A J.D. is pretty unique though in that you can take it and if you can find the right clients and work the cases right, you can make big money fast even if you're a solo from a T4 school.

Lawyers are uniquely able to be very successful in a self-employed capacity as many state bars make clients essentially the separate property of individual attorneys. If they leave the firm, their clients go with them. Also, law firms are not allowed to be owned by non-lawyers.

Even grads from Cooley can do very well for themselves.

But damn.. Cooley takes profiteering to a new low.

There are several AVMA accredited schools overseas so these grads don't have to go through hoops to get licensed. I don't know how marketable they are though. I figure if 60% of Texas A&M grads are having trouble finding work then overseas students will likley have a tougher time. We have a Ross grad working at my clinic and she is one smart cookie but for some reason A&M would not accept her. I got her the job because I knew her and talked my boss into hiring her. There is another Ross student that will graduate next year that use to be a tech for us-my boss will likely hire her as well. I think at this point it is a "who you know" kind of job market.

I read many of the veterinary threads on Student/Dr network and many of the pre-vets are disillusioned IMO. They think it is all about treating the animal no mattter what. Many forget there is an owner attached to the pet and that it is a business. If the owner can't or is unwilling to pay then you have to make a decision-are you going to treat for free, send them home and let the pet suffer or euthanize? The economy sucks and unfortunately animals are a luxury to many people. Just this week I had a lady complaining about an extra 5$ on her bill and how she needed to get a manicure:rolleyes:
Meanwhile, I have a parvo pup at the clinic right now that was going to be euthanized on Wednesday-I looked into his eyes and just couldn't do it-I have about 1500$ invested in him at this point. I hope he makes it:).

It use to be that veterinary hospitals could only be owned by vets and in some states this still holds true. But, corporations are taking over and with their deep pockets are able to somehow bypass this rule (think Banfield-the bane of most private practioner's existence). Students are graduating with so much debt now, many private practioners are in fear of not being able to sell to anyone but a corporation-it really is a sad state of affairs. I am glad I am close to getting out of the profession full time.

Yep. What you have in bold is what I struggled with. I'm getting better, though. It still aggravates me when they complain about the costs to run tests to see what's wrong. "Oh, that's too high. Why can't you tell me what's wrong?" The words of one my clients who hadn't taken his dog to see a vet in years. The dog was limping, 7 years old, and his body was covered with what looked like tumors, to me. The dog was coughing, and he thought it was kennel cough. Not seeing a vet in 7 years? That "kennel cough" could be anything. Probably heartworms. :( Long story short, I didn't run the tests, because he didn't want to pay for it. I see this a lot, and I still struggle with it, at times.

eta: Keep us posted (in the random thread) on that patient. :)

I think you have to go into law school with the right mindset. My bf is entering the app process and he has come to the decision that if he doesn't get into a T1 school, he's not going and will improve his resume for the next cycle.

Yet two of his friends scored low on the LSAT and think the T3/T4 schools they're going to are the ticket to the promised land. Delusional people ruin it for everyone else

I wish architecture and engineering were like that. If I leave, I lose my clients automatically. Typically, if a senior architect or engineer leaves, the clients will stay unless the firm is just piss-poor or if the client is only there because of said engineer or architect.

I don't doubt that Cooley grads can do well for themselves. I live behind a courthouse, and I definitely see a few Cooley tags on cars--one is definitely a judge. I think a place like Cooley might work for someone with a lot of initiative and realistic expectations.

As someone who has a relative currently in enrolled in one of those lower tier schools, I think you're right about the student's expectations. She wants to come back to her small hometown and practice law. She is content to make a lower salary because she knows the cost of living is lower. A $50-60,000 salary will go pretty far in her hometown. She has also done her research about which state's bar to take, since we live relatively close to 4 states. She will be ok, however a couple of her classmates believe they will be recruited by big time down-town Chicago firms.

I'm tired of my Alma Mater pumping our more graduates every year, who do nothing much but disspate my pool of clients further, then having the cohones to ask me for money while I still have student loans!

Not one dime.

Me neither! Though I would happily give money to other parts of the school and my Theta Chapter.

I was thinking about starting a thread about that.

I refuse to donate to my alma maters. They call and mail me a few times each year asking for donations. While I appreciate my alma maters, they have lost their damn minds thinking that I will donate when it already costs an arm and a leg to attend these schools and I am repaying student loans.

Generally speaking, that is why many schools receive relatively small and inconsistent donations from graduates who graduated 1-15 years ago and receive most of their money from 20+ year graduates. Again, generally speaking, people need years to get settled, repay loans if they have any, and do whatever else they are doing. We also have to either like what the school is doing or believe that our money will help change some things.

I think this would be a good new thread.

I just spent he weekend with one of my BFFs from high school. She graduated from a third (or fourth?) tier law school in 2009. It took her a year to find a job and she now works in disability law. She recieves no benefits and if she loses the case the firm does not get paid-even if she has spent a year on the case. Is it not standard practice for lawyers to get some benefits?? In veterinary medicine it is well known that you should get your CE, most or all of your health insurance, AVMA dues, vacation, liability insurance paid for. I also get a 401 K and disability insurance (my boss is pretty generous, I also can go anywhere for CE-even europe:)). It just blows my mind that she gets nothing especially having a professioonal degree. And to spend hours and hours on a case and get nothing. She spends many of her weekends working, reading over medical records (which this weekend I had to interpret some of the medical acronyms for her on the plane). Is this typical??

sorry should be Europe:) -what is up with the editing function? It doesn't seem to be working lately or can you only edit once these days??

