Anyways getting back on subject here......

I thought that there was another set of talks recently, and that we walked out and basically said that the plan was l\flawed and we weren't going to agree to it. At wi\hich point I say, why not stay and explain the fatal flaw and fix it? I'll do some more research.

Doesn't that oil that is being consumed by YOU and every person in America, have to come from somewhere? Is the global environment going to be hurt any less if that oil comes from the North Atlantic or the Gulf of Mexico or the Middle East. Basically you have a not in my backyard mentality. You are still going to use just as much oil as you always did and you dont really care if the environment is damaged as long as it isn't the environment in your back yard.

Okay, there's a serious difference between drilling in uninhabited desert areas (which was were most of the domestic and foreign petrol is harvested) and offshore drilling, which threatens human, non-human animal, and plant life, now isn't there? :rolleyes:

The Bush administration, in less than 11 months at the helm, has already approved serious amounts of OFFSHORE drilling, the destruction of wetlands and forests for development, and has increased the maximum level of arsenic that can be allowed in the drinking supply.

That is what GWBush has done to the environment, thank you very much. Yes, everyone has hurt the environment, but now with a president who not only endorses the all-out destruction of the environment for various commercial uses, it'll just be that more tragic.

Don't blame me, I voted for Nader...:D

Skip, why are you assuming that we all use as much oil as we always did? I take public transportation to work and rarely drive, but when I do, it is in my little, fuel efficient car. I would never in a million years drive an SUV because aside from guzzling gas and having a terrible impact on our environment, they are dangerous to smaller vehicles on the road. IMHO, they are the epitome of selfishness. So please do not make a blanket accusation.

When I was in college, I was THE biggest Democrat that ever existed. I got FIRED from a job because they felt my flower child image didn't fit the mold. Actually, I was a semi-hippi working at a raquet club and REFUSED to go out with the owner. HOWEVER, since becoming a "respectable" member of the community, (this means I pay TAXES and a LOT of them) I have learned my money goes to all sorts of things I am adamantly against. At this point in my life I AM A REPUBLICAN! If we need to drill for oil to break the hold of foreign interests, if we have to KILL peope to insure the safety of our sons and daughters, if we have to ANNIHILATE the green crosseyed toad to build a communications lab, hey, I vote YES! Just WAIT till you open your paycheck and you see your hard earned money going to social programs with NON EXISTENT PEOPLE on the roles collecting money.

BUSH IS GREAT! HOPEFULLY, WE WILL PULL OURSELVES OUT OF THE PIT CLINTON AND HIS CRONIES HAVE FLUNG US INTO!

It's easy to be a democrat when you aren't supporting a family and paying taxes! I have a ZILLION stories that anyone under 27 would be unable to relate to (unless they were raised with an exposure to a Republcan view of economics)
Now here's a little political humor-
What's the difference between democrats and
republicans? Democrats are fun loving "cest' la vie" type people who party and make love. They sleep in a doublebeds. Republicans are all uptight because they work so hard and come home exhausted...they sleep in seperate beds.

THAT'S why there are more Democrats!

i'm just curious as to what youre refering to? In 1992, when Clinton took office, the unemployment rate was 7.5 percent. Under Clinton, unemployment was at a 4.3 Percent low in January of 2000 -- A 41-year peacetime low. Employment was at an all-time high. 133.4 million Americans worked in December of 1999 that's 64.5 percent of the working-age population, the highest percentage of people working ever. 17.8 Million New Jobs were created under Clinton. Inflation was at it's lowest since the 1950's.

So what pit did he put us in :confused: are we talking "i did not have sex with that woman stuff ;)

I hate to say it but we all do things or purchase things that will inevitablly hurt the environment or human rights. I don't want to step on everyone's views and I'm only harvesting friendly debate...however I for one am thankful for SUV's because they allow my family and myself to get around when it snows. I can't begin to tell you how many times I got stuck in the snow in my small vehical and had to rely on my father's Blazer to rescue me ;)

I suppose we should all stop purchasing diamonds because of the whole funding of terrorist groups in sierra leon (spelling?)! OH! And don't buy anything Sapphire this Christmas because the largest supply of Natural Sapphires is...from Afghanistan ;)

I think what JustAMom is referring to is the fact that Clinton was well aware of the power that was being built up and aware of Al Quiada (Spelling?). He didn't do anything.
Shortly after the 9/11 tragedy I was reading a USA TODAY that was left on a table in the food court. The front page story referred to how Clinton's "See No Evil, Know No Evil" (and those are my words) policy put us in the position we are in today. If we had stepped up to the bat when they first bombed the Trade Center and had attacked Tanzania, we'd be farther along in our battle against Terrorism.
But that's just what the story was about and I happen to agree. I had NO idea there were these types of people out there that HATED us and AMERICA with such passion that they'd bring the greatest tragedy to our homeland.
I suppose this is just all harvested anger, but that's what I think LOL.

