oh God help us all!

Haylee, I considered submitting for Playboy several times, once during college and a couple times shortly thereafter....(hell, if I wasn't so darn old I'd still like to do it!!!!!) But it would not be worth it to me to revoke my membership in Chi Omega, which I know would be the case. I know for a fact that if national were to discover it, they would take my badge and remove me from the rolls. In fact even my own chapter guarded this kind of thing pretty seriously; we had a sister who was chosen to be in this all-girl revue they had at a local bar (it wasn't a strip club but I think the revue was topless or close to it.) She took it to the chapter since she knew it would be well-publicized anyway; this particular revue did a lot of publicity and t-shirts were available with your favorite girl on them.....the chapter gave her the choice, either the revue or Chi O. Thankfully she chose Chi O but certainly it would have been equally understandable if she had not. It is a personal decision and I am not so sure I agree with the chapter's stance; maybe on a local level like that where everyone would know who you were, but if you were to pose for Playboy and not reveal your affiliation what is the harm? I guess the only way national would find out would be if someone "ratted" on you and they checked it out.....

I would say go for it....unfortunately once you get past about 24 Playboy doesn't consider a woman "babe material" unless she is already a celeb. I am turning 30 in May and I find it very depressing that I am considered "past my prime" when actually I think I am a lot "hotter" now than when I was 19. If you get chosen and your chapter says "It's us or them" then at least you have the choice. And if you do choose your chapter, at least you know that Playboy wanted you and felt you had the right stuff.

Good luck!!!!!!

Amen.

ou know, back to miss november up there. I swear, that girl has the prettiest smile I have ever seen. And guys, you know it must be pretty cause I stopped looking at here DD TA TA's long enough to think to myself, wow, what a pretty smile.

I dont read it for the articles.

Representation of your respective greek org:

Well, heres my humble opinion. As long as she doesnt have her letters splattered all over the bio, I really dont see the foul here. And really, even then, if I was a national officer I wouldnt for a minute try to explain myself to anyone. I would be very, very proud of her. I'm sure others wont see it that way. What a opprotunity for them, even if they opened the door by opening their blouses. And its not as cut and dry as that but I hope you catch my drift.

To Miss November, Miss. Lindsey E. Vuolo. (34dd, 24, 35 whose turn ons include back rubs, sense of humor, intelligence, confidence, true love, good kisser and a nice butt) I think you are a very pretty lady and I hope that this will make all your dreams come true.

P.S.- I dont like cats either.

It's like a lot of other things in life in which there may be perceived benefits (modeling career, cash, whatever), but there may also be adverse consequences.

Is my memory faulty or didn't Vanessa Williams have to give up the Miss America Crown when it was discovered she had posed in Playboy? That didn't seem to hurt her career in the long run, though. How many former Miss Americas are as well known as she? A few, I suppose, but not many.

So, understand the potential outcomes and then make the decision that makes most sense for you.

Kiss your pin goodbye
 

I think you could probably count on losing your pin. This is a story about a Tri-Delta at the University of Oklahoma who was asked to return her's for posing for Playboy.

http://www.daily.ou.edu/issues/1996/...processed.html

Re: Kiss your pin goodbye
 

Getting the ACLU involved? Geez. If Tri-Delt's code of conduct is anything like ours (and I'm sure it is), there are very clear-cut definitions of what is and is not acceptable for a sister to do. I'm quite positive that baring yourself for the world to see falls under one of them. :rolleyes:

This Playboy bunny needs to turn in her pin and move on. She made the decision to pose naked, and now she needs to face the consequences. Why is the fact that sororities don't want their members to be portrayed as "easy" such a hard concept for some people to grasp? :confused:

Did the ACLU get involved when Vanessa Williams had to give up her Miss America title? It's the exact same thing. She had to sign a contract saying that she would do nothing to undermine the reputation of the Miss America pageant. She broke that contract when she posed nude. This chick did the same thing, and I'm nearly positive that her signature is on a Tri-Delt national form somewhere promising virtually the same thing that Vanessa Williams did. So, how is it the sorority's fault that her membership is being revoked?

Take responsibility for your actions, people. And the key word is YOUR. :p

I think it's dumb to risk getting kicked out of your sorority, but I'm also all for posing.
lol

So.
Hell.


If you've got it, flaunt it.

:)
Phi sig is too important to me to risk it tho.

Vanessa Williams had not posed for Playboy. She had posed for Penthouse, and the layout was of her in compromising positions with another female. There is a definite difference between Playboy and Penthouse, and there is a definite difference between posing alone in a centerfold and posing in sexual contact with another girl.....and the Penthouse spread was definitely not becoming of Miss America.

