anything to do with the NPHC. I saw some brothers in Ay-Phi-Que recently get Branded. And they've been doing that for a long time. Gold Boots, Army Boots, Call, What does it matter? Why does stepping attire matter? I've seen Iota's stepping in Gold Boots. Dang! That goes right in there with some DST sister putting a check on a GSS sister about the color marron that they wear. It's pointless. If you have gold in your national colors, why get checked for wearing anything gold.

Why the Need?

33girl - I can only speak for my own campus (not a HBCU) and say that it would have been an extremely sorry sight if my APO chapter would have tried to step. We would have been falling on our faces and then some.

Hello brother 33girl. You probably haven't seen anything like APQbrothers and GSSsisters
comming together in a step show, saying the Call Skeet Skeet, or calling themselves Vikings or frat with a brand on his shoulder.
But that's okay. Just as white GLO's and Black GLO's are different, so is the contigency of the 25/52 family and Coed Chapters. We do are thing because, as the
NPHC grows, we "Service Greeks" refused to be squeezed out by condesending "NPHC Orgs".

Why the need?

Because if we continue to not enlighten others of who we are, then assumptions will reign. And because I already know that they
have talked negatively about our orgs to individuals, discussing our legitamacy in just the greek system alone. There always a
need. Like Kimmie1913 said, It happens. If you do not stand up for your org, then you legitamize what is being said about your org.

The question was "Why the animosity?". Stated as such to located it and review it and shed light to it if necessary. That's all. Because there is a need for a general unstanding. Especially from the people that
refuse to inquire and attempt to explain what they've seen with the knowledge they should acquire first.

If we began 5 years ago doing this and that, I would be more receptive, maybe. Even then
if what I was doing was simular it would have to be identical for me to even ask all chapters to change what we do/did.

What do the 25/52 family expect from the NPHC orgs? Something simple as respect. Why the NPHC orgs? because that has been where the disrespect has came from. And that may not be in your area but it's been in several areas. Every org that access this page may not be even aware of this consending character that we feel runs rampet. That has doesn't say that it doesn't exist. And if we have educated one today, then that'll be on less attitude that we have to come across tommorrow.

Much love to all the GLO's, because we are all brothers and sisters. I just happen to be a Ay-Phi-Que Viking!

Skeet Skeet!

JayBEE!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!

Leave my frat out of this debate. I have talked to my frat that I have seen wear Gold boots and told them that is not cool (other bros. have told them too). That is part of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc.'s history and is their tradition.

This is about APO doing those things, not NPHC orgs. and other BGLOs doing those things. Keep the discussion focused on that because you will open up a can of worms that need not be opened (even though the lid has been cracked already).


I for one respect the HISTORY of all GLOs. But when I see something done NOT in one's history I begin to wonder. (I feel like "do your own thing and be original" *for that reason is why I chose Iota*)

Let's leave it at that.

One luv APO/GSS, NPHC, BGLO's, and GLOs in general!


*Dag and I was not going to say anything until you put my fam up in it*

it just gets better.... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

so do you consider the "non-25/52 chapters" as your real frat and real sorors? and how do you non-family members (if there are any on this board) feel about this statment?

are ya'll not in the same organization(s)? why the separatist attitude?

No dear, y'all are in the NPHC and are "guilty" by association. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Sorry.

So do you consider the "non-25/52 chapters" as your real frat and real sorors?


I love answering questions of the curious. Because it a growth opportunity for either party. Yes they are our real fraternity brothers and real sorority sisters.

and how do you non-family members (if there are any on this board) feel about this statment?

They are always around. Most of them do not care. Because they have there own family right in there coed chapter and near by chapters.

Are ya'll not in the same organization(s)?

Yes we are.

Why the separatist attitude?

It's not an attitude, it's a state of being. I was told by a white female that she could stand white who acted black. What? What's that? If you are on a predominately black campus the enviorment is very different than if you were on a predominately white campus. Greek life also varies between the predominately black GLO's and predominately white GLO's and Hispanic.

This separation is nothing new. It's a natural flow. The Bayou Classic is a huge event in the state of Louisania, but even if you love college football you wouldn't see that many people other than black. Tennessee State University has a near 30 percent enroll ment of people other than black, but when they have games or campus events you do not even see them. Why? do yo think that is?

Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma is like the United States in that you have a large contingency of the different races. And if you have a large number of one race with rich traditions within a their community of people, the way we are should not get flushed by anybody who don't think we ought to even be. Even though we carry those traditions from chapter to chapter, it is up to the chapter or individual who would like to be in the 25/52 family.