Hootie :)

justamom may also have been refering to the fact that economic policy takes five to ten years to be effective. So basically what Clinton takes credit for was actually done by Reagan and Bush (Sr.) and our current recession is thanks to none other that Mr. Clinton.

Is anyone else suspicious of Bush and Ascroft's military tribunals? These secret military trials have no place in an advanced democracy. Military tribunals have been used as the perferred form of "justice" in military dictatorships in Latin American during the 70's and 80's and more recently as the "justice" system of the Taliban. Do we really want to use the same "justice" system as military dictators and uneducated religious fundamentalists?

I do support the war in Afghanistan and the Operation Enduring Liberty. Many people our age are out there fighting for our freedom and safety and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them. Also, I commend the Bush administration's policy of food drops and other aid for Afghan civilians. i hope that the people of Afghanistan (esp. the women) are able to build a stable democracy for themselves.

Just my 2 cents as an International Studies major :rolleyes:

I wouldnt trust our legal system to handle a case of that nature. All we need is Johnny Cochran defending Osama and using the 'chewbaca' defense. :eek:

IMO if its not a US citizen under question, they are not subject to the same rights and garuntees as actual citizens.

Now this is something I dont support. Well, its not that Im against it...but I will go to my grave *wishing* we would come to the aid of starving, homeless, and abused people in THIS country. There is an obscene amount of people in the good ol USA who have nothing....and I guess I will just always think that before going to the rescue of every country in the world...mostly countries who HATE the USA...we should give aid to our own. It would be nice to see a food drop here...after hearing how many millions and millions of people dont have anything.

I agree with that 10000%!!

Beef,
I wouldn't trust our legal system either but there is the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Netherlands that was set up to handle these types of cases.

Also, less than 0.5% of the federal budget goes to foreign aid so it really isn't like we are trying to save every starving country in the world. In the case of Afghanistan, there is a need to rebuild their country to prevent future Osama bin Laden's from using their propaganda to rally support against the "evil" United States

Aiiiii! You sound exactly like my parents!! :)

I have to say this...I have considered myself a democrat since I was old enough to form my own opinions on issues. To this day (I am 30) my dad has ALWAYS been telling me, "You'll change. I used to be liberal, yada yada yada, but you'll become a republican someday." I always laughed.

You know what? For once, my dad is wrong. I really, honestly believe in my heart of hearts, that I will always be a democrat, or, more accurately, liberal. As attorneys, my husband and I fork over wads of $$ with every paycheck, that's true. Honestly, though, I can deal with that.

Here's why -- I have always believed that there are some things that are more important than money, for example, my reproductive freedom, the ability of children to receive a public education free of religious influence, separation of church and state and the environment. On all of these issues, I agree with democrats and not republicans, 99% of the time. As humans, it is our duty to protect that goofy little frog, because it is our duty to take care of the earth -- if we don't, and if we continue to abuse it as we have been doing, we're all going to be screwed. I will happily shell out extra money to ensure all of these things in which I believe, even if that means that someone is abusing the system and getting money he or she doesn't deserve.

Aw, shucks. I'm going to go outside and hug a tree now. ;)

You're like my idol, lol, can i come and hang out with you ;)
I too believe I will always be a liberal democrat even though my background is more republican.

Of course you can!!

When you graduate law school at the top of your class, we can both go work at the public defender's office and save the world!
:)

I'm sure it's easy to be a Democrat when you aren't supporting a family and paying taxes, but what if you are left of center, like my parents? They're in the highest tax bracket, fork over a huge amount of money for taxes, etc., but they didn't support Bush in the past election. In fact, they're pretty freaking "liberal". I know their money (and mine, since a good part of my "income" goes to the government) goes to things which they (and I) don't necessarily support, but changing parties isn't going to change that. The world is so much bigger than your pocketbook, regardless of how big it is. It includes those people whose sons and daughters are getting killed so that your sons and daughters may live freely or safely, that poor little toad, and the fish floating in the Prince William Sound belly-up from one oil spill too many.