Everyone has made some good points. I can't believe the ACLU has been brought in.....there is no way they will win. A sorority is a private organization and is allowed to set standards for membership. It is not a fundamental right of all people to belong to a sorority or fraternity. That girl should definitely just turn in her badge and forget about it.

Actually, Vanessa Williams didn't pose for any magazine. She posed for some "artistic photographs" while she was in college and never signed a waiver for the pictures to be published. I never saw the pictures and never want to so I can't comment on the content.
I seems that posing nude for any magazine would result in more problems than benefits. Why risk it?

Erika and Cream,

So, I guess my memory WAS faulty -- thanks for the clarification. I agree with Erika's other evaluation(s).

She has done pretty well since.

Seriously ladies, why would you want to keep another woman from taking an opportunity? I understand that you think they should pose for a magazine that the uptighter parts of society view as more socially acceptable, and if this is true, I am sure that if you called those girls on the phone and offered them a modeling gig in one of those magazines in lieu of Playboy they would take it.

However, since neither you nor the sorority seems to going out of the way to further the girls modeling careers, perhaps you should not be so judgemental or inclined to pressure them into complying with your world view.

However, I am willing to entertain someone making an argument and proving empirically that posing for a magazine such as playboy is a henious crime. Or is conduct unbecoming a person.

Also, please introduce me to some of the "easy" playboy models. Since that is the appearance you believe they give. I, and I'm sure KaBillymac would love to meet and hang out with them.

Sorry Billy, but yours was the first name that sprung to mind.

hhmmmm
 

what about Maxim?

Once again, the Farrah Fawcett example. On her A & E Biography, they mention several times that she is a Tri-Delta. If the org wanted to disassoiciate themselves with her, I'm sure they would have been on the horn to the network to have them take it out.

Yes I agree with this. If your a famous alum you can get away with posing for playboy. If your not famous I bet the sorority would kick them out.

Maxim is not the same issue, it's like a male Cosmo.

To paraphrase my, brother Daily Show host Jon Sturart "Maxim is porn for men to timid to buy porn."

Word.

Personally, Maxim makes me ill. I think it is really insulting to men, honestly. The writing is at the level of a 16 year old! It assumes that all men are desperately horny morons who haven't gotten beyond constant partying and debauchery and have to find ways to con women into sleeping with them. And I think that some of the pictorials, while not nude, are more "degrading" to women than most of what I have seen in Playboy, particularly because of some of the commentary. (On the same note I must say that a lot of what I see in Cosmo also pisses me off....not all women are sexual predators dating six different guys at once!!!!)

I really enjoy reading Playboy. It is FAR more sophisticated than Maxim. Actually, I just sent in for a subscription for me and Brent. I think the articles are great, and I enjoy perusing the pictorials most of the time, though I think Hef needs to get a life and realize that not everyone is enchanted by his 7 identical girlfriends. We've bought stuff from Playboy.Com and I even have a Playboy t-shirt!!!! It's gotten me in trouble a few times due to the reactions that I get from guys when I wear it, but I don't care.

I definitely agree with the assessment that celebrities seem to be exempt from the disapproval of their chapters. I mean, what sorority would want to be the ones to say "Yeah we booted Farrah Fawcett!!!" ??? My personal feeling is that a girl should not have to forfeit her pin as long as she does not display her letters in association with the spread and does not present the chapter in a negative light. If she is discreet about it there shouldn't be a problem.....BUT I can also see the other point of view. There are a lot of people who find nude photos of any kind to be offensive and inappropriate, and although I disagree I have to respect their viewpoint. But James and Billy, you guys can come over and watch some Playboy videos with me, ok?:p

HMM I wonder what it is like to be beautiful and be asked to pose nude. Guess I'll never know.

Erika, when did you ever start believing the above statement was not true? That's a pretty accurate description of the male condition. Not pretty but accurate.

Then we get tired of the constant rejection. No matter how smooth you are you still get turned down more often than you actually score. After we get tired, we get married. Of course the bug will often bite us again . . .

As for the rest, I'll be sure to come over and watch some playboy Videos when I hit LA later this year.

Oh, and I get your point of some people being uncomfy with the whole nude thing. But it would be nice if they had a more live and let live attitude instead of trying to force their mores onto the rest of us. How tedious and insulting to our intellegence.

For the record, Playboy is considered a very well-respected literary magazine. The "I just read the articles" bit actually isn't as ridiculous as it sounds - it's a well-written magazine. For example, in Nat'l Forensics League debate tournaments, it's often utilized (by convention) as a 'primary source' for commentary, especially political - not on the same level as, but alongside, the Economist and etc.

