I agree. I see motions such as saying, "So help me God", or "Under God", or putting the hand upon a bible as a cultural formality NOT as an affirmation of belief in a god. I also suspect that maybe OP isn't exactly 100% comfortable with his own belief system yet hence the extreme concern over this issue.

I wouldn't say that. If you are a non-believer, whether Atheist or Agnostic, you (I) begin to really feel like religion is constantly being crammed down your throat. I do notice all the God comments on everything, and Christian statements of faith in particular. Some of it I just have to tolerate (and this is how I feel about the religion'y parts of sorority life I've experienced) and some (under God in the PoA) are personally offensive. When I was going through rush I hadn't fully developed my belief system so it didn't bother me, but I can tell you if one of the nonsectarian sororities were available to me back then, it probably would have been quite appealing. I choose to consider the religious aspects more a testament to the times and not as much about what the founders would expect of their members 100+ years later. And I don't think that's hair-splitting, since sororities that actively wouldn't accept Catholics or Jews back then think nothing of it now.

I agree with DubaisSis. Unfortunately, fraternities are much harder to read than sororities. We have to play on a pretty even field with recruitment so we're fairly transparent on this. I think it is pretty hard to figure out which fraternities are accepting. Really, now one wears their religion on a sign on their chest, and to assume that some one is Hindu or Buddhist is kinda profiling. You might be wrong. I remember a poster on GC saying ATO had a big agenda to turn out strong Christian men, so I think you can add that to your list of Christian orgs. Even in organizations that are welcoming, things can be difficult. I pledged with a Laotian girl who was Buddhist. I found out later that one of our Catholic members threw a fit that she was getting initiated because she couldn't understand ritual as a Buddhist. We were in the South. That little Buddhist is a great AOII, and for spite, she recruited her sister to join her in the chapter so we could have two! Oh the horror! :D

I've mentioned this before, but Buddhism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It would be a rarity, but you could be a Buddhist Catholic.

Jew-Bus are quite common. So much so that we have a slang term for them.

It sounds like the OP is at a school with formal fraternity rush, and while he doesn't want to be "that guy", it sounds like he will have to at least hint at the issue. Do the fraternities themselves mention it? It seems like they should, but I don't know if that is common (whereas I think it is fairly common for certain NPC groups to talk religion by round three, where applicable).

I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.

iLaughed.

Here's one thought: Don't look at national websites for non-discrimination policies. I assume everyone has them, and I agree that doesn't really seem to be the issue here. Look online for the pledge manuals of the fraternities on your campus -- quite a few fraternities have them online now. Most manuals, I think, will have a section on ritual, and there may be some clues, or maybe even a direct statement, there.

Also, the pledging ceremonies (though some fraternities may not call them that) of some fraternities are open, and some of them can be found online. They may also give some indication.

I don't think the problem is seeing a religious creed or motto, a church, a pride flag or anything of that nature, but having to personally repeat it (like in the PoA) or having to state something of religious nature in ritual.

She's talking about fraternity/sorority things and how prevalent the mentions of God are, not her day to day life.

And to go on a tangent, I didn't realize until after my mom died how if you get a gift in late April/May clerks always ask "Is this for your mom?", the constant marketing of the holiday, etc etc etc. You can't escape it for a period of about two months and let me tell you it really effing sucks, especially on the first go-round. I'm not saying get rid of it, just that sometimes people are inconsiderate and have no clue that they are being so. This all to say, I don't think many of our founders were being inconsiderate or discriminatory when they wrote very Christian-centered or God-centered rituals. It simply did not cross their mind that anyone lived life any differently.

General Comments...
 

I"m presuming that you aren't considering any groups with Christian in their full name. Other than that, the only ones that I'm familiar with that require belief are Kappa Sigma (which has already been mentioned in the thread) and Omega Psi Phi (which I'm guessing isn't a group in the Formal Rush, being NPHC).

I'd like to add the suggestion to check with National Fraternity websites. My service fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega, for example includes in the National Pledging Standards "Pledges should be made aware that the Official Fraternity Initiation Ritual contains references to God and a dedication invoking the name of “Our Common God”.", however religious belief is not required...

I would like to point out, especially for the ladies that there are a number of Masonically based fraternities, and I would think all of them would require a belief in a Supreme Being.

This is what I was trying to say upthread. I think it's important to live our VALUES, but I also don't think that means we have to live them in the very literal way in which they were put down on page.

If some groups still actually require statements of belief, that's one thing, but to compare two rituals side-by-side and count the number of times "God" appears in each one would be futile in determining which group is more religious.