There is a pervasive myth which I think fuels a lot of this anger about tax money going to people who don't "deserve" it. It's the myth of the welfare mother with 5 kids, unmarried, having children just to stay on the dole...and it just ain't true. I know FOR A FACT that most of the people on public assistance aren't there because they're lazy or want to live off the government (it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to do that on a public assistance check, by the way). People get hurt on the job, can't work, and don't have insurance. Husbands leave. Kids get sick, and parents have to quit their jobs. Parents get ill. Not everyone has the nest egg to get back on their feet after such a setback, and that is why I am afraid that once the 911 turmoil has settled some more, that Bush and his cronies will try to alter public assistance programs. For every "stereotypical" welfare mother, there are more families who didn't want to get on welfare, disability, or food stamps, and I think most Americans realize that. And THAT is the reason there are more Democrats.

::::jumping off my soapbox::::

Once again, please don't blame me! I voted for Nader! :D

Valkyrie-we must be twins-I am always agreeing with you. BTW my parents too are republicans, I am about to be 30 and as a veterinarian shell out tons of $$ to the govt. but I can also deal with this.

"Republicans want a government so small that it fits in your bedroom."

When did "liberal" become a 4-letter word? I take it as a compliment.

I care about civil rights for everyone, and I care about the world in which I live. I'm willing to shell out a little more money to protect those rights and to protect the planet. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with that, and I won't accept insinuations that it's something bad. Yes, maybe I'm optimistic, and a bit on the idealistic side, but really, the world could use some more idealists...

"Better a bleeding heart than none at all..."

HOOTIE AND LYRELYRE-EXACTLY! Plus, his main focus was on Hollywood (don't forget he was considering working with the "Dream...Corp" the one wth Speilberg etc) His own people have said the head of security couldn't get a meeting with him.
Rather than discuss issues pertaining to peace and security threats, he directed them to work on patent infringement and copyright laws. He was/IS a mess. His weakness as a leader is so apparent his old staffers have distanced themselves. Even Giraldo Rivera has washed his hands of Clinton. OH WELL...
I still have strong sentiments for children of deadbeat PARENTS and believe we need to help those who are infirm. BUT, I get so angry when people line up and stick out their hand for money without EARNING it when they are physically and mentally able to do so. One more note-As a small business, we are TAXED to death! Our assistant that we "let go", is working on the weekends, and files unemployment on us...Of course I don't blame Clinton for all the current economic woes, but in general, democratic policies have created a system of abuse. They want to create more and more governmental jobs to increase the number of employees nation wide who will vote Deomocrat. I'm not going to post again on this topic because nothing ANYONE says will change one person's opinion on this board. You have to live it before you can see it!

I have a heart; many say an exceedingly large and generous one. Whether a person's priority is the duckbilled platypus or the unborn child is not what is important to me. What is important is that people research and learn so that they can make INFORMED decisions about the issues. It's the people that just want to jump on whatever bandwagon is nearby that really make me want to lose my lunch. (Ex: How many of the college age kids riding around with "Free Tibet" on their bumperstickers really have a clue about what's going on over there? How about the World Bank protestors; how informed were most of them? Some people just like to be troublemakers.)

\

:rolleyes: Give me a break. If the guy had won fair, I still wouldn't be happy but he would have won the RIGHT way and I could get over it.

As far as Clinton's escapades, I really could care less. I didn't vote for him to worry about his personal life (yes it is public but like I said, I don't care) What he does for the country is my concern.

and for the record, "what if's" don't count...Bush is the one in office. Let's deal with that.

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JAM hitting the nail dead-on as always! ;) I was personally never a Democrat but my dear, sweet (trust fund baby) college boyfriend was proud to call himself a "bleeding heart liberal". He hated G.H.W. Bush; thought him an Ivy League snob from a rich family (pot calling the kettle....) When he got accepted to law school he told everyone who would listen how he was going to graduate and become an attorney for the ACLU because of "the passion with which they protect our rights." I guess once he put in all that time in law school he figured that the ACLU had enough passion without him since last I heard he is making a very high six figures as an entertainment attorney in L.A. :rolleyes:

Actually, that oil wasn't drilled (at least, not the fields I'm discussing) until the Reagan/Bush era. I know that in my area, Bush signed SPECIFIC bills allowing offshore drilling in the Gulf. Also, I don't drive, so don't you dare call me a hypocrite. Get your facts straight before you start calling people names. :rolleyes:

Ever been in a bus, car, or a plane. If so then you are still using oil. Do you grow your won food? How do you think the food get from the farms to you dinner table?

Unless you are living in a cave, growing your own food and making your won clothes, you consume oil. You are definitely a hypocrite. Everyone in this country uses oil. You probably couldn't even go one day without it.

Hey Skip, am I missing something? Since when is an ad hominem attack a compelling argument?