Now - as far as Maxim goes, don't feel insulted for me - as a relatively intelligent man, I can appreciate it for what it is - escapism, pure and simple. It's appeal is on a level purely associated with primal urges - sex, beer, friends, etc. Guys need these things - these are what make us who we are, and while that might not make sense to everyone, it's the way it is.

Now come on you guys.....everyone (yes even women believe it or not) has the baser appetites in life. But there is more to all of us than that. That is the problem I have with Maxim.....I guess it is just the maturity level. I'm sorry but most of the men I know, while they love wine, women and song just as much as anyone else, do not operate at the level and language of that magazine. That's why I think Playboy is so infinitely superior---it appeals to the hedonistic side and pays tribute to man's (and sometimes women's) basic instincts but also exhibits some intelligence and sophistication. MAYBE (just maybe) my opinion is skewed due to my advancing age and the advancing age of the guys I hang out with-----I must admit, that Maxim is definitely representative of the inner workings of most of the guys I knew then!!!! I guess my bigger point would be that a lot of women I know who forbid their men to bring "girlie" mags into the house heartily support Maxim because there is no nudity. And to those women I say "DUMB!!!!!" First of all, who cares if he looks at pictures? What's the real harm? Do you think he's going to dump you and go off in search of Miss November? Please. Wouldn't you rather your man check out the girls of the SEC and then pick up some really cool jokes than read a lengthy treatise on How To Train Your Girl To Fetch Your Beer, Polish Your Bishop (ahem) & Clean House Like Your Mom And Then Cheat On Her Without Retribution....? WHICH brings me to a related topic.....ladies, what is your view on "porn" in general? Do you care if your man reads it? If so, why?

I think part of the beauty of Maxim is that it doesn't take itself seriously, and that it knows what it is. Honestly, you need an escape from serious thought, and Maxim provides it. It's beer, girls, cars, sports, and that's about it - and it's a good thing to just keep things on that level sometimes.

I have no problem with my guy looking at porn. It's curiousity...it's a stimulant....and hey! if he gets turned on, it works out for me in the end. :D

The only problem I see with porn is the type that is violent towards women. It's a psychological fact that the more men (or women for that matter) see violent sex, they more they think that coersion (sp?) is an ok way to get sex. We dont' need more people administering the date rape drug, using alcohol to get women into bed, etc....

Seriously though, I am envious of men and the magazine aimed at them. Maxim and Playboy are fun, (sometimes) intelligent, hedonistic reads. I mean, "Sex, beer, friends, sports, gadgets..." that's good stuff! When I read magazines aimed at women, I mostly see pictures of women and pretty much get told that I'm not perfect enough, not thin enough, don't flirt well, need to use X brand of makeup, etc.... Sometimes women just want to read about "stuff" too ya know!

My 2 cents.....

James,

This concept may be hard to grasp for some guys, but most girls don't really think very highly of other girls taking off their clothes for a mens' magazine. I'm sure there are some women who don't have a problem with it, but, for the most part, showing everything you've got in public is viewed as more than a little distasteful in society's eyes.

Sororities hold their members to certain standards; high morals is one of those standards. When a woman joins Delta Zeta, she is told what is expected of her by the organization up front. One of those expectations is that she will represent her sorority in a favorable way. If a girl doesn't want to comply with DZ's "world view", as you put it, then she doesn't have to join. No one is pressuring her to wear our badge.

If a sister decides to pose nude, no one is stopping her. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that DZ is going to view her decision poorly and take steps to remove her from the organization. We don't want someone to see a centerfold and associate DZ with a Playboy Bunny.

It's not a question of being "uptight" or "prudish" or any other derogatory term -- it's simply not the type of magazine to which the sorority desires to be linked. It's not the reputation we're looking for, and I think most reasonable people understand and accept that. To me, it's an admirable position to take and I respect my sorority for trying to uphold our founders' high ideals in this way. :)

As for "furthering the girls' modeling careers"... Quite frankly, that isn't Delta Zeta's job. We aren't a talent scouting service or a PR agency, and it isn't up to us to find a girl a modeling gig just so that she won't pose nude for Playboy. :rolleyes:

There's one big point here that needs to be addressed: there are many ways for a woman to get her modeling career going if she is dedicated and talented. Getting naked for Playboy is not a girl's only option.

I agree 100% with DZRose93!

You can do whatever you wish, but you cannot do whatever you wish and be a member in good standing.

Each organization gives you the tools to make better decisions, it's what you do with that information that counts! I wouldn't support someone in posing...definitly not a Greek and definitly not a KD!