Masonically Based gets tricky to figure out. Alpha Phi Omega's main founder was a Mason and the original titles (in the 1920s) for the President and Vice President for chapters was Grand Master and Deputy Grand Master (with the National Officers being Supreme ...), but in the 1930s, the titles were changed to be less esoteric. I believe there were other parallel changes at the same time, but I won't get into that. Of course for APO, belief in a supreme being was functionally required for brothers as long as prior scouting membership was required (until 1967)

Absolutely. And once you hit phrasing in the ritual like "Our common god", trying to figure out whether that requires theism, theism + agnosticism or nothing at all gets even trickier.

And conversely, for the Masons, Great Architect of the Universe would be used rather than God.

If I thought homosexuality was an abomination and destroying our country, yes, every time I saw a pride flag I'd probably be annoyed and feel a bit assaulted. Of course, I don't so that's a moot point. The difference in accepting the day to day existence of Islam in the UAE is it IS a Muslim country and there is no separation of church and state. If I choose to live in a country (I'm no longer there, by the way) that lives under a particular religion's mandate, I can suck it up. I actually found the existence of Islam in the UAE less pervasive than the Christianity everywhere now that I'm back in the states. And that's in the heathen state of California. I can't imagine the religious culture shock I'd be having if I was in the deep south.

As this discussion continues, I would like to modify my suggestion to the OP. Don't mention it at your first rush events, but at some point you can say something reasonably innocuous like "I'm not a religious guy. Is that going to be a problem?" You don't have to go into a diatribe of your belief system, but saying something like the above will shoot up a red flag to a fraternity where it IS an issue. They may ask for more information about what you mean by not religious and at that point I'd probably lay out a short description of your beliefs. I wouldn't use the word agnostic because a lot of people don't know what you mean.

I'll tell you right now that while organizations have that clause, it doesn't mean each individual chapter feels that way.

Right.

And it doesn't really get to the OP's concern:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilgiant2016 (Post 2141524) On one hand I see non-discrimination policies, yet many reference God in mottos or creeds. Please understand that I don't in any way disrespect anothers' beliefs but feel it would be a waste of their time to rush them if there is no way I can, in good conscience be a member. In no way do I want to know initiation secrets, but rather, would I be able to take the oath at FIJI or Beta for example without lying, as I will not compromise on a lifetime commitment.

Are there organizations with non-discrimination policies that also require a belief in the big-G Christian (or Jewish) God?

Um actually it depends. I have heard GOATU, God and Supreme Being all used in varying contexts. I have also heard Almighty Father used.

Of course not, but for some Christians who are looking at others it is. The whole point of my story is that each chapter may have a different level of acceptance of "different." in the South and other parts of the Bible belt, being openly agnostic/atheist, even in chapters that don't require a profession of faith may not be accepted.

Again, this isn't an issue of the brothers accepting him/giving him a bid or not. It's an issue of he doesn't want to take an oath he doesn't agree with. Even if the fraternity whose official aim includes turning out "upright Christian men" has zero members who go to church, he'll still need to take vows and oaths that conflict with his beliefs.

You are right 33girl. I am not worried yet about getting a bid or not. That will depend on whether or not I get along with the people in fraternites, and I am trying not to worry about that until closer to college.

I did text someone from the college and the groups that I see myself in the most right now seem to be okay with non-religious members. He assured me that his organization wouldn't have a problem with me. It is good to know that I will have options.

Thank you for those that respect my desire to not betray my values during pledgeship. I am taking this seriously so I want to give the fraternities the best of me. I now feel more confident about bringing it up casually.

I understand the issue of not wanting to take an oath when you don't believe in the underlying God, but you can't really divorce that from the acceptance of atheism/agnosticism by members of the groups you are hoping to join. You'll never make it to the point of making said oath if the people standing between you and the oath are repulsed by the idea of atheists/agnostics. I use the term repulsed because a recent survey of americans showed that people ranked atheists with rapists on level of trustworthiness, which just shows that average religious people do NOT understand those with different beliefs than their own.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ts-we-distrust

This opens up a whole different can of worms, but AOII Angel is right. A LOT of Americans would be more cool with saying you are a Zoroastrian than an Agnostic, which by the way is not the same as Atheist. I myself have never understood why people feel the only thing between them and mass-mayhem is the threat of hell. I guess religion is super important to some people if it really is keeping them from murdering random people.