Keep asking and it will get even better

JayBEE!

I'm not in APO, but they are very, very big on my campus. This was my thought exactly after that post. I find it incredible that you can separate yourself from the rest of your national organization like that, and I know that it would totally dismay some of my really good friends who are in APO that have the org 100% in their heart. All I can say is wow.

Like I said before it is not a seperatist attitude. It's a state of being. I will never be who they are. They they will never be who we are. But when it comes to fellowship, service and organization, we can mix. We just don't have to run our chapter the same way. And Personally, I wouldn't want to.

You make me feel as though you thought that everybody is a chip off the block in an organization. It's not so, we have individuality within the organization. And you would have to believe that this special characterisic will be there.

Let me put it like this. Most coed chapters have pledging where they do scavenger hunts and play games with the pledges. We do things (let's just say) very differently than they do.

JayBEE!

Yes, Sweetest Diva, that is the Beaumont, TX campus of Lamar U.

I am going to give you a list of chapters where Alpha Phi Omega has represented at HBCUs or at non-HBCUs but are all male.

Here we go. Ready?

Johnson C. Smith U. (Delta Phi)
Howard U. (Zeta Phi)
Central State U. (Iota Epsilon)
FAMU (Kappa Delta)
Southern-BR (Kappa Lambda)
Xavier (Kappa Xi)
Wiley (Kappa Pi)
North Carolina A&T (Kappa Psi)--They used to be all-male, recently they returned coed.
Morgan State (Mu Gamma)
Bethune-Cookman (Nu Iota)
West Virginia State (Omicron Gamma)
Philander Smith (Pi Alpha)
Alabama A&M (Pi Epsilon)
Tuskeegee (Pi Zeta)
Kentucky State (Pi Omega)
Savannah State (Rho Epsilon)
U of Md. Eastern Shore (Rho Omicron)--After a futile attempt to recharter after spending 5 years as a petitioning group, the remaining 10 disbanded to form Theta Beta Phi Fraternity
Prairie View A&M (Sigma Pi)
Lincoln U. (Pa) (Sigma Omega)
Southern-NO (Tau Gamma)
Texas Southern (Tau Zeta)
Austin-Peay (Upsilon Alpha)
Clark-Atlanta (Upsilon Chi)
Norfolk State (Phi Mu)
Florida Memorial (Phi Phi)
Elizabeth City State (Chi Lambda)
Grambling (Chi Nu)
Dillard (Chi Upsilon)
Rust College (Psi Lambda)
Benedict (Psi Nu)
Alabama State (Psi Xi)
Morehouse (Psi Omicron)
Virginia State (Psi Sigma)
Albany State (Psi Tau)
Tennesse State (Psi Phi)
U. of Ark.-Pine Bluff (Psi Psi)
Tougaloo College (Omega Phi)
Jackson State (Omega Psi)
Barber Scotia (Alpha Alpha Iota)
Alcorn State (Alpha Alpha Lambda)
Morris (Alpha Beta Theta)

No new chapters have been chartered on an HBCU since 1985.

Some non-HBCU all-male chapters, past or present (includes chapters that were coed, yet segregated--asterisk indicates such)

U. of Pittsburgh (Beta)*
U. of Florida (Tau)
U. of Texas (Alpha Rho)*--This I found interesting, because the majority of our national presidents and national officers pledged this chapter
Kent State University (Epsilon Psi)
U. of Illinois-Carbondale (Zeta Nu)--After this group had their charter revoked at Convention for an alledged hazing incident, they formed Phi Rho Eta Fraternity.
Troy State University (Nu Omicron)
Miami-Dade Community College (Sigma Chi)
Tallahassee Community College (Alpha Alpha Tau)
Broward Community College (Alpha Beta Upsilon)

This list is by NO means all-inclusive.
Rain Man

I never saw any at Clark Atlanta. Is this recent?

Yes! This is a past and present listing.
APO has not been at theClark-Atlanta campus since 1994.

WTF

I don't see the need. Why because We're not cut from the same cloth. I could see if that, If I didn't agree with the principles of the organization.

Let take your own organization as an example. You joined because you believed what it stood for. So what if a guy began to see what you did in your organization. Would that make you change your views. Of course not. I join the organization. But that doesn't mean that we have to do the same romper room thing they do on their campus.

JayBEE!