Yeah. Maxim is fun, but its kind of juvenille. I only get it when I really like the cover. The only magazine I find completly repulsive is Stuff. It tries to be funny by being insulting but it just comes off like they're jerks.

ok, i dont see why a female posing in a mens magazine would get them kicked out of their org. To me, and this is just my opinion, it would be stupid. Its her decision. As long as she is holding up the ideals and being a member in good standing...who cares? We have to remember that most of our orgs. ideals go wayyy back to the mid 1800's and early 1900's, in a time where it where if women showed an ankle it was considered bad. Things have changed, and truthfully even though they might not admitt it, i think a majority of woman if asked to WOULD pose for playboy. Many of the pics I have seen have been very tasteful and who knows what she would do with all the money. I dont think it says your easy? If you think that someone is easy cuz they pose in a mag, arent you being a lil judgemental? And by this couldnt we also say that anyone who poses for a PETA billboard nude with just animals wrapped around her is easy (can already hear the Britney Spears comments....FORGET ABOUT HER, and think of all the others who have posed for PETA). I just dont think her org should judge her based on this. If shes been a good memeber she probably always will be no matter what she will do or has done.

I think that the difference b/w the PETA ads and playboy-type pictures are the way in which the women were photographed and what then the picture is used for.

You cannot deny Playboy is sexually suggestive and the PETA ad is not. Pornography is a totally different subject. Ads use sex to sell and playboyish pictures sell sex.

You can do whatever you want, but since you pledged membership to your organization, you should respect that vow and try not to embarass/disrespect the organization that has done so much for you.

so basically you want all of your members to be puppets and followers.

That is the same thing. Playboy uses pictures (sex) to sell a magazine, just like PETA uses it to sell animals rights.

I laugh when guys talk about the literary value of Playboy, Maxim, etc. Are they serious!!!! Playboy is published by a guy who brags he has slept with over a thousand women and routinely takes 4 and 5 to bed with him at the same time. Hefner should be the STD poster boy.

As far as porn goes, if a guy is single then I guess its his choice. But if I were married I would rather he save his "energy" for us.

On the other hand, there is too much date rape, etc. on campuses not to wonder whether porn plays some part by fueling male fantasies and portraying women as sex objects.

No Shultzz, I would hope that we all can strive to be honorable, beautiful, and highest.

If I wanted to be mediocre or join a group that didn't care if its members were of a caliber above the rest I wouldn't have become a KD.

ok, i see your point...

but tell me this.... how someone is direspecting them by doing that? If you can point out to me anywhere in the bylaws or a purpose where it says you can do that and its disrespectful, then fine, but i dont think they say that. I think its the THOUGHT by some that its wrong. Why isnt she stilll the high quality that she was before?

Im not gonna lie and say that playboy doesnt sell sex, it does. And to a point PETA is selling sex to say... hey, wearing fur isnt sexy. I mean you have to admitt that they could have found other ways where a woman or man was fully clothed to do that. But instead they used celebrities to show theyre sexy bpdies off. Have you seen them ask Camren Mayhiem to do one? Nope. And for for that matter Mademosielle, Cosmo, Vogue and etc. sell sex just like playboy does. Ive seen male bodies in Glamour posed just like some pics of women in Playboy.

You should have respect for your org., but your org. should have respect for you also. Why should they even become involved in business that they dont have to be in or belong in. No one is saying to her, het you have to tell us your an XYZ so we can put it in bold print. And do you really think ppl and the greek system as a whole is going to look down on an entire org., b/c some chick decided to pose in playboy? If it does, Im not sure I want to be part of it and itd be a sad day for the system.

Ok, So how is posing for Playboy and losing one's membership any different than a collegian getting an acting job which requires partial or full nudity. They film this movie on their summer break. Its released in the fall. They return to school. Everyone sees them naked in the film.

But... they have now also acheived a degree of main stream celebrity...

So...

Is nudity in "mainstream" celebrity ie: movies, television, theatre (ie" the blue room) MORE acceptable to a GLO than nudity in more "devient" forms such as Playboy, et al?

And really, how do they differ? They don't.

Playboy requires nudity.
So did the member's acting job.

Both are art.

Both are going to be "rated" R.

How is it different? Is it differnet? Why should some members be held to one standard while others are held to different ones simply because its better publicity?

Has anyone ever asked their NH or IHQ about what the policy would be, or are we assuming what policy is, by how we feel and by what some orgs have done?