The school that I am going to attend is known for being fairly intellectual and there is a good religion department. It is also known for healthy debate and it is known for having a libertarian spirit.
In my short time I was there, I met a few people in fraternities that were not all Christian, and at my favorite fraternity, I know that at least two members consider themselves to be atheist/agnostic/humanist as well. They were more of the scientific skeptic type (like me) than the political ban the national anthem type. I see myself fitting in there. I am just not assuming that my current favorite group will give me a bid, or that I won't connect with some other group better, which is why I asked the question. It is true that a lot of people distrust "my kind" but I am not going to hide who I am for anyone, especially when my actions do not hurt anyone or break any laws. I have many Christian friends, and am considered to be one of the most moral members of the bunch. I am a great friend, loyal and thoughtful so I think I would be a good brother. I am a little worried that not everyone will get to know me and pass judgement on me, but those that do will see that I don't mean any harm when I say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

Perhaps an example from my chapter can help.

We have one openly atheist member. There were parts of the ritual which require oaths, but he simply put this in as a cultural aspect rather than a religious aspect. When asked what he is, he says a Jewish Atheist.

Lil, I know exactly what you're about. I wish you the best of luck, and I think you'll do just fine.

Sounds like you are going to the right school for you. I doubt you'll have a hard time finding the right fraternity, either. Talk to the brothers that you've already met and ask them if they had any issues of conscience while pledging themselves to their fraternity. I'd bet they'd know what you were talking about.

As a Christian, I have never understood that either. In fact, I've never understood the idea of hell as a threat period. Thankfully, I grew up in a part of Christianity that just didn't look at things that way. (And I've also never understood the idea of being offended that someone says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas.")

Lilgiant, you show a great deal of maturity, Good luck, and I for one want to hear from you again from the other side or rush/pledging/initiation.

Regarding the happy holidays thing, I'm Christian, but I say happy holidays if I'm not sure about the faith of the person I'm speaking to.

Maybe this will help!

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh....php?t=120149&

Thanks for linking that - I thought I had made a note about Delta Chi's founding on it, but apparently I did not!

To the OP - it seems unlikely that your personal religious beliefs will significantly impede your joining a fraternity (the organizations that require a statement of belief excluded of course). What you need to decide is if fraternity membership is worth swearing an oath that is to God, contains the phrase "so help me God", taken over a religious text, or the like. If this is a non negotiable for you, most organizations are probably going to be out (obviously I cannot speak for all groups' esoteric rituals). Regardless, I would encourage you to participate in recruitment and, if you receive a bid, try it out for a while before you decide if that is non negotiable for you. You may be more open to viewing such a statement in the historical context rather than the literal after being a member for some time. Or you may not, that's up to you.

I will add, for your information or future members with this question, that Delta Chi chapters are supposed to ascertain whether or not a member is willing to swear an oath to God before he is initiated, and there is an alternative for those who are not willing to do so. It should also be said that I don't believe many of our chapters actually ask this, but it is an option. Chapters with questions about this should contact the Headquarters office.

And just to make clear to Lilgiant, in that thread pshsx1 indicated that Sigma Phi Epsilon requires belief in a higher power.

Since none of us can speak concerning the esoteric rituals of other groups, I would be very hesitant to say "most." While I can see the basis for assuming it would be the case with most fraternities, it's still an assumption that may or may not be true of fraternities in general or of the fraternities on his campus in particular.

Valid point, though from conversations with friends in many different organizations I do feel comfortable saying you're safer assuming their will be religious references than not. Regardless, I still think he should reevaluate his position on whether or not he can view such an oath in its historical context after trying out membership.

There is a huge difference, though, between taking an oath with your hand on the bible and signing a statement of belief.

Agreed. I think it's very well established in this thread an others make that a requirement.

Thirty years ago, I was eighteen years old, an atheist (as I still am), and I pledged and initiated KS. So I can sympathize with your situation in general, and I can also make some comments on Kappa Sig in particular.

BTW, I'm not pushing KS nor am I discouraging you from it. At least from what I saw of the Greek system, most or all of what I'm going to say about KS would be true of other groups as well.

Greek societies claim to be all about building character, promoting ideals, doing philanthropic works, leadership opportunities, etc. And each national organization claims that its societies mottos, rituals, etc. are so deeply meaningful and influential in its members lives that the members share a commonality across all chapters -- the idea that, for example, a KS from chapter X would, if he were to meet the brothers of chapter Y, immediately feel a sense of kinship and likemindedness with them.