It is becoming more typical. It sounds like they hired her as an independent contractor with a fee split if she wins. Firms can do whatever they want with new hires right now. The market is glutted. Some firms are taking advantage of that. My current boss believes that all firms will go this way.

I'm currently looking for another job as quickly as possible, and if it's not in law, so much the better. I'm sick of management. I've had one good boos in 16 years and he left to open a real estate company. Two of my bosses had serious drug/alcohol problems. I've had enough. The pay sucks. The hours suck. I ask myself on a weekly basis why I thought law school was a good idea.

I am worried that vet. med. is heading this way:( Luckily, most vets do not want to work emergency-crappy hours and too stressful for most-both of which are catching up to me:(
Good luck with your job hunt KDCat:)

Don't you have this problem with many degrees not just law? MBA, MD, IT, RN

:(

It seems like currently the thing to do is get a MBA. I have tons of friends who are doing/did it.

Yea, I'll be going after mine soon. The MBA is "the new BBA," so it's becoming more of necessary degree than an "enrichment" one.

Have you come across graduates of online MBAs applying for jobs, and how they're perceived?

It depends.

There are a few programs that are completely online (or 1-2 weeks on campus, and the rest online) that are awarded the same degree as the brick-and-mortar programs (ex. your MBA doesn't say iMBA or Onlien MBA). Those seem to be faring well.

The Devrys and UoPs of the world, though, still don't get much respect, from what I've seen.

ETA: At this point in my career, I'm probably more suited for a Professional MBA. For those, I've noticed people working while earning the degree, doing internships, and transitioning into an updated role post-graduation. Those who go straight through (ex. 5 year BBA/MBA) seem to have the same issues as BBA-only grads.

The problem with the MBA is that it is a generalist degree. In most programs, you have a class or two on each topic; lots of breadth, no depth. I think this general curriculum is useful for people with non-business degrees, because we learn a bit about finance, accounting, econ, etc., that we perhaps haven't had before. In fact, nearly everyone in my program was a scientist, engineer, or IT person of some sort, because of its location near lots of related businesses. Most of them were people who wanted to go from IT guy to IT manager or researcher to research manager or what have you. For these people, the actual program is far less important than just having the letters.

For someone with a BBA, they need to think a lot more about what they want to get out of an MBA, and really look for a program that specializes in that thing. Many schools offer the MBA with some sort of concentration, but you should still have a good idea of why you want the MBA and not the Masters in Finance, Masters in Econ, etc.

So, I happen to live in a city that has quite a few programs of both types; some are a good fit for general managers, others let you concentrate on one area of the business. The part-time programs are structured specifically for working adults, in both their scheduling and their curriculum. If, with all these choices, someone decided to do a DeVry or a Kaplan online, it definitely raises an eyebrow. For a hiring manager, it may not be a disqualifier, but it is certainly something to ask more about.

This is a good observation. These days I can't even edit once. Since I edit everything, it is really messing with my posting. :)

I don't know what life is like for MBAs.

Based on my observations of friends and family, MDs and RNs usually have bad management because they hire RNs or MDs to be the management and they're not trained for it. My friends who are MDs who are not getting benefits aren't independent contractors; they are partners. They have an equity stake in their group practices. (Law firms are starting to make people responsible for their own benefits and employment taxes AND not making them partners.) Some firms are trying to move RNs to an independent contractor status with no benefits, but they have enormous turn-over rates. Nurses don't have to put up with that, and most won't.

IT doesn't seem like its gone the independent contractor route at all. At least not around here.

There is a huge glut of MBAs in the Detroit area and there has been for quite a while. As I noted earlier, my MBA ex-husband noted probably 8 or 9 years ago that companies were promoting JDs into business executive positions over MBAs.

In this area, a large number of IT people, especially programmers, are contractors. They usually work through a contracting agency though, not independently. Many times, they get hired in as a contractor first and if they are good, then they get hired as a direct full time employee. Independent contractors are usually people who are well established as experts in the field (professors, former CIOs, etc.). I'm trying to avoid the contractor world because I couldn't stand knowing that I had a job only for 6 months or a year and then would be looking for work again. Contractor is a complicated word in IT because a lot of companies outsource their IT so technically those people are contractors but they are full time W-2 with benefits contractors.

I wouldn't recommend an MBA right now, as the reading I've been doing seems to say you want a degree (even just an undergrad) in something VERY specific. Actuarial science (although I'd rather through myself off a building) would be a much better choice than business. Any of the maths and/or sciences seem to be an excellent choice. The gist I got was they want people with technical training, so although at one point a BBA or MBA might have gotten the job, a math major or actuary would get it now. It makes sense to me. Broad knowledge is great for life in general but it's not great for your job RIGHT NOW. Whereas I've always been a fan of the liberal education, it's not what I would suggest to an 18 year old now. Pick a degree that really teaches one thing thoroughly and well.

And I'd only get an advanced degree if you have a specific plan in mind. Through this thread there have been a couple people talking about law school and knowing exactly where they want to work afterwards and have picked a school appropriate to their needs. The kid who wants to go to law school to be rich is going to have a rough go. IMO anyway.

In my industry (marketing/advertising), the vast majority of the upper-level positions are asking for MBA or xx years of experience. There are very few positions that ask for super specific degrees (ex. Some of my competitors ask for a MS in Market Research).

Whenever I do go for my MBA, it will have a concentration. I think that should make up for the "broad" stigma of the MBA degree in general. It's rare that I've seen an advanced business degree in "regular" marketing or a company in my industry looking for a non-business graduate degree.

After whining about the legal job market, I had offers for 3 interviews in the span of 2 days, and received a very nice offer for a job as in-house counsel for a health care system.

Congrats!

Congrats.