Her sisters care. Her sorority cares. The point is this: you CAN'T be considered a member in good standing if you aren't upholding the ideals of your sorority. For many sororities, these ideals include a moral obligation, which means that you agree to distance yourself from situations that would portray you - and the sorority of which you are a representative - in a bad light.

Say you have a sister who is loved by everyone in her chapter, has a 4.0 GPA and is always on time paying her bills. That's great! :) That means she has fulfilled 2 of her obligations to the sorority: academic and financial. However, if she poses nude for Playboy, she is NOT a member in good standing because she has failed to live up to the third type of obligation: Moral.

Even though she may be a financially-responsible, intelligent and sweet girl who gets along well with her sisters, she has still fallen short in the eyes of her GLO because she has failed to meet her moral obligation to the sorority. She has conducted herself in a manner that goes against the basic principles of her GLO and, for that reason, she is no longer in good standing. You simply can't pick and choose which tenants of your sorority you want to uphold. You either uphold all of them equally, or you get out. It's as simple as that.


It doesn't really matter to me if this sounds "judgemental" or not. Sororities are not public entities. They are private organizations which are founded upon very specific ideologies. If girls don't share the ideology of an organization, then they don't have to join. However, when they do decide to join, they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to follow the creed of the GLO. Nor should they be shocked or angry if they are terminated from the organization for going against those basic principles.

It doesn't matter if your organization's ideals were founded 100 years ago or 10 years ago. The ideals themselves are timeless, and they should be respected and upheld no matter how long ago they were created. For Heaven's sake, it's not like the GLO is asking its members to wear floor length skirts and long-sleeved shirts! The sorority is simply asking its members to act in a way that is considered suitable in polite society. And let's face facts: if being nude in public was considered socially acceptable, then there wouldn't be so many laws regulating pornographic materials, including magazines like Playboy.

As for my comment about girls who pose nude being considered "easy", I am not saying that all of them are. However, I AM saying that they are perceived to be by many people in society. And that simple fact is why sororities do not want their members posing nude. There is a very real stigma attached to the act of revealing your body to the public eye, and sororities do not want to be associated with that stigma.

UMgirl - I'm not trying to offend you with this post. I just want to give everyone an idea of where your sororities may be coming from on this issue, and why they have the feelings that they do. :)

BUT-- "Morality" is not easily defined.

What is moral to me, may not be to someone else, and vice versa. And I don't think even within our GLOs its defined well.
Which is the issue--that Nationals can "look the other way" for some members, and revoke membership for others.

Campus climate is a factor too. Perhaps a larger one.

Where I went to school I don't see this as being an issue. (I speak of the times when I was there, I don't know how it is now)
Being in Los Angeles, being in a liberal city, county and state, being so close to Hollywood. I don't think it would have been an issue. If the member didn't say "I'm an XYZ!" in the publication, chances are very few eyebrows would be raised. Not when the entire student body (gross exagerration) has their own headshots and is not so secretly seeking their big break... Not when our "Greek Legend" yearbook features pages and pages of girls in their bikinis... etc.

So if no one at your school thinks its a big deal, chances are the issue would not be raised with nationals... etc.

But I am with ErikaXO on this issue. I don't see the big deal, and I don't think someone else, ie" founders back in the late 1800's can decide what my morality in 2002 should be. Use common sense, do what is right for you, what portrays you in the best light, and by doing that, you will be portraying your GLO well in 99 out of 100 cases.

I think it is all B S! There were no clothes in Eden until Eve talked that dumb ass Adam into eating that stinking apple!

Women are built different than men and vice versa!

Women like to look at me and men like to look at women! They get the hots for each other have sex, get married, have a kid, get divorced and work the rest of their lives! That is the American way:)

Yes I get Playboy, I look at the Pictures and admire a beautiful air brushed woman. But I like the cartoons better!;)

If you beleive God made woman then it must be a wonderful thing. It is like looking at a beautiful painting or building.:D

If I had it, I would flaunt it and be proud of what I had! Abeautifl or pretty woman is a work of art!:)

excuse me?
 

Lexi,

You have so much pride in your membership in Kappa Delta, and that is wonderful.

But being proud of your organization does not mean that you should run down other groups while praising your own.

Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong, but are you intimating that if other sororities don't conduct their business in the same way as KD, they are "mediocre"? To the issue at hand, are you saying that a group that doesn't kick a Playmate out for posing (fyi, in case you've forgotten, I am an ASA, same as Lindsey who we've been discussing) doesn't care about the caliber of its members?

I apologize for the harsh tone, but your post really disturbed me. You seem to be saying that your group is on a level above all others in every regard. That type of attitude toward your Panhellenic sisters is not honorable, beautiful or highest.