My experience is that Greek societies are not just primarily, but overwhelmingly, social organizations devoted to making friends, having fun, etc. And from what I saw of my chapter versus other KS chapters, the changes I saw various societies on my campus go through during my time there, and stories I heard from high school friends who had gone to other schools, it seems to me that each chapter of each fraternity pretty much makes as much or little (usually the latter) as it wants to out of the "official" ritual, dogma, etc. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of those things.

I had the same discomfort as you, and for the same reason. As an atheist, I didn't want to take an oath professing belief in a supreme being. I told the KS members that. They assured me, "just take the oath; nobody really takes it seriously." The compromise I finally settled on was to tell them, "as long as you understand that I don't believe in God, I'm not going to change my mind on that, and I'm only saying the words to fulfill a requirement to get into your group, I'll say the words when the time comes." They agreed, I said whatever it was that had to be said (IIRC, I did quite obviously roll my eyes at that point in the oath :) ), and nobody ever mentioned it again. During the entirety of my active membership in KS, nobody ever said anything like "as a Christian group, we should be doing such-and-such." No visiting pastor, priest, rabbi, imam, etc. ever set foot in one of our meetings. No church ever contacted us with an invitation to attend services. Et cetera.

Look, I definitely know where you're coming from. Many Christians assume incorrectly that as atheists, we don't have any beliefs which are important to us, and therefore we should have no objection to endorsing Christianity (since they think we don't care one way or the other about it anyway). It can be incredibly frustrating dealing with people like that. But if I can offer a small piece of what little wisdom that I, as a gray haired old fart, have accumulated ...

You can't win every battle that comes your way. Some battles are unwinnable, some just aren't worth fighting, and there are some small battles you've gotta walk away from to save your energy and effort for the things that really matter. If you're going to be an atheist and live in the USA, you're going to have to put up with some Christianity from time to time, including some of the less attractive aspects of it, including ignorance, bigotry, and hostility from some believers. I suppose that if I wanted to fully "live my atheism," I might refuse to ever use cash because of that "in God we trust" motto, and I might walk out of the room every time I find myself in a "group prayer" situation at a public event. But some things just aren't worth the trouble -- and this really strikes me as one of them.

It's also worth mentioning that KS's ritual requires a somewhat gruesome death penalty for certain offenses. I'm pretty sure that nobody in my chapter took that part of it seriously either, although I suppose you can never tell ... ;)

Is this issue worth the trouble to you? Only you can really answer that. But bear in mind that out of those self-identified Christians who take the oath happily and without even blinking, probably well over half are in the category of "oh, I suppose I'm a Christian, my parents say I am, I'll really have to give it some thought someday."

To sum this up:

1) Your happiness in a particular fraternity is going to be far more due to the personalities of the other members and the group's ability to function in campus society than due to the ritual slogans and mottos.

2) I wouldn't take anything too seriously that a national organization says about its fraternity's "core values," etc. And that includes KS. If you already know what college you're going to, you have some familiarity with the Greeks there, and you know that particular KS chapter is full of seriously religious people, OK ... but if not, don't rule it out just because of what the KS national website says. And of course that goes for every other fraternity.

Apologies for the length -- just my $0.02 worth.

EDIT -- I skimmed but did not fully read the thread before posting, and now see that the Deep South was specifically mentioned a couple of times. My experience was in the South, FWIW.

Perhaps it's true of NIC groups as a whole -- it wouldn't surprise me if it is -- but we don't know how many chapters are on the OP's campus or what those chapters are. So, even if it is true for the majority of NIC fraternities, it may not be true for most fraternities with chapters on his campus. Hence my hesitancy to say "most."

This can be insulting.

I hope the OP finds a chapter (and a fraternity) that takes its ritual seriously with or without a religious component.

*******

Delta Sigma Theta is not a Christian sorority and there is ongoing debate regarding whether it is a Christian-based sorority. I, and some other Sorors, believe that it is not, despite how many chapters and Sorors operate. Some of my Sorors around the world are not Christian but most are Christian. That is tied to the history of Delta and the history of Christianity in the African diaspora. That is not to be confused with Christianity being the foundation of Delta. A nonChristian will not be accepted at many collegiate and alumnae chapters especially if she is as gungho nonChristian as many Christians are about Christianity. That is something that is a case-by-case basis because it really depends. In the Kappa forum the link to the 'nalia vendor (it is a Delta licensed vendor) had a DST Ichthys pin (or ring?). I can see a lot of Sorors wearing that pin (or ring?). That does not mean that we are a Christian-based Sorority and that every woman has to be a Christian pre- and post-